Moat shuts down 5 our of your 8 win conditions. I wouldn't maindeck Moat unless you plan on seeing 100% aggro, and even then, your other lock pieces should be able to do the job.
My reasoning for maindecking moat was that it would give me more time to wreck their board, and when I'm ready to start attacking with my non-flyers, I could sack moat to smokestack.
Here's the thing...
Using Moat to stop legitimate threats in your metagame = reasonable.
Using Moat to "give me more time to wreck their board" = waste of time.
One of the pitfalls to playing a prison archetype is the 'cool' interactions that ultimately don't win the game. Once you have a lock established, focus on winning. A 1-of Moat would be better as almost any other card since it will only randomly do anything useful for you (since you have no way to search it out).
I would recommend dropping it and either a Smokestack or an Exalted Angel for 2x Oblivion Ring. Unless your meta really calls for it, like Arsenal pointed out (if you play against a ton of non-flying aggro).
Fred Bear...
This is what I've come up with so far:
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Kor Haven
4 City of Traitors
6 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Armageddon
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Ghostly Prison
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Exalted Angel
(No SB yet)
I don't win as much as I'd like, heck, I lose to standard and block decks. The findings I've made so far:
I always want another ring, I can't get enough it seems.
I never seem to pick the right lockpiece, whether I want Armageddon, Smokestack, a Crucible, they never come when I want it.
There are people who suggested splashing blue for stuff like Intuition or Academy Ruins, problem is, what you said: they're slow. So my question is; wouldn't an Enlightened Tutor be faster? Doesn't grab you the Armageddon, but it virtually grabs you anything.
Im also thinking of dropping a factory for a plains...
So...any ideas?
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
enlightened tutor is strictly bad in Stax. It is too slow, anti-synergistic with Chalice at 1 or Trinisphere in play. A good Stax player would rely more on playing and tinkering with the lock piece, than wasting slots for tutors to find answers to the board. Most importantly, Enlightened tutor is not a permanent, and is not synergistic in GeddonStax as a whole.
I agree on running ORings. Orings has saved me from a ton of games, and answered many forms of hate. Stax is a prison control that cannot selectively remove permanents, but Oring does this well, and the mana requirements is perfect for this deck.
I wouldn't worry about that. If you really want to win against Standard and Block decks cut the Chalices and maybe even the Trinispheres for cards that actually effect their curve (I don't know much about the current Standard but Winter Orb could be good against Reveillark and Defense Grid out of the board will just wreck FaeriesOriginally Posted by Skeggi
). You should definitely play 4 Ghostly Prison as it is the MVP in every aggro matchup and can even give aggro-control nightmares.
On the issue of not drawing what you need, well all I can say here is that you have to trust in your deck because math says that you will draw what you need more often than not in a reasonable time. Of course you also have to look for ways to stall the board so you get more drawsteps to find what you need. This is especially important in your mulligan decisions. If your hand does not have a reasonable plan for the first few turns, mulligan. This deck often gets hands an unexperienced player would keep because they have a good mix of mana and spells however you have to think ahead and anticipate what your opponent is going to throw at you and whether you can survive that not just whether you can cast everything in your hand during the first few turns.
That's not a bad idea imo. If you drop the Factory you'll still have 8 winconditions which is enough especially with 3 Angels and you'll definitely have fewer color problems (again good because you play 3 Angels and want to support a Kor Haven).Im also thinking of dropping a factory for a plains...
With 2 Factories and the Kor Haven combined with Oblivion Rings I think your defenses against a random singleton Fattie (Tarmogoyf *cough*) are still enough, nonetheless, like I said above, I'd still try to squeeze in the last copy of Prison because in multiples it can simply shut down some decks.
Now @Moat I think some of you are looking at it a little narrow-minded. Yes you shut down some of your win conditions but you should not forget the raw power a Moat brings to the table and with 3-4 Exalted Angels in the deck I think you also should not be too concerned about winning.
@Fred Bear when you say "Using Moat to 'give me more time to wreck their board' = waste of time." you are basically right however more often than not you actually DO wreck their board when Moat hits because all their non-flying dudes have become worthless.
Compare Moat to Oblivion Ring, there will be situations where Ring is even worse in helping you win or even just locking up the board. (Of course I understand that the main purpose of Ring is to deal with troublesome stuff like Deed or Gaddock Teeg, I just wanted to show that there already is a card played in Stax that does not "win the game" or "lock up the board".) The main advantage Oblivion Ring has over Moat that ensures Ring gets some slots is its easy manacost of 2W compared to 2WW.
Concerning Enlightened Tutor I have to say that I tested decks and even played some in tournaments that had the "no-go" combination of Chalice and 1cc spells (Goblin Welder; Swords to Plowshares; Pithing Needle and Spellbombs for example) and I didn't have a big problem yet because a) often Chalice @1 is strong enough that it doesn't matter if you lock out 4 of your 60 cards in your own deck and b) you only have about a 40% chance of getting a Chalice in your opening hand, the chance of also playing it first turn are even lower so more often than not you will be able to play at least 1 1cc spell before Chalice comes down.
However I tested Enlightened Tutor and aside from the Chalice problem (which as I already explained was actually not a problem) the card has a big problem all by itself. It puts the card you are looking for on the top of your library. And let me tell you in this deck this card- (and to a lesser extend tempo-) disadvantage is significant.
"Anybody want some . . . toast?" —Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
This is exactly what I feared about it, wasn't too scared of the Chalice either. Anyway, I've switched a factory to a plains, that does wonders already; 1 more use on a flagstone. I'm even considering dropping 1 flagstone for another plains. 3 might be enough. I'm going to have a look where I can slide in the Prison, thanks for the advice.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Just played a couple of games today with Geddon Stax and I would like to stress the importance that the deck succeeds because of the insane synergy of denying mana to opponents, while playing about geddon effects after a resolved Armageddon. I don't like Moat although currently it answers 80% of the creatures in Legacy. It doesn't end Dragonstompy's Pit Dragon, and Faerie Stompy. I think that Ghostly Prison is a lot better due to its favorable casting cost 2W, rather than 2WW in Moat, which sees turn only at turn 2+. With the mana denial strategy of GeddonStax, I feel that Ghostly Prison is in fact better than Moat. Other white control decks run Moat because they don't have the mana denial strategy as we do in Stax, hence I'm still in support of Prison.
I had tested Enlightened Tutor. It is usually good mid-late game, but by then you should have either Chalice at 1 or Trinisphere in play, that basically does not work well with the Tutor. As Silverdragon often mentioned: it is a slow play, and can your spell can be countered. But most importantly, I think it's not synergistic with the deck with Chalice at 1 or Trinisphere. Assuming you do play it turn 1, then are you forgoing a possible turn 1 Chalice at 1, or Trinisphere (since you've taken up a mana for tutoring). If you argue that the tutor is for the sake of getting Chalice or Trinisphere, then I would rather mulligan into one.
I am never disappointed to see Angel. She's saved so many games by negating Tomb damage and gaping the player life by 8 per turn. She delays the opponent sometimes until the deck finds it's hard lock. I run 3 Angels, and I'm not sure about 4 copies so let me know about if 3 is ideal.
Lastly on Oblivion Ring: I really love this card. It answers about all the threat that this deck faces, while you play out your lock pieces. It answers everything from Deeds, Tarmogoyf, Vial, basically anything that has escaped your lock pieces or pose a threat to your lock.
I love this deck, and I hope Shadowmoor gives us a little more :D
Here's a possible sideboard card, unfortunately it has a mana cost of 2:
Sun-and-Moon Wheel
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant player
Whenever a card would be put into the graveyard of enchanted player from anywhere, the card is revealed and put onto the bottom of that player's library.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
@ Skeggi - Not trying to be a dick, here, but you could get the last Prison by putting the 60th card in the deck
@ Silverdragon - You are absolutely right about Moat. It will often times wreck your opponent. There are very few decks that will be able to handle it maindeck. And I also understand that we play cards that do not 'win the game', that wasn't my point. My point was more to the consistency >> random wrecking from a 1-of. I would be a bigger fan of dropping another card and adding in the second Moat - if the meta calls for it. If my meta has lots of goblins or other aggro in it, then Moat is awesome and offers good redundancy to Ghostly Prison. If my meta has Fairy or Dragon Stompy, Moat would be 10x better as Oblivion Ring.
@ 1-cc Dis-sinergy with Chalice - Just to reiterate what has already been said... Judge it based on the overall power of the 1cc spell in that match-up. Chalice at 1 is one of the best and most consistent plays this deck makes, but there are still several match-ups where Pithing Needle, Swords, etc. etc. are all worth the risk of having dead cards because of their independant usefullness. (And for what it's worth, I found Enlightened Tutor useful in 2 matches in my testing of it - Deadguy/Discard since it 'protects' your search, you can cast it in response to discard, and you can use it to find 'silver bullets'. And some builds of Survival since you don't lose tempo since it 'matches' theirs and you can use it to find 'silver bullets'. I found that neither match-up was worth the amount of sideboard space it requires to run effectively, though.)
Now - to start some 'controversial' conversation - a little thread 'firestarter' if you will...
I kind of feel like this deck has become stagnant in its development. That doesn't mean that I don't think it's developing or evolving with the meta, but I a little disappointed that we haven't achieved any breakthough (outside of getting more people to play the deck). I'm as much a part of the problem as anyone else (I don't mean to minimize the progress of the deck to this point - Machinus, Bane, Silverdragon, Nihil, and too many others to name have done a tremendous job to this point) - I've tested a lot of things, but they are admittedly evolutionary in nature...
Aside - I do research for a living and there is a distinction made between Evolutionary and Revolutionary. Evolutionary changes are made in order to adapt (in my field, you make a product better for a customer and are able to sell it to a broader market). Revolutionary changes are what makes your company a market leader (you bring a totally 'new' product or process to the marketplace). - End Aside
What I'm proposing is that we (collectively) re-dissect the list and make sure that the assumptions hold true for today's meta and answer several questions... What basic deck building assumption holds us back in development? What cards really make up the deck's core? What are the meta slots? What is the optimum list vs specific archetypes? Is there a card that makes a color splash worthwhile?
I'll start the discussion with some decklists that I have tried...
White Stax - Tried and True
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
8 Plains
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Ravages of War
2 Armageddon
That list is pretty basic. I have focused more on the mana denial and taxation strategies, obviously. My meta-slots are the O-Rings, the 5th 'geddon, and the 4th Stack. I have played with this list for a couple of years and am most comfortable in an unknown meta playing this list. My sideboard varies, but it typically consistents of Needles, Suppression Field (which every time I take them out - I kick myself), Sphere of Law and Resistance, recently CoP:Green, and my current MVP - Guardian of the Guildpact (look it up, I'll wait)... All-in-all, just a no-frills list. I'm currently testing 1x Maze of Ith or 1x Kor Haven (as Nihil suggested).
White Stax - 'Growing a Pair of Balls' Update
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
8 Plains
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Sphere of Resistance
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
2 Talisman of Progress or Unity
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Ravages of War
2 Armageddon
This list evolved from tinkering with some Vintage '9-Ball' MUD and Stax lists. This deck focuses more on an explosive start, followed up with a mid-game Armageddon 'finish'. The deck plays okay, but it always seems to be missing something... On the play, I really like this list since you have a higher probability of locking your opponent out of a couple turns. Sphere of Resistance is better than expected because it messes with every deck's math. This list really cuts down on the number of times control decks Brainstorm into free counters. But I haven't tested it fully and just offer it for discussion...
White Stax - Green Splash Library Stax
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Nantuko Monastery
4 Plains
2 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Sylvan Library
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Words of Wilding
3 Ravages of War
2 Armageddon
Two opening comments - Sylvan Library is the only card that I have tested as a splash, liked the results, and improved results. The mana base looks like a crack whore wiped it off her ass, but it's surprisingly consistent when combined with Library. Portal is obviously my favorite card to pitch to a turn-one Mox, since it basically fixes my mana for the rest of the game. Canopy may be unecessary and the Monastery or a Factory could easily become more colored sources. This build focuses on getting to a lock quicker and more consistently and then overwhelming the opponent much faster under a suffocating Stax. Green also opens up a much broader spectrum of sideboard options - Krosan Grip, Choke, Tarmogoyf...
I have long been a fan of this deck because it rewards you for knowing how to play your match-ups with very close to even results almost across the board. I believe, though, that as the meta evolves around us - we do not have to be content with just evolving the deck to match the format. I believe that we can be more pro-active, force ourselves to reevaluate the Stax shell, and potentially make some 'revolutionary' progress.
What do you guys think? Machinus? Silverdragon? Bane? Nihil? I'll call you fellas out first since you all obviously have a lot of experience with the deck and archetype, but I hope we'll hear everyone's opinions.
Fred Bear...
P.S. Like I said - this is a firestarter or motivational post (I'm not trying to flame anyone)... I'm also not trying to minimize anyone's contributions and I'm sorry if I didn't name you directly and you feel slighted. I have been tinkering and testing with this deck since Machinus' original Starcity articles and have read all the pages of all the historical threads on this deck. I don't have a 'team' and I'm not a 'pro', but I just feel like the deck is on the verge of achieving the next level and I think the group here should be able to take it there... So, here's to a hopefully 'revolutionary' discussion! FB...
Fred I like the lists you posted up and I feel that it's always good to discuss new variants for possible deck evolution. Anyone remembered how GeddonStax used to run WOG and no armageddons? The current version is a lot stronger than the previous version.
I would like to point out that despite the various builds out there, Armageddon is perhaps the unique card: not many decks are built to play around Armageddon (many decks recover from WOG, but not many from Armageddon). I think no matter what, Armageddon stays with this deck, and so do the Flagstones for just an insane amount of synergy.
I've always loved Library Stax, but it is usually hard to run 2 colors in Stax, due to the heavy use of colorless mana (Tombs, City, Wasteland, Factories). It would definitely weaken the deck's ability to cripple other decks, but would improve consistency and mid-game. I think Library Stax would be great with shuffling effects, but we don't really have such cards for Stax (the closest card around Stax-mana-base is Intuition, but that's blue).
I think 2 Magus is too little. I usually play 3-4 since Magus answers almost all the aggro threats in conjunctin with Ghostly Prison/Armageddon/Wasteland-lock. Magus also blocks Goyf all day. I'm not sure about splashing, but I've tried blue for Academy Ruins and Intuition and I found it was weaker than mono-white because of mana-inconsistency. With Moon effects going around in Legacy, I think sticking to mono would be a safer choice.
I think the recent inclusion is Oblivion Ring, which to me is a good inclusion since it answers a lot of threats that the deck can't target (this deck is board control without targeted removal. Oblivion Ring feels the slot perfectly because of 2W, and it is a permanent which sometimes you can sack it after armageddon has resolved or when the threat no longer poses a problem for you and most importantly, it removes a permanent, which allows Stax to chew up other pieces). I just love sacking Oblivion Ring to Smokestack after Armageddon and freeing a useless Pernicious Deed for the opponent. Another possibility with playable mana is Faith's Fetters. I might want to try this since it cripples any permanents (including lands). Most importantly, it gives the life gain that negates tomb damage. The only thing worse than Oring is that it doesn't remove the permanent, so the opponent can just sack it to Smokestack, but then again, you've accomplished removing a threat to the lock. I really like the lifegain since it is scary how much damage you take while piecing up the lock, but right now I'm in for Oring.
Anyway, I will be brainstorming as well for possibilities and thanks to Fred again for posting up lists!
Hmm. Ichorid and Breakfast, and pretty much all storm that is even half-way reliant to IGG just lost g2 to Plains, Mox Diamond, Sun-and-Moon; go. Ok, maybe not a loss, but definitely a must-answer deterrent that would most definitely give you the time to set up staxlock. I will mention that it also negates a Recurring Wasteland, 2-fold even, when fetchlands are involved...Here's a possible sideboard card, unfortunately it has a mana cost of 2:
Sun-and-Moon Wheel
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant player
Whenever a card would be put into the graveyard of enchanted player from anywhere, the card is revealed and put onto the bottom of that player's library.
Wow, this made me throw up a little bit in the back of my throat, not gonna lie. The complete dissynergy of 5 'Geddon effects AND stax mixed with an enchantment that demands mana each turn is rediculous, not to mention that it pumps out creatures while you play Tabernacle effects, bringing me full-circle with the the lack of mana in the first place due to Geddon effects... Plus, you don't even run a way to FIND the cards you need (read: WoW or Library). Monestary and portal over Factories 3 and 4? Wtf for? Portal for an instant-speed bear, or a 2color 4/4 wall (first strike is pretty irrelevant seeing as how it's a STAX list)? No. Plus, I'm pretty sure that at least once on every page since the beginning of this thread it's been stressed that the point of angelstax is that redundancy=consistancy. That is NOT here, not to the slightest degree. You didn't even include Idyllic Tutor, which would add consistancy, unless I'm greatly mistaken. At least that grabs 1 of 11 legal targets out of the deck...White Stax - Green Splash Library Stax
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Nantuko Monastery
4 Plains
2 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Sylvan Library
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Words of Wilding
3 Ravages of War
2 Armageddon
It would be wiser to shove 4 Savannahs in place of 4 plains so you wouldn't have to go so heavy on green, but otherwise maintain the same manabase as MWStax, and use Words of Worship instead; a fetch or 2 for shuffle effects I suppose... This highly reduces the need for the ruination of the manabase. It also replaces the need for Exalted Angels (I've been against using these and Moat for a LOOOOOOONG time). Gives you the "draw" (since you can gain the life right back with Words of Worship, paying 4 life isn't a big deal to get the cards you need), while maintaining some small fashion of redundancy. This also allows you to keep the count of Tabernacle effects at a more appropriate number. I suppose here I could see a little usefulness of a Horizon Canopy...
I really don't know how to go about building this, though. I do know you just solved the pain from fetches and Tombs...to what end I'm uncertain. A singleton Test of Endurance? lol. Seriously, though. It's not a bad idea, I think the implementation was just WAY off.
--DC
Hey man, I don't mind criticism, really, but at least take the time to make an informed post and most importantly ask questions if you don't understand something...
#1 - Words of Wilding does not 'require' mana each turn. It's an activated ability. It gives you a bear forevery turn after it's in play, which is pretty efficient on it's own. This is really what 'replaces' the additional Factories and Magus to a degree (obviously without the Tabernacle effect). Had you actually tested the deck (or at least asked more questions or even read some of the posts emidln has made in the past), you would see that Words + Sylvan Library = nice little combo churning out an army for
to end games very quickly. It also allows you to produce tokens (even under a Tabernacle effect) that sacrifice to Smokestack, effectively allowing you to ramp without consequence to numbers >2 (remember Tabernacle effect = Upkeep, Words = 'usually' Draw step). So the dissynergy that you 'hint' at isn't really there. You can successfully 'geddon, next turn draw, and play as normal (sometimes with a Smokestack at 2) - all with both Library and Words in play.
#2 - I have found that for the most part, tutors suck in Stax. I don't run them because it is very seldom that I 'need' a particular card (if you evaluate your testing data fairly, you will find that a 'silver bullet' may be desired at a certain point, but it is not 'necessary' to win - it just speeds up the win which is a very different evaluation). Look at what non-land changes I made in the list presented compared to the 'traditional' list I posted - -1x Magus, -1x Trinisphere, -1x Smokestack, -1x Oblivion Ring, -1x Land is traded for 3x Sylvan Library, and 2x Words of Wilding. If you are not drawing the Library or Words, you are drawing the traditional Stax elements! And look at what Library does... it helps you dig for solutions (granted it's not Top + Fetchland efficient), but choosing 1 of 3 is better than any random card off the top and you can pay 4 life to dig even deeper. This DOES help with consistency and it allows for playing things as slightly less than 4-ofs since you are 'seeing' more cards. You don't 'need' Library or Words to win, they are simply added to tool box and can help you when they are found (Words is a win condition, but can act as a lock piece with Smokestack or just by providing infinite blockers). *Key point - It does not matter how much life you lose if you win the game.*
#3 - The mana base is admittedly ugly (read my post). But in some places, I've enhanced the 'redundancy' with utility. I play just as many man-lands as the first list presented. I've just swapped one Factory for a Monastery. A 4/4 finishes the game faster than a 2/2 - plain and simple. The only difference is in the activation cost, which is why there is only one Monastery - it has requirements that need to be in place before I want it at the party. And Portal replaces the 3rd Wasteland. Once you have Portal in the graveyard (either from a Smokestack or Mox or Armageddon), your mana is fixed (until they remove it which would be a waste of time for most decks)! Being able to tap Monastery or Wasteland or Windswept or especially a Tomb for white or green is pretty powerful. Horizon Canopy replaces a white source with a 'dual' and a draw ability (meaning it can fix mana, cycle, recur, or trade for a bear - that's a lot of utility from 1 card - oh, and it produces white or green for free with Portal in the grave). I'm willing to listen to suggestions and discussion, which is why I posted - but mindless critique without testing doesn't really contribute anything in my opinion (I'm not trying to 'run' the thread - just directly asking for a little respect).
#4 - Words of Worship is a fun trick against burn. Otherwise, it's much worse than Words of Wilding (or even Words of War if you wanted to bend in that direction). It seems like you might be a little confused on some of the interactions, too. The Words abilities replace the draw (wherever it is from) - so if you activate Words twice, activate Library, you get 2 bears, 4 life whatever, and no cards and lose 0 life (knowledge rocks).
I would suggest testing (or at least learning the interactions). The list I presented is no less consistent than a traditional White Stax build. I didn't suggest the list as the be-all-end-all, it was intended as an idea list. I find it's more helpful to ask questions, than to just provide a condescending critique, but I guess you did admittedly say you "really don't know how to go about building this". Thanks for the input.
Fred Bear...
You're my hero. Problem solved.@ Skeggi - Not trying to be a dick, here, but you could get the last Prison by putting the 60th card in the deck
Note to self: learn to count.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Hi, I am going to make a suggestion on a card that is probably not worth running. But I am curious if anyone ever wasted a thought on that card. If u play a build containing 3-4 Smokestacks wouldn´t it be worth a try running Eater of Days as a killoption? I mean ramping a Smokestack up to 2 then play an Eater of Days leaving you with a realy big ass monster und your oponent with basically nothing sounds nice at least......
.....or u wait until u have 8 mana (anything turn 5-6) and play geddon+eater in one turn....
.....or blow up mana via geddon and recover in and ramp ur mana to 4 until the next turn via Crucible and Trinisphere and play him safe......
....as I said just thoughts that came to my mind.
It is a mid- to lategame beater that finishes really quickly if played under a soft lock (otherwise unplayable). If you have established a hard lock the finisher obviously doesn´t matter, but I find myself often enough confronted with a softlock that needs to be taken advantage of, because the oponent will recover in a couple of turns -> single geddon for example
ChillerKiller,
Eater isn't so out there. When I tried Eater of Days before, though, I found it to be too much of a 'win-more'-type of card to warrant inclusion. Eater is very, very good in the 'soft-' or 'mini-'lock situations you describe (you really just need to negate whatever removal you expect) and he does provide a 'win-right-now' card when you are in that position (good for triggering the concede - I never actually got to attack with him in my testing, you usually sit through 3 opponent untaps while they 'search' for an answer and then they concede).
Eater is worse than nearly all other options in almost every other situation. Without any lock in place, Eater becomes near unplayable since he turns every Swords and Naturalize into Time Stretch that can be played for 7-9 mana less during your own EOT step (there are, of course, exceptions but in general, this is the case).
So, ultimately, if you have a lock in place that will allow you to miss two turns and begin beating with Eater, you've probably already won (*NEWS FLASH*) which in my opinion drops him into the 'win-more' card category. I'm not a complete believer in the 'win-condition' doesn't matter camp, but I also don't want to play cards that are quite this situational (i.e. if you've shut off their removal, there are any number of creatures that don't cost you two turns that will probably still win the game for you - Exalted Angel comes to mind).
The best spot I found for him is against mono-black (white splash is not anywhere close to that good since white signals Swords and more devastatingly Vindicate). Eater avoids most of their common removal and can potentially be played early enough to avoid their discard (especially since they will focus on other troublesome cards with their discard - Trinisphere, Chalice, etc.). Combining these benefits with their already slow clock and two turns won't do anything to you that a flying, trampling 9/8 can't take care of.
Fred Bear...
As a long-time pilot of Sun Tower (since before it went UGr, and even before AEther Flash was utilized), not to mention AngelStax (which is entirely inferior to either version of Sun Tower), I think I'm more than informed...
Clearly you don't HAVE to pay for WoW, but it does NOT replace Factories. Factory is a 4-of because of it's versatility in the early game to block Mongeese, early beats, and etc. And the "dissynergy" I "hint" (read: scream)at is in fact very much in play. You aren't keeping in mind that you run only 3 Libraries, and only 2x Words, in addition to 1x Cantrip=randomness.#1 - Words of Wilding does not 'require' mana each turn. It's an activated ability. It gives you a bear for
Tabernacle effect = Upkeep = you not having mana to pump out bears during draw step...
Intuition much? It's not that tutors suck in stax, it's that redundancy often makes their usefulness minimal. However, you lack said redundancy. I know you think that your card choices make up for your lack thereof, but you unfortunately would be mistaken.#2 - I have found that for the most part, tutors suck in Stax. I don't run
them because it is very seldom that I 'need' a particular card (if you evaluate your testing data fairly, you will find that a 'silver bullet' may be desired at a certain point, but it is not 'necessary' to win - it just speeds up the win which is a very different evaluation).
So you dropped a lock piece (Smokestack, when you SHOULD have dropped a Crucible as WoW fills it's slot as number 4 and 5), a double-Time Walk/Hymn to Tourach/Combo-hose (reference to 3sphere), went down to 2x targetted removal spells when most people complaining of not being able to fit in a 4th (I understand that you can ramp stax, but you dropped one, which gives you 1 per 20 cards, Library and recurring shuffle effects notwithstanding). The only reasonable sacrifice to put the combo in your list is Magus, but you maintain 5 'Geddon effects, which made the drop of the Magus all but moot, if not random.Look at what non-land changes I made in the list presented compared to the 'traditional' list I posted - -1x Magus, -1x Trinisphere, -1x Smokestack, -1x Oblivion Ring, -1x Land is traded for 3x Sylvan Library, and 2x Words of Wilding. If you are not drawing the Library or Words, you are drawing the traditional Stax elements! And look at what Library does... it helps you dig for solutions (granted it's not Top + Fetchland efficient), but choosing 1 of 3 is better than any random card off the top and you can pay 4 life to dig even deeper. This DOES help with consistency and it allows for playing things as slightly less than 4-ofs since you are 'seeing' more cards. You don't 'need' Library or Words to win, they are simply added to tool box and can help you when they are found (Words is a win condition, but can act as a lock piece with Smokestack or just by providing infinite blockers). *Key point - It does not matter how much life you lose if you win the game.*
Every good stax player knows that redundancy > utility. The only one-ofs played in Sun Tower are LftL, EE, and Academy Ruins (and then SB T. Crypts, but those are often run in 3's, as turn 1 Intuition into a Crypt *can* be gg for Ichorid, and I hear recurring Crypts are bad news against Loam and all other gy dependent decks such as goyfs and etc.), which are tutored for by Intuition (note the inevitability of the card choices). I will ignore your manabase, as you are aware of it's utter disrepair, but I will mention that there is a WORLD of difference between Monestary and Factory. I think you are forgetting that it requires THRESHOLD to be a creature. If you hit WoW as often as you say you are, you are NOT getting Threshold. If you are, you are doing so at the expense of either your lock or your manabase, or you happen to be losing...And it's a completely dead (read: Mox-Fodder) early game/opening hand. I can't imagine a time when you draw it and say, "I'm glad this is a Monestary instead of a Factory." The fact that it takes out a Mongoose is of incredibly little significance, as it'll be capable of swinging for way before you ever get Threshold. 2x Factories means same amount of damage to player with the need of twice as many blockers, and no colored mana or anything in your yard. I've rambled on, but the main point is that stax builds are about inevitability, not cheap trix and lands that swing for 4...how's that for redundancy?#3 - The mana base is admittedly ugly (read my post). But in some places, I've enhanced the 'redundancy' with utility. I play just as many man-lands as the first list presented. I've just swapped one Factory for a Monastery. A 4/4 finishes the game faster than a 2/2 - plain and simple. The only difference is in the activation cost, which is why there is only one Monastery - it has requirements that need to be in place before I want it at the party. And Portal replaces the 3rd Wasteland. Once you have Portal in the graveyard (either from a Smokestack or Mox or Armageddon), your mana is fixed (until they remove it which would be a waste of time for most decks)! Being able to tap Monastery or Wasteland or Windswept or especially a Tomb for white or green is pretty powerful. Horizon Canopy replaces a white source with a 'dual' and a draw ability (meaning it can fix mana, cycle, recur, or trade for a bear - that's a lot of utility from 1 card - oh, and it produces white or green for free with Portal in the grave). I'm willing to listen to suggestions and discussion, which is why I posted - but mindless critique without testing doesn't really contribute anything in my opinion (I'm not trying to 'run' the thread - just directly asking for a little respect).
No, it's good against burn (not that burn's any problem in the first place..). Good is quite different than trick. A recurring wasteland is good enough for you to squeeze a scoop out of someone, but a Stax lock gaining 10+ life a turn isn't? Against decks that run 8-12 creatures (that have to pay for Prison, just to get chumped by a Facto--wait, you dropped half of them...), and easily gaining upwards of 10 life a turn is in fact a concession, not to mention life-gain is one of the two reasons Exalted Angel is considered by players of Angelstax. Btw, dropping a couple Factories would have been a smaller mistake if you had turned Prisons into Bridges (after all, you control how many cards you draw...)#4 - Words of Worship is a fun trick against burn. Otherwise, it's much worse than Words of Wilding (or even Words of War if you wanted to bend in that direction).
I suppose that's what you get for thinking...It seems like you might be a little confused on some of the interactions, too. The Words abilities replace the draw (wherever it is from) - so if you activate Words twice, activate Library, you get 2 bears, 4 life whatever, and no cards and lose 0 life (knowledge rocks).
Here you go, for the record: The fact of the matter is that if you want to take this in a words direction, I suggest taking a Sun Tower skeleton and work your way from there. WGu would be the obvious colors. This is the official way you should take this.I would suggest testing (or at least learning the interactions). The list I presented is no less consistent than a traditional White Stax build. I didn't suggest the list as the be-all-end-all, it was intended as an idea list. I find it's more helpful to ask questions, than to just provide a condescending critique, but I guess you did admittedly say you "really don't know how to go about building this". Thanks for the input.
Fred Bear...
I can understand how you took my criticism, and you did so accurately. I apologize for the rudeness, but not for the criticism. Maybe (since you referenced him) Emidln will swing by and have a say in the matter, but I daresay he's a bit preoccupied with storm combo atm. For that matter, I only post on here for the development of the deck (an idea I have heavily propogated in prior lists, and has been a long time coming). The fact is I switched to sun tower, got rid of my Ravages and never looked back from Sun Tower and FT. I come here for nostalgia...
How about this list:
Lands--25
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
3x Tropical Island
2x Savannah
1x Forest/Trop
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
2x Windswept Heath
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Academy Ruins
Possibly drop the Forest for Tropical if you don't see a lot of Moon Effects. There is absolutely NO reason to run Flagstones. Shuffle effects are what's key to playing Libraries as it gets you a new spread every turn for the cost of your land-drop and a life (as I remember, life doesn't matter, right?), and you can do it every turn (you don't have to grab a land. Convenient, no? Guess I may know a few interactions, eh?)
Spells--35
4x Smokestack
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Trinisphere
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
4x Sylvan Library
3x Words of Worship//Words of Wilding
3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Intuition
1x Life from the Loam
1x Engineered Explosives
Everything here should be extremely self-explanatory. Feel free if you feel like it to run a Test of Endurance, lol. Clearly this is a jest, and not to be taken seriously. It seems like you have to run disclaimers on this thread anymore...
A sideboard could consist of several things ranging but not limited to:
Krosan Grip
Pithing Needle
Wrath of God
Oblivion Ring
Tormod's Crypt
Engineered Explosives
and plenty other options...And you don't HAVE to run them in the sets, but rather 3's as Intuition can act as slots 4-5-6 for everything. Utility that equals redundancy = hawt tecH.
There ya go. This is almost card-for-card Sun Tower in white instead of red, maintaining the 2 main colors of U and G. I'm certain you will find it more entertaining and powerful than the mess we've been discussing.
Pce,
--DC
Heh, looks like you haven't been playing stax long enough. ;) The key here is knowing that Tabernacle gives the creatures themselves an extra triggered ability and that the creature's controller gets to stack it as they wish. This brings your upkeep/draw order with a Smokestack, Tabernacle, Words of Wilding, and Sylvan Library in play on your side to something like this:
At the beginning of your upkeep, the following is placed on the stack:
//TOP OF STACK
Smokestack sac permanents trigger
Individual Tabernacle Triggers
Smokestack add a counter trigger
//BOTTOM OF STACK
Before you move to the draw step, you need to activate Words of Wilding at least once so that your draw per turn is replaced with making a bear. You can choose to pay an additional 2 here or you can wait until the Sylvan Library trigger is on the stack on your draw to pay 2 if you wish to get 2 additional bears.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I was going to argue this, but I quickly realized that if you had any wits about you that remotely competed with a child's, you'd convert your strategy from board position to win condition, letting Magus kill itself in the upkeep after you play the Words, leaving you any amount of bears to be made from then on.
The point I argued about bears and their production henceforth was the correlation between magus, said bears, and amount of mana you could generate, which would clearly dictate the number of tokens you were "allowing" yourself to maintain; clearly though, this is an invalid point as any slightly informed player would simply do as I previously stated in this post....
as to knowledge and my suggested lacking in the area:
I understand how the stack and the upkeep "triggers" should stack and are manipulated to the player's best interested, I don't know how this is even in question. I am not in any way, shape or form an unknowledgeable stax pilot; I have posted (and believe to be the most recent advocate of) Intuition and Academy Ruins prior to it's addition to any stax list on here since my arrival to these boards; not that I'm trying to take credit where credit's not due, I just believe it to be a truth.
Curious as to what peeps think of the list. It's not like it's new or anything, simply a swapped-out color. Didn't take Finkel to piece it together, but it's clearly more stable and synergistic than the first list Fred Bear posted. And yes, I would say that this actually belongs in the Sun Tower thread, but you guys brought up the Words/Library approach. I've mostly just pushed a pro: blue agenda for the Intuition/Ruins and the comparable counterparts to G. Prison and Magus. I may have mentioned ST and it's compact combo win-con, but never aggressively pursued it.
Good grief, I'm a wordy sob...
Pce,
--DC
This really isn't necessary. The difference between taking three turns and two turns when an opponent has no permanents on the board and won't keep any for more than a turn is neglible. (On a tangent, that's why it's possible to win with just a Barbarian Ring, a Mishra's Factory, a Tarpan, or a Shivan Dragon all the same in Stax.) In fact, there's little difference between taking two turns and thirty turns, especially if there is some sort of sphere effect out. The only plausible scenarios involve either a board control deck (Loam or Sun Tower) or a storm deck. A board control deck with Mox Diamond, two lands, and clasm or ee in hand (theoretically, ST can do it with mox diamond, two lands, and welder if EE is in the yard (responding to the stax trigger on their next turn by welding EE and blowing it up)) being able to destroy your tokens and maybe make you sac some stuff you don't want to. Given the game state described, even this doesn't sound all that bad unless you manage to lose your board so that you can't make more bears. A combo deck could play out ETW assuming no sphere effect. It's unlikely they generate enough storm to overwhelm your bear tokens, but an active Tabernacle effect would prevent this.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
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