[Deck] Armageddon Stax

[Fred Bear]

DC,

Man, you crack me up...

(1) As emidln pointed out, the dissynergy between Magus + Words of Wilding only exists if you let it. Armageddon is only ever a problem if you make bad plays. I assume that for a decent player with experience with the deck, neither scenario would be a factor.

(2) As far as Factory goes... I have never played Factory as a 4-of and I probably won't ever play Factory as a 4-of. I understand what you believe it does, but I can only attribute it to pure games played in the White Stax shell. Call it personal preference or whatever you like, but in my testing, I've never wanted a second one until I'm winning already and at that point - just like emidln and others have said, it really doesn't matter if you have 1 or 2 or 6.

(3) I am against Intuition in White Stax. I've never tested it in the current form of Sun Tower, but this isn't really the place for that. I have tried it in White Stax and in various White/Blue Hybrids and in several versions of Blue Stax and I have been entirely underwhelmed every single time. The reason: It has zero-to-negative effect on bad match-ups like Landstill and makes the deck more vulnerable in common match-ups that are already ok like Threshold. You can always come up with scenarios where it is good-to-awesome, but I have not found those situations to be more common then the ones where it is sub-par to any other Stax piece.

So you dropped a lock piece (Smokestack, when you SHOULD have dropped a Crucible as WoW fills it's slot as number 4 and 5), a double-Time Walk/Hymn to Tourach/Combo-hose (reference to 3sphere), went down to 2x targetted removal spells when most people complaining of not being able to fit in a 4th (I understand that you can ramp stax, but you dropped one, which gives you 1 per 20 cards, Library and recurring shuffle effects notwithstanding). The only reasonable sacrifice to put the combo in your list is Magus, but you maintain 5 'Geddon effects, which made the drop of the Magus all but moot, if not random.

(4) I'm gonna have to bust your chops a little here, man... If you've played 'Geddon Stax at all, you'll know that anything less that 4 Crucibles is likely too few. Being able to consistently recur lands is obviously what breaks the symmetry of Armageddon. You are also nearly always faster to recover from an Armageddon than your opponent. This is what I think pushed everyone in the thread to the list in the first place, Armageddon is a format wrecking ball. I dropped the Trinispheres by one because, honestly, it's, again, not the piece that wins the game. I'm not arguing that it's right - it might not be, but I could see you being a little more on edge if I suggested dropping the Chalices to 3. Also, the number of cards you see in an average game with Library and even two fetches is >> than straight White Stax which really does translate into finding more cards sooner.

(5) The only place where I have ever missed the additional targetted removal is against Pernicious Deed or similar cards (which is why Needle is a sideboard mainstay) which sucks, but it's no worse than usual really and post-board I find Needles more often. I actually began using the Rings more to slow 'Goyf beats, though, and I don't miss one as much with this list just because I tend to see more actual lock pieces and win by that route a lot faster and more consistently.

(6) You are right - redundancy > utility. Unless you can do both. You have to remember that sometimes (especially with Lands), you have the ability to do both. I need a White and Green mana source - what's better - Brushland, Temple Garden, Savannah, or Horizon Canopy? If the life loss is a minimal concern, Horizon Canopy offers the most utility even if Savannah is the right answer most of the time (it's why Barbarian Ring is better than a Mountain in Sun Tower - Red Source with drawback + Win Condition > Red Source). So with 3 slots for W/G Lands - 2 Savannahs and 1 Horizon Canopy can be correct (again, I'm not arguing that it is, it just hasn't bothered me in testing). Monastery isn't a beater until the mid-to-late game when you have threshold, you're right, in that one way it's worse than Factory. And you will get burned once in a while by it, but it is still a redundant slot - it's a colorless manland. It offers a bigger body for a slightly bigger drawback which is utility. (Also, just for the record - another interaction you missed - you can shuffle every turn without life loss with Smokestack >1, Crucible, Flagstones - you don't need to find a land with it either)

(7) Lifegain is largely a waste of time. There I said it. I stand behind it. Exalted Angel is a phenomenal creature and I don't mean to minimize her abilities, but, honestly, she's playable for what she does without the Lifelink (a 4/5 flyer on turn 3 is playable - I don't care who you are). If you want to play with Words of Wisdom, you're wasting time. You'll get the concession, but you better win all your game ones - because people will sit and let you gain a million life in game two (and lose the match 0-1). That's why I said - 'It's a neat trick' - Words of Wilding provides a way to win the game left unchecked.

(8) I suggested taking the deck possibly in a Library direction while maintaining the Armageddon shell (I posted the list to spark discussion - not to thump my chest). The Words enchantments are better utility than Uba Mask (it was sad to see Uba Lock leave today), but Hoofprints of the Stag might be just as playable, which is why I've been toying with it. Sun Tower is a different deck. It plays entirely differently (I have played it before). emidln (probably the most accomplished Sun Tower player on these boards I think), I'm almost sure, would agree that while the Stax goals of the two decks are similar - the way they are played is most definitely not. White or Armageddon Stax is a resource starvation prison deck. Ensnaring Bridge for Ghostly Prison is not a reasonable swap because Prison allows me to attack while taxing my opponent for the opportunity - it's not symmetric, especially in multiples. Armageddon amplifies these types of non-symmetries while punishing most decks in the format for playing so land-light (and fetch-heavy) - this is what makes this deck playable.

(9) Your list is Sun Tower. You dropped Barbarian Rings, de-stabilized the mana base to add white, and suggested possibly using Words of Wisdom and some white sideboard cards (instead of sticking with red like emidln did when he posted the list in the Sun Tower thread). I'm curious what benefit you would really see for splashing white into Sun Tower - red just seems much, much better in that deck?

I really wasn't looking to get into a forum argument about this deck, especially with someone who clearly hasn't tried it. The deck's not perfect, I'm not the greatest deck designer in the world, and I have no tournament results to back it up. I just have a bunch of games that I've played it against testing partners on MWS and around the kitchen table. It works pretty well. I understand that you have experience with Sun Tower, but Armageddon Stax is very, very different - and I think that's ok. There doesn't necessarily need to be one Stax deck to rule them all.

Fred Bear...

[Gambit]

Possible Card in:

Crackdown 2W
Original Printing
Card Type: Enchantment
Card Text: Nonwhite creatures with power 3 or greater don't untap during their controllers' untap steps.

Are there enough creatures besides goyf that have 3 or more power to make this useful?

Also, how do you beat 4color landstill? Deeds + Crucibles + no-creatures that are taxed seems to hurt a lot game 1.

Post-board I bring in suppression fields and needles which seem to help some, but this matchup doesn't seem very good.

[Zach Tartell]

Possible Card in:

Crackdown 2W
Original Printing
Card Type: Enchantment
Card Text: Nonwhite creatures with power 3 or greater don't untap during their controllers' untap steps.

Are there enough creatures besides goyf that have 3 or more power to make this useful?

Also, how do you beat 4color landstill? Deeds + Crucibles + no-creatures that are taxed seems to hurt a lot game 1.

Post-board I bring in suppression fields and needles which seem to help some, but this matchup doesn't seem very good.

Seems to me Meekstone would be just as good, no? Also, why not just o-ring said creature (Or wrath, or tax his ass, or propaganda him to oblivion)(with oblivion ring? oh God, I'm like a poet).

As for landstill I reckon that needles would help a bunch, as well as quick smokestack related savagery.

Edit: Before, of course, they land a crucible

[Gambit]

About Meekstone, this deck doesn't like 1-drops (yes, I know I said needle out of the board). And crackdown doesn't affect your creatures at all, well your 1 creature being Angel...hmmm. Anyway, getting to 3 mana isn't hard, and I'm trying to brainstorm some new tech. O-ring is fine for the first critter, but Stax isn't about 1 for 1's; each card needs to be a 2 for 1 or better. In some situations this is.

[Nihil Credo]

As for landstill I reckon that needles would help a bunch, as well as quick smokestack related savagery.

Suppression Field (in addition to Defense Grid) is probably your best card against Landstill. Not as consistent as Needle, but it fits better in your overall strategy.

The Meekstone variant seems decent, but there's no way it gets into my list as long as Exalted Angel keeps being that awesome.

[Gambit]

The Meekstone variant seems decent, but there's no way it gets into my list as long as Exalted Angel keeps being that awesome.

Crackdown is Non-white creatures.

Yea, I probably should get some defense grids for my SB. Can people post some SB's for comparison?

Here's mine at the moment:
3-Needle
4-Crypt
2-Oblivion Ring
3-Powder Keg
3-Suppression field

[Nihil Credo]

Crackdown is Non-white creatures.

Oops. Then it's got a chance. The main strike against it is that it does not synergize with any of your lock pieces; however, unlike Oblivion Ring (which shares the same flaw), it does not get nullified by your opponent simply dropping a second copy of the same card.

On a second thought, it has good synergy with Tangle Wire. That card doesn't belong in the current Angel/Armageddon builds, but maybe a new approach could emerge that makes use of both Wire and Crackdown. I'll have to fiddle a bit more with it.

Yea, I probably should get some defense grids for my SB. Can people post some SB's for comparison?

Here's mine at the moment:
3-Needle
4-Crypt
2-Oblivion Ring
3-Powder Keg
3-Suppression field

Mine is:

4 Oblivion Ring -> not going anywhere
3-4 Defense Grid -> ditto
3-4 Suppression Field -> ditto
Up to 3 extra taxing effects (Tabernacle, Windborn Muse)
Up to 1 'disenchant' effect (sometimes I want Ring #5)

The rest is up for debate. Graveyard hate (both Grunt and Crypt) has been fairly useless for me - it seems to be better to stop Ichorid and Loam in different ways (Prisons, Trinisphere, and Angel for the former; Field, Ring, and Chalice@2 for the latter). I've got Powder Kegs in the list right now, but I'm not testing the deck much of late.

[Skeggi]

My current SB, testing version is :

2 Sphere of Law
3 Suppression Field
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Defense Grid
2 Rule of Law
3 Aura of Silence
2 Sphere of Resistance

I'm considering changing it to something like this:

3 Sun-and-Moon Wheel (Shadowmoor card)
3 Defense Grid
3 Suppression Field
3 Rule of Law
3 Aura of Silence

(I run 3 Oblivion Rings MB, Tabernacle out and moving to MB because it's a waste to leave it in SB lol)

[Bane of the Living]

I think Sun and Moon Wheel will be too slow to be effective hate. Go with Tormod's Crypt. Double white is ugly, I don't even play double white costs in my build.

[Silverdragon]

My most common used sideboard is
4 Defense Grid
4 Suppression Field
3 Duskrider Peregrine
2 Wasteland
2 [whatever I feel like]

The 2 Wastelands are there to go up to 4 Wastelands after board against decks where they are good (read anything where some MD cards can be boarded out ) but most often I use them to up my land count to 26/27 against matchups where I'm likely to Geddon multiple times.
The 2 open slots are currently 1 Tabernacle and 1 Pithing Needle although Powder Keg, Seal of Cleansing or Oblivion Ring are good choices too. Maindeck I play 3 Magus and 2-3 Oblivion Ring most of the time so if I didn't have a Tabernacle I could also see me playing the 4th Magus in the board.

P.S.: Concerning Graveyard hate: Don't! It usually is a waste of space. Against Threshold by boarding in GY hate you have to board out other useful cards like Prison or Magus thus weakening your primary plan of taxing their already weak mana. Against Ichorid unless they have a really good draw a single Prison plus Trinisphere should shut them down even after boarding. Against Loam it might be worth it however your primary plan against them is to set up a devastating Armageddon and again you are weakening your chance of surviving until then if you board out creature control for GY hate.
Specifically about that Wheel of Sun and Moon I think Bane is right. WW is ugly especially when you need it really fast to matter. I won't play it.

[Tacosnape]

What's the general consensus of boarding plans for Duskrider Peregrine? When do you board him in, for what, and why?

[Silverdragon]

The obvious plan is to board it in against anything black (black/white is very common around here) and board out Trinispheres. Peregrine is also not bad against any deck packing Pernicious Deed because it has a cc of 6. Against most decks with Deed you can board out Ghostly Prisons and a combination of Chalices and Trinispheres so it is not hard to find a space for the Peregrines after boarding.
As for an explanation, against Sui-style decks Peregrine simply trumps most of their creatures and can hold the fort against a Tombstalker easily. The only common removal that can hit it is Swords but you can at least use Chalice to protect him for some time.
Against 4c Landstill, Peregrine helps you put up a bit more pressure (3 damage a turn is nothing to sneeze at especially because it flies over their manlands).
Against any other deck with Deed (Rock-style decks) you can again put up some pressure and defend against Doran.
Generally you often use Peregrine against decks that have a lategame strategy that trumps yours or simply as an additional defense line.

On another note, I couldn't get much testing with Karmic Justice yet but I think they are stronger against most current builds of Black/X Sui and most Deed decks so expect me to change the Peregrines for Karmic Justice sometime in the future.

edit: What do you guys think about Uba Mask in the sideboard against Landstill and maybe Survival? It is also useful against combodecks but most likely win-more against them.

[Nihil Credo]

I used to like Peregrine, but its usefulness has sharply declined since the Tarmogoyf splash became so common in Vindicate decks.

[kkoie]

This is the sideboard that I have been trying out to decent affect:

4 Oblivion Ring
3 Suppresion Field
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Aura of Silence
2 Guardian of the Guildpact

[Gambit]

Bare with me for a minute; this may be terrible and I haven't done any testing yet. But a stax shell with a combo win may be good.
This combines the broken openings of stax with the painters grindstone combo. I pulled the chalices as they are quite dis-synergistic with the e-tutors and grindstones. This also, allows e-tutors which can in fact find you important lock pieces. The obvious problem being painter and grindstone being bad on there own. Thoughts?

4 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon
3 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
8 Plains

[Willoe]

Not being an Angel Stax guy, but being a lover of that Grindstone + Painter's Servant combo, I feel almost forced to reply :D

Anyway, here goes:

The card that kills me almost every game is Chalice of the Void which is in my opinion the most versatile card in the deck. It can lock almost any deck if counters are set correct. If I were you, I wouldn't cut it. Additionally, I think that only the Angel should be run as a kill condition. Since the deck basically runs in top deck mode, you can't afford to run six cards that are virtually dead without their other part. Although the combo wins instantly, it's win more in my opinion. I think that your average matchup percentages would be slightly worse with that combo in your deck.

So in short, don't run the combo. If you do, then don't cut the chalices. I can however understand your argument for E-Tutor.

Am I just a random guy that has nothing clever to say about a deck I'm not playing, or am I actually right? :P

Anyway, nice try on finding a build for that goddamn combo :)

[Skeggi]

I think you should build a deck around that combo, or try and fit it somewhere else. I don't think it's synergic enough with GeddonStax. I might try it, just to see whether I'm not wrong on this, because if I am, it'll be very powerful.

[Skeggi]

It's been a long time since the Stax thread had an update, so here goes, this is my new MB list:

Lands:
7 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trolkair
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
---+
24

Arties
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
---+
19

Stuff:
4 Armageddon
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Exalted Angel
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Ghostly Prison
---+
17

Total 60, unless I miscounted again

There are a couple of things going on: I'm not sure if I want to run the rings MB, actually, I'm pretty sure I don't. Instead of the 3 rings I'd rather have 2 Ravages of War (which I don't have) and perhaps a 4th stack or a third Angel.

I'm also considering dropping a Mishra's Factory (I feel the fourth one is win more) for either a Wasteland or perhaps I'll bring back in the old Kor Haven (not for 'Goyf per se, it also slows down Dragon Stompy).

Fred Bear had made a nice start about perhaps splashing in another colour. This is something I might use my Ring spots for: perhaps take a plains out, put in a Scrubland, and replacing the rings with Extirpate (someone in my neighbourhood is crazy about Extirpate). Unfortunately Extirpate is a 1 mana card and doesn't do well with Chalice @ 1...so what else could fill the spot? Any ideas?

On another note, now Shadowmoor is fully out, has anyone tested Wheel of Sun and Moon? Or any other cards that might come in handy?

[Pringlesman]

I was hoping to get some help on my list, I took it to a small tourney a couple weeks ago and went un-defeted throught swiss where I loss in the semi finals because of a stupid play mistake (should have played my challice at 3 appose to 1 to stop his next turn deed). As a result of this deck, I found out I am a prison player at heart, something I knew deep down from playing Zur's Weirding. (intution for 3x Firemane Angel, FTW!)

Anywho, this is my list.

Lands 24
6 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Flagstone of Trokair
3 Mishra's Factory
1 God's Eye Gate to the Riekie

Artifact 19
4 Mox Diamond
4 Trinisphere
4 Challice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestax

White 17
4 Armageddon
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Exalted Angel

Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle (for deed)
4 Circle of Protection: Red
4 Seal of Cleansing
1 Ghostly Prison
2 ?

I originally ran my 4th O-ring, 4th Stax in my side (and played 1 enlightened main), but enlightened was less than steller, and sinceI always found myself boarding in my 4th O-ring, I just main decked it.

[Bane of the Living]

On another note, now Shadowmoor is fully out, has anyone tested Wheel of Sun and Moon? Or any other cards that might come in handy?

Runed Halo seems like a great answer to single card strategy like goyf and dreadnought.