Cunning Wish doesn't grab kill conditions. Living Wish does. Living Wish also fixes your manabase by allowing you to grab a Fetchland or something similar, and allows you to play a stronger maindeck manabase by grabbing specialty lands like Wasteland, Academy Ruins, Volrath's Stronghold, or whatever your build sees fit to run.Originally Posted by holkenborg
You can't dismiss Living Wish based strictly on the fact that Cunning Wish has a few points it's better at. I mean, hell, you could make the similar argument that Vedalken Aethermage is better than Tarmogoyf in Landstill because Aethermage pitches to Force of Will, can be played as an instant, and what the hey, it'll go fetch a Meddling Mage in a pinch. The counterargument would be that Tarmogoyf's impact on the game blows Vedalken Aethermage out of the water. To a degree of much less absurdity (Because Living Wish's average impact level isn't much higher than Cunning Wish's), you can apply the same logic to Wish versus Wish.
Besides any well built landstill deck has a good consistency rate at pitching blue cards to force of will with or without the utility usage of cunning wish.
Living wish does have alot of utility to it that cunning wish does not have which has been stated in previous posts. I personally think an 4c landstill version with living wish can be quite strong.
Hello evryone, i wanted to post a list again, this uses : Gifts Ungiven, which is really awesome
The only downside on it is that its quite slow
// Lands
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Island
1 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
3 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins
// Creatures
2 Exalted Angel
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
// Spells
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
1 Gifts Ungiven
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cunning Wish
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
1 Life from the Loam
// Sideboard
SB: 1 swords to plowshares
SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Gifts Ungiven
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 1 Return to Dust
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Fact or Fiction
What do you guys think about this ?
About the Wish discussion: I do not need to wish for a kill. I need to wish for control. I do get the point that Living Wish gets better stuf (I do, honoustly), but I prefer keeping mana open for counterspell / do something else (pitching it to FoW is just a tiny tiny pro) and use it to draw another control spell. I play 2 kills (Garruks) and lands and that's about it. In another version I play 3 Hoofprints of the Stag and that's just fine. I never wanted to wish for a kill, but always needed more control. The kill will come eventually.
Besides any well built landstill deck has a good consistency rate at pitching blue cards to force of will with or without the utility usage of cunning wish.
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I disagree with that statement agent. I come across ALOT of hands with landstill where I am constantly taking chances with fow in hand and a brainstorm with a fetch in play. Ideally sac the fetch "Reduce chance of draing a land and shuffle for more then likely shot of hitting a blue card." Brainstorm
-3lands
-mixed color cards
-1 wish
All these are horrible for FOW. You never want to remove a STRONG spell atm to get rid of a spell literally 2-1 yourself.
You can disagree if you want. I was mostly talking about in general and really it depends on the situation. Also I'd rather pitch a strong spell to force of will to win the game or lead to a win if there is no other blue card to pitch to and/or if there is no possibility to cast that particular blue spell.
What's wrong with removing a strong spell to Force of Will? Indicating that you're doing anything else would be indicating you're playing weak blue spells in a deck that doesn't have enough slots to be playing weak blue spells. The general idea is to pitch whatever spell is weakest at the time.
Why Gifts over Intuition? Intuition is cheaper on mana. You can still go for LftL+ Wasteland, Ruins (+ E.E.) or Monastery. Additional to your Gifts piles you can fetch 3 Swords/Deed/Standstill... w/e.
3 Swords seems very questionable.
2 Exalted Angel seem underwhelming. You have Cunning Wish into Pulse of the Fields if you really need a boost life wise, it seems like it just gives your opponent a good target for their removal.
Crucible has bad synergy with Deed and once you have Green and Intuition/Gifts- Loam seems much better.
Personally I would:
- 1 Gifts Ungiven
- 2 Exalted Angel
-1 Crucible of Worlds
+ 2 Intuition
+ 1 Pernicious Deed
+ 1 Swords to Plowshares
and then in the Wishboard add a Smother or something instead of the Swords and a Teferi's Response or Stifle in for the SB Gifts Ungiven.
People have been trying to make Gifts Ungiven good since Legacy began and have failed, because it's bad. Intuition is better for setting up a card system in your yard or grabbing exactly what you need. Meditate and Fact are better for sheer card advantage. Gifts tries to be all three and just flops at it, badly.
Ok this is my build with wasteland, as in Italy no1 even consider a build without wasteland
Draw:
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Fact or Fiction ==> my meta is so aggro, 3rd or 4th FoF is unthinkable
Permission:
4 Fow
4 Counterspell
2 Stifle ==> With 2 Land recursion I don't soffer from wasteland that much.
Controll:
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Sword to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Crime / Punishment ==> 5th Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
4 SLOTS:
2/3 Tombstalkers
0/2 Crucible
0/2 Life from the Loam
24 Land:
4 Mishra
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
1 Island
SB - Standard
3 Eng Plague
4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate
1 Garruk
I would like to have an advice about the 4 open slots and some opinion about the list: ANY ADVICE WILL BE WELCOME!!1!!11!ONE!
Consider that I play in a very very very aggro Meta, the average Deck has Tarmo, FoW and 52 other cards, sometimes 16 + Creatures (but I want to be able to do my job in a random MU )
Thank You all for commenting this list as I want to rebuild my Landstill deck.
Excuse my errors, English is not my native language. I'm Italian.
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise....
You have to give Engineered Explosives more love: its just better than Crim/Punishment most of the time because you can split the cost over 2 turns making you less vulnerable to Daze and manadenial. You will only very rarely use the Crime part of C/P so that this is not a great argument.
If you play in a very aggro orientated Meta, I don't see a reason not to play Tarmogoyfs of your own in the last 4 slots - they are a reasonable 'removal' or 'counter' for opposing Goyfs while being gold against any other creatures. They'd be definetely better than Tombstalkers IMO.
Also, if your Meta is very aggro-orientated there's little reason to play CoW / LftL except if people play suicide style decks: they are just pretty slow against aggro and the effect not that great. Generally speaking I prefer a split between CoW and LftL though as LftL is much better early on but doesn't cut in the long run (you don't want to skip your draws).
On another note, there's no reason to play Wastelands in an aggro Meta as your manabase stability is way more precious than the eventual win-more lock: your aggro-opponent can function on very little lands so that you won't be able to screw him easily.
Here's a list that is quite suited for an aggro / any Meta:
Humility is a beast, your manabase is very stable, DoJ isn't too bad either beause it can produce some early chumpers + cantrip to stall for a turn at least while being a wincondition later.Code://// 4c Cunning Landstill (by Marius Hausman and Clemens Wolff) /// Maindeck (60 cards) // Lands (25) 4 Flooded Strand 1 Polluted Delta 2 Windswept Heath 4 Tundra 2 Underground Sea 1 Tropical Island 1 Scrubland 1 Savannah 1 Plains 1 Island 1 Tolaria West 4 Mishra's Factory 1 Academy Ruins 1 Wasteland // Winconditions (5) 1 Life from the Loam 1 Crucible of Worlds 1 Eternal Dragon 2 Decree of Justice // Permission (8) 4 Counterspell 4 Force of Will // Card Advantage (10) 4 Brainstorm 4 Standstill 2 Cunning Wish // Removal (12) 4 Swords to Plowshares 4 Pernicious Deed 2 Humility 2 Engineered Explosives /// Sideboard (15 cards) 3 Engineered Plague 4 Meddling Mage 3 Extirpate 1 Blue Elemental Blast 1 Pulse of the Fields 1 Slaughter Pact 1 Enlightened Tutor 1 Seed Spark
If you don't want to go that route, I'd recomend to play 2 copies of Garruk Wildspeaker main as he distracts focus of your life total and produces blockers. Also, Vedalken Shackles and a reduced non-island count (read only 4 Factories and maybe one other non-island) would be really nice in an aggro meta as your opponent basically can't win through it... he has to overextend and so makes your Deeds better.
Also, I'd reconsider Diabolic Edict in an aggro Meta as it won't hit the biggest threat most of the time. Ghastly Demise or Condemn might be better inclusions: they are more mana efficient.
Depending on the kind of aggro that is played in your meta, Counterbalance (+ Sensei's Divining Top) might also be a worthy inclusion to lock the opponent out after handeling the inicial assault.
Following two versions are incorporating above cards and might be a nice starting point for you:
Code:“The Vorosh Deck 2k8.2” By Bardo 4 Brainstorm 4 Standstill 3 Sensei's Divining Top 4 Force of Will 4 Counterspell 3 Counterbalance 2 Spell Snare 3 Pernicious Deed 3 Engineered Explosives 2 Vedalken Shackles 4 Tarmogoyf 4 Mishra's Factory 4 Flooded Strand 4 Polluted Delta 3 Underground Sea 3 Tropical Island 4 Island 1 Swamp 1 Academy Ruins Sideboard 4 Engineered Plague 3 Dark Confidant 3 Hydroblast 3 Extirpate 2 Krosan GripCode:Landstill from the 'Meditate in dedicated Control' Thread by Deep6er Lands -23 1 Island 4 Flooded Strand 4 Mishra's Factory 4 Polluted Delta 4 Tropical Island 3 Tundra 3 Underground Sea Enchantments -10 3 Counterbalance 3 Pernicious Deed 4 Standstill Spells -17 4 Brainstorm 4 Force of Will 3 Meditate 4 Swords to Plowshares 2 Fact or Fiction Artifacts -4 2 Sensei's Divining Top 2 Vedalken Shackles Planeswalkers -2 2 Garruk Wildspeaker Creatures -4 4 Tarmogoyf
I love low cost, but I find Crime very tempty (Freud would quote this).You have to give Engineered Explosives more love: its just better than Crim/Punishment most of the time because you can split the cost over 2 turns making you less vulnerable to Daze and manadenial. You will only very rarely use the Crime part of C/P so that this is not a great argument.
I guess I'll use Crime untill I loose a game because it is not an EE, then I'll drop it :p
I think that a build should not have dissinergy, so even if I love Garruk I'll never use more than 1, and I woul never use Shackles or Decree, because I want to use my deed anytime I think the time is right.. I want full advantage!
This is the reason why I want to try Stalkers.. Everyone is running Tarmo, everyone is crazy about him.. I just think that tarmo does NOT belong to this deck,
while Stalker does.
I don't want to loose my Tarmos because of my own Deed or EE.. If this is not true I would build a deck also with Jitte and Academy Ruins for recursion.
For this and a lot of other good arguments, I think I'll run a singleton Life From The Loam, since I don't want to loose a turn to "setup" my Crucible.
Crucible is Good with Manlands and Wasteland, but it is too much fragile:
Krosan Grip, Abolish, Discard, Counter, Dredge or even a random Fateseal effect.. Gosh Batman, MY CRUCIBLE CAN EVEN DIE FROM MY OWN PERNICIOUS DEED!
Life SURVIVES AND AUTO RECURS, dredgind food for stalkers and Manland, fixin my manabase and at a cheap cost (I usually Dredge 2 times MAX and use Life only when needed.. I would even love to see it Extirpated!)
Crucible in the end needs 2 things I cannot provide enough:
Protection and some dedicated lands.
I quote for truth, if you skip the part about COW / LftL split: If you think 1 is superior to another, run 2x!Also, if your Meta is very aggro-orientated there's little reason to play CoW / LftL except if people play suicide style decks: they are just pretty slow against aggro and the effect not that great. Generally speaking I prefer a split between CoW and LftL though as LftL is much better early on but doesn't cut in the long run (you don't want to skip your draws).
On another note, there's no reason to play Wastelands in an aggro Meta as your manabase stability is way more precious than the eventual win-more lock: your aggro-opponent can function on very little lands so that you won't be able to screw him easily.
Humility scares me with WW manacost.. Decree is antisineric with Deed.. But I'll test them when Stalker (very long) test phase is over.Humility is a beast, your manabase is very stable, DoJ isn't too bad either beause it can produce some early chumpers + cantrip to stall for a turn at least while being a wincondition later.
Ghastly is not very good with Delve, but I'll test it (read above :) )
I don't like Ghastly btw.. I want edict to make my opponent sacrifice the Big Bad Furry Monster that survived Pernicious Deed (or use it on Mongoose when Tarmo is on the stack, then STP tarmo)
Conclusion:
I don't like very much some advice you gave, but I found your post full of point to discuss, so very usefull. Thank You.
Excuse my errors, English is not my native language. I'm Italian.
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise....
This is the wrong attitude in my oppinion (IMO): if you are Deeding, you are in a bad sitation which will convert into a neutral (read favorable for you) board state afterwards and you will trade your Deed against their board: you've just created Card Advantage (CA).
If you have a Tarmogoyf or Vedalken Shackles on the table and you still have to activate a Deed (doesn't happen very often) you will still create CA because your opponent was forced to put more stuff onto his board to outbalance your Goyf/Shackles.
The thing is that Stalker is much more a finisher than Tarmogoyf... which is not good IMO: Landstill does not need things that are only good in the lategame as it is the control deck. If it has reached the lategame it has achieved its aim and so virtually won (and a real win will ensue sooner or later once you reached the lategame).
Now Goyf on the other side is a huge beater in the lategame (he's very often 6/7 because of Standstill/Deed and Engineered Explosives), even larger than Tombstalker and can still play defense early on which makes him clearly supperior IMO... a thing that is better in the late and early game - count me in.
Also, do know that I also am a Landstill player of the 'old' more controling school (see my list) and am therefore sceptical towards Goyf, but if you argue objectively, Goyf really seems to be better than Tombstalker and definetely is fine in some builds (e.g.: Bardo's 'The Vorosh Deck') giving you an entire new dynamic: you can now play aggro-control.
The thing is, once you reached the midgame, CoW is supperior to LftL by giving you that land a turn to reach the lategame without you having to sacrifice your draw step. It's also much better to support a chumping Mishra's Factory, hence why I run the split. Also, its much easier on the mana which is something that can't be disregarded as I often tend to not want to fetch green mana early on.
Did you have a look at that manabase? It's hell of consisten for providing different colors and Marius really did a great job at crafting it... double white is never an issue by the time you want to cast Humility if you fetch/play smartly.
Also, your second point sounds a little stupid: DoJ tokkens are so worthless that you will never have a problem to sacrifice them to a Pernicious Deed activation if you get to reset your board in exchange for that... they are free! Also, if you are in the later stages of a game (where you want to use DoJ as a wincondition) you're already in control of the game and should have found other ways to deal with stuff than Deed if you really need to win quick.
Why wouldn't you just want to get rid of that Tarmogoyf, ignore that Nimble Mongoose until its 3/3 (takes some time against most builds, esp. against those with CounterTop main) and then trade it for a Mishra's Factory or kill it alongside some other stuff with a Deed/EE activation?
My fault. This is also true when you have Monastery ready.If you have a Tarmogoyf or Vedalken Shackles on the table and you still have to activate a Deed (doesn't happen very often) you will still create CA because your opponent was forced to put more stuff onto his board to outbalance your Goyf/Shackles.
I think that evasive ability of Stalker and the fact that he can survive s.Maw, Smother and Deed makes him a better choice.Stalker is much more a finisher than Tarmogoyf and so on
Also consider that (obv IMHO) it is more probable that someone hate vs creatures is oriented versus Tarmo, Jotun and Utility Guys like Bob or Bop..
About MishraChump you are 101% right.The thing is, once you reached the midgame, CoW is supperior to LftL by giving you that land a turn to reach the lategame without you having to sacrifice your draw step. It's also much better to support a chumping Mishra's Factory, hence why I run the split. Also, its much easier on the mana which is something that can't be disregarded as I often tend to not want to fetch green mana early on.
About loosing you draw step I think you are partially right:
I usually Dredge no more than 2 times, so I REALLY loose a draw every match or 2.
We have different gamestyle maybe.. But I think that a Fetch can grab G whenever I want.. and with 6 fetches I can find G when I want easy.
Yup, that base is solid and good, I was just considering MY manabase atm..Did you have a look at that manabase? It's hell of consisten for providing different colors and Marius really did a great job at crafting it... double white is never an issue by the time you want to cast Humility if you fetch/play smartly.
Also, your second point sounds a little stupid: DoJ tokkens are so worthless that you will never have a problem to sacrifice them to a Pernicious Deed activation if you get to reset your board in exchange for that... they are free! Also, if you are in the later stages of a game (where you want to use DoJ as a wincondition) you're already in control of the game and should have found other ways to deal with stuff than Deed if you really need to win quick.
when I'll test more white in the deck I'll obv modify the manabase.
DoJ is strong but why is it stronger than Stalker? I am asking since I never tested it.
Excuse my errors, English is not my native language. I'm Italian.
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise....
I've been testing the following perturbation of Bardo's Vorosh build, with a aggro heavy metagame in mind (Goblins, Affinity, Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy and Vial based aggro decks seem to come up and challenge Threshold these days in my meta).
I took out the CB-Top engine because Threshold is declining in my meta... also, Top was a bit too slow for my taste. Ponder came in as a replacement for Top (I've thought about FoF, but it seems a bit slow, maybe I'll try it as a 2-of). The white splash is there mainly for StoP (which deals with the fatties Angel/Dragon Stompy and other decks throw my way). It has the added bonus that, on a full moon, I might cast EE for 4. I started with one random Tombstalker maindeck as an alternate kill when facing an Extirpate fiesta; it was so good I added another one.
Here's the list... comments, as always, are greatly appreciated... not !
Draw (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Ponder
Control (8)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
Board Control (10)
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles
Creatures (6)
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
Mana (24)
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Hydroblast
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Swords to Plowshares
Do you feel 4 Ponder are necessary?
Do you miss Stifle?
Ever tryed Meddling Mage in SB?
I think is needed.
Your opinion about Vod. Shackles?
I would cut 3 Ponder and make room for 2 Stifle and 4th StP.. Just my opinion.
Bonus: Noob Question: I steal a Grizzly Bear with a 2 Counters Jitte on it.
What happens? What if Jitte has no counters?
tnxx
Excuse my errors, English is not my native language. I'm Italian.
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise....
Don't bastardize your manabase for one card, Swords isn't as strong when you have Shackles and Deed. Not sure if Explosives is great here, I guess it's a meta call, but where I see it being best (Thresh), there isn't any around. I'd almost always rather cast Deed. Is Force of Will + Counterspell enough? Don't you miss Spell Snare?
Is Plague really needed against Goblins? I haven't tested my matchups against Goblins yet, so I don't know how fast they are to be honest, but I'd think between Shackles, Deed, Swords, Hblast, and Goyf, you shouldn't be too far off. Also, I'm pretty sure your Dstompy matchup is TERRIBLE, so look into what you can do about it, but Hydroblast is definitely the place to start.
EDIT: Rinello: They can respond by pumping the Bear, making it an illegal target for the Shackles, if there is no counters, carry on. Equipment stays on afaik, it only comes off if the creature leaves play or is no longer a creature (ex: manlands)
EE is there since decks like Goyf sligh, Belcher and small cc aggro-Vial decks (Mother of Runes, Goyf, Grunt, etc.) are still present in my meta.
Against DS, I like answering fatties with StoP, leaving FoW/Counterspell to counter Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon or equipment if need be. The DS match-up isn't that bad, but I agree it can certainly be improved. I've mostly tested the match-up online, since I'm the only one who occasionally plays DS in my meta.
As for bastardising the manabase, I don't find -1 Tropical Island, -1 Island, +1 Tundra, +1 Plains that much of a problem/bastardization. Shackles and Deeds answer most threats, but dealing with fatties like Tombstalker, Exhalted Angel, etc. can be annoying/resource consuming when you don't play StoP.
I don't know; it certainly helps and it has the added bonus of being ok vs. Breakfast and the random Elf match-upIs Plague really needed against Goblins?In my testing against Goblins, Deed wasn't that hot, being very mana-demanding and it rarely whipes their board. I usually board them out (with EE) for E. Plague.
Honestly I don't know. Being a Threshold player, I'm used to playing at least 12 draw spells/cantrips, but I don't know if it's that good in Landstill. Until now, I've found them useful.Do you feel 4 Ponder are necessary?
I'm not playing Wasteland and the mana-denial plan and I play 5 basic lands (with 8 fetches), so I don't feel the need for Stifle. Maybe I'm wrong...Do you miss Stifle?
Yeah, I liked them but right now I frankly don't know against what match-ups I'd side them in, since the most common combo deck in my meta is Belcher and I find MM so-so in that case. Again, maybe I'm wrong...Ever tryed Meddling Mage in SB?
Yeah, your reasoning for EE was mostly what I thought, thats fine. I agree answering Dstompy guys with Swords is strong, something you can't do without white very well. I'm just curious as to whether that is worth making your manabase worse (Remember, the less basic islands, the less Shackles actual matters there). Next time I come down to Montreal, we'll test the DS matchup, since its my worst one, and the goblins matchup. I know for a fact that you beat the breakfast matchup with a strong counterbase, Deed/Shackles/EE and Extirpate. Plague for Elves is fine, but in that case, why are you playing this?
P.S: Hey, it's Justin ;)
I really doubt taking out a single Island from the deck (-1 Island, +1 Plains, -1 Trop, +1 Tundra) is going to change anything (most of the time) in terms of Shackles. After testing the match-up with both UGB (Bardo's list) and my UGBw list, I think StoP makes quite a difference. I'm not gonna go on a crusade to convince you here, test it and maybe you'll like it. I think your argument would apply better to lists playing Wastelands (and with a smaller Island count)...I agree answering Dstompy guys with Swords is strong, something you can't do without white very well. I'm just curious as to whether that is worth making your manabase worse (Remember, the less basic islands, the less Shackles actual matters there).
Actually, Goblins isn't that bad with this list (or Bardo's).Next time I come down to Montreal, we'll test the DS matchup, since its my worst one, and the goblins matchup.
Mainly, for the Goblins match-up and to have more answers to EtW post-board.Plague for Elves is fine, but in that case, why are you playing this?
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ASIDE
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Hey Justin, if you're available, there's a Legacy tournament this thursday...P.S: Hey, it's Justin ;)
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