Extremely well thought out post Fred Bear, and I have to agree with you. +2
I think we should, like you said, work on defining what the shell of stax is, and what cards have been tested and shown to work better in one meta over another. We could start by havine one person post a list of the cards, and just keep updating it with tested cards. I'd be up for posting a list of all the cards I've tried and what they've worked well with/against tomorrow, and people could just pm me and I'd update the list as more cards and reasoning were added. Sound like a plan? Just might make it easier than having multiple lists.
I'll give it a shot:Originally Posted by The Wes
Nonland Musts:
3-4 Tabernacle Effect: either 3 Magus (+ 1 Land), or 2 Magus + 1 or 2 Land...or 3 or 4 Magus if you don't have the land ;)
3-4 Trinisphere
4 Mox Diamond
4-6 Geddon Effects
4-6 Prison Effects (extra effects via Windborn Muse)
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3-4 Smokestack
Land Musts:
3-4 Flagstones of Trokair
6-8 Plains
2-4 Mishra's Factory
2-4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3-4 City of Traitors
Optional non-land:
2-4 Exalted Angel
2-4 Oblivion Ring
1-2 Moat
1-2 Cataclysm (only if you're running 4 Geddon)
2-3 Engineered Explosives
1-2 Humility
Optional Land:
1-2 Horizon Canopy
1 Kor Haven
1 Maze of Ith
1 God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1 Ghost Quarter
1-2 Darksteel Citadel
1-2 Blinkmoth Nexus depending on your Mishra's Factory count.
Sideboard suggestions:
Suppression Field
Tormod's Crypt
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Defense Grid
Rule of Law
Aura of Silence
Seal of Cleansing
Karmic Justice
Pithing Needle
Powder Keg
Engineered Explosives
Aven Mindcensor
Sphere of Resistance
Silent Arbiter
Sphere of Law
Ethersworn Canonist
Cards you probably want in your sideboard if you don't run them MB:
Oblivion Ring
Exalted Angel
Windborn Muse
These look tempting, but better not include these:
Bottled Cloister
Ensnaring Bridge (only good with Bottled Cloister, and as pointed out above, you don't want that)
Tangle Wire
Wrath of God
Nomad Stadium
Drifting Meadow/Secluded Steppe
Zoetic Cavern
Forbidding Watchtower
Icatian Store
Rishadan Port
Mutavault
Karoo (and other white 2-mana bounce lands)
Stalking Stones
Academy Ruins
Tezzeret
Scourglass
Calciform Pools (and other Time Spiral Storage lands)
New Benalia
Chub Toad
As a rule of thumb: any land that comes into play tapped is considered bad for this deck.
Testworthy:
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Ajani, Vengeant
Battlegrace Angel
=============================================================================================================
Any comments or additions? What did I forget?
Edit: I've made every card clickable...yes, I was bored :) --Not bored enough to arrange it alphabetically...yet
Last edited by Skeggi; 10-03-2008 at 08:45 AM. Reason: added cards from Shards of Alara
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
That looks pretty good. Here are my ideas:
Even though I'm a very strong supporter of four maindeck Exalted Angels, I don't think they're absolutely mandatory, so I'd put them as 0-4. Pithing Needle should be in the sideboard, since it's perfectly valid as a more all-in replacement for Suppression Field. A singleton maindeck Ghost Quarter is also a serious option (for Blood Moon-vulnerable metagames, and probably for Angel-less builds). Also, while the fall of Empty the Warrens has made Keg/EE inferior to Disenchant effects, they're still worth mentioning.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Add Aven Mindcensor to the 'optional' list.
Last edited by Shawon; 08-13-2008 at 01:32 PM. Reason: The bold and the brave
Seems more like a sideboard card to me...
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Yeah, that's what I meant to say, sry.
Land:
0-1 Nomad Stadium,
SB options:
0-2 Sphere of Resistence (in a combo heavy meta - in case that exists)
0-2 Silent Arbiter
Sphere of Law (0-2)
(It's really good against goblins, burn, Dragon Stompy etc.)
Windborn Muse is also more of a SB card to me. (0-2) - only in addition with Cataclysm
-- actually most MD cards can be played in the SB, Exalted for instance.
So maybe those options should be dropped for the sake of clarity.
Also, as the list grows it might make sense to put the cards in alphabetical order.
Oh joy...ah well, I have no life anyway...
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Nonland
4 Creature Tabernacle - The creature Tabernacle is like always better than the land. Land is overpriced anyway
3 Trinisphere is good
4 Mox Diamond? - If you already have room for other versatility I guess but I much perfer some business spell here like Maze of the Ith or O RIng
4-6 Geddon efects? - Much too high becaus I dont panic and randomly cast a geddon effect. I currently play three and never get screwd
4-6 Prison effects? - At least! I just upped the count to 7 as this is key to the deck!
4 Crucible? - I play 3. Your number is too high generally because I play a draw engine and you dont. So I can see why you have to rely on stuff like this as you get outdrawn every game
4 Chalice! - Duh!
3-4 Smokestax - Depends on your other versatility. I usually go between 2 and 3, but usually 2 and I have more prison effects and a draw engine
Land
3-4 Flagstones? - If you like tempo screw run this many. I highly recomend running only 2!!
6-7 Plains - ok
2-4 Mishra's Factory - I run 2 Factory and 2 Blinkmoth nexus. The Blinkmoth is almost always better so I'm thinking about making this a permanant switch. Nexus fights the mirror's Exaulted Dragons and also Mystic Enforcer
2-4 Wasteland - Depends on my mood kinda, but usually you need at least one Ghost Quarter whcih is another reason I dont need 4-6 geddon effects
4 ancient tomb, 3 city of traitors - this fluctuates at times too but if you don't know what you are doing run this config I guess
Optional non-land
2-4 Exaulted Angel? - are you kidding? Angel is amazing in this deck how can you not run at least 3?
2-4 O Ring? - optional? this is a pure white vindicate! run as many as you can sneak in!!
1-2 Moat - this card is usually bad so play it if you like to lose to seige gang commander, grim lavamancer, exhalted angel, akroma, radkos pit dragon, sea drake, CLOUD OF FAERIES, etc.. among the many things i've lost to while playing this card. The tabernacle effects and prison effects are way betetr dont' get me started here!
1-2 Cataclysim - Terrible card if you play o ring, otherwise spectauler
Optional Land?
1-2 Horizon Canaopy? - Unless you don't like draw engines and enjoy getting outdrawn every game play 0-1. I am so happy with 2 it is great!
1 Kor Haven - blows compared to Maze of Ith
Maze of Ith - very, very solid I run this as a 1 of with 1 in the side board
God's Eye - surprizingly useful. a respectable choice
1 Ghost Quarter. - this card is no option. you must play at least 1, maybe 2. unless you reply on armageddon all day, which maybe you do
Looks tempting???!
Bottled Cloister - is amazing but I guess everyone else doesnt like a draw engine that is good against discard. my bad. Combine this with Horizon Cannopy and the deck becomes amazing!
Tangle wire - be advised: for those who get the deck only. Right because in combonation with prison and tabernacle effect this is useless! Yeah right! By itself it's like a draw engine !
Chub Toad?
I'd also like to recomend Ensnaring Bridge as it goes with 1/2 of your draw engine
My main problem with Bottled Cloister is that it always seems to get destroyed and there goes my hand. It is great against discard strategies, but lots of them splash w and vindicates. Oh tangle wire, if only we had lots of free mana sources like type 1.
Nice job Skeggi, lets keep up the quality work in this forum. I'll post some of my results with the optional cards tomorrow hopefully.
I'll start spewing forth my data on all the cards I've tested... It'll take a few days because of length...
Lands
General Comments...
I find the deck to perform most consistently when playing 24 to 25 lands. I really wish we could get away with a couple less, but Diamonds lose their effectiveness as the land count dwindles and big openings provide massive tempo advantage with Stax. I have tweaked my personal numbers to my style and my general set-up. I think the deck is very customizable and I have tried a number of options to investigate what works and when...
My Top Picks...
Flagstones of Trokair - I play 4. They are the equivalent of Plains. The only time I wished I played less is when my opponent already has one. Awesome with Smokestack Lock. You can play less, I guess...
Wasteland - I play 3. Situationally broken. 4 always seemed unecessary and I often found myself just using them for mana. Retarded with Crucible. One of my favorite plays is to 'waste' a fetch, have it be countered, and then Armageddon...
Ancient Tomb - I play 4. This is automatic, in my opinion. If you choose to play less than 4, you are hurting the deck. This is probably one of the few cards where I can't imagine a reason why you would run less...
City of Traitors - I play 3. Not quite an automatic 4-of. Double City openers are almost unplayable without Crucible. I found 3 to be the right number...
Plains - I play 8. I will sometimes only play 7 and go for another spell. You obviously need basic Plains, I prefer Unglued...
Mishra's Factory - I play 3. A recurrable win condition that can't be countered... I shouldn't have to explain any more. I have tested down to 2 and up to 4. I didn't find it as useful as other lands as a 4-of. And 2 can lengthen games to an unbearable point. 2 is doable, though...
Testers...
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - I tested 1-2. Non-mana producing lands are great since they can't be countered. 90% of the decks you need this against can't counter the Magus. The Magus can beat (act as a win condition). Tabernacles have to take up 'spell' slots. A 2/6 with this ability is better...
Maze of Ith - I tested 1-2. 2 non-mana producers is too much. I hate 1-ofs because of their inconsistency. Effective against the 1-big guy plan. Sucks pretty much everywhere else...
Kor Haven - I tested 1-2. Maze of Ith that produces mana. High cost for a Maze, though. Maze is basically 1 per turn once it is played. Kor Haven is 3 just when you want the effect. If I play Haven/Maze as my fourth land and intend to stop a 'Goyf/Negator for 3 turns... Maze costs 3 and Haven costs 9. I have not found Haven to be nearly as good as some have claimed it to be...
Gods' Eye Gate to the Rekai - I tested 1-2. Two is lousy since they are not synergistic in multiples like Flagstones. One is, of course, random. There are a lot of tricks to keep a Smokestack at 2 or higher, but they are just that - tricks. The times that they are necessary, you are trying to catch up and NEED the effect. random + need =/ good times. These are AWESOME in the mirror, though, since it breaks Crucible parity...
Ghost Quarter - I tested 1-2. Playing 2 makes you realize that this card is NOT wasteland. Playing 1 makes it feel like you are playing extra Wastelands. It will situationally feel like you are playing Strip Mine. I'm happy with 3 Wastelands, so it never made it to worthwhile. I could see using a couple in a build that really focused on Land Destruction. This may sound odd, but the Armageddon focus feeds into the 'taxation' theme - you don't care if your opponent has land, you just don't want him to be able to do anything with it...
Horizon Canopy - I've tested 1-3. 1 is random and feels like a waste of time/space. When you get it, you use it and it seems really good. If you don't see it, you either say you needed it because you lost or you don't notice it because you won. 2 feels like playing 1 extra win condition, since you just find a win condition a little faster. In a deck that seems to play so tight, I always felt like you were just better off saving the slots and increasing the number of actual win conditions. Playing 3, you notice the effect for sure - both of them. For me, drawing an extra card is nice when it's a card you needed. With no 'selection', I found it to be an effect that worked best once I had a lock, but then I was going to win anyways. Another way to think of it is to look at the 'engine' - Canopy + Crucible + 1 other land/mox = 3 card combo to draw 1 extra card per turn for 1 mana (since you get the Canopy back with Crucible). Aside from being a 3-card combo, it's not a bad effect - 1 card for 1 mana - except that it also costs you your land drop. If you 'break' the engine, you are basically drawing 1 card for 2 mana and sac a land. The point is - it's nice, but it's a very inefficient card draw source and the time/resources could probably be used in a more productive way...
Nomad Stadium - I tested 1-2. Waste of time...
Darksteel Citadel - I tested 1-2. Neat trick. This is another one that if you expect a mirror - this really skews the symmetry...
Drifting Meadow/Secluded Steppe - I tested 1-2. Not useful enough. Cycling is much, much better with Loam than Crucible (obviously)...
Zoetic Cavern - I tested 1-2. Weaker Factory. Can't come back as a creature which sucks...
Forbidding Watchtower - I tested 1-2. Sucks...
Calciform Pools (and other Time Spiral Storage lands) - I tested 1-2. It didn't suck, but I couldn't come up with a good use for the mana. Paying 2 for 1 mana on another turn seems like a good thing for this deck, I just couldn't seem to find what I needed it for...
Icatian Store - I tested 1-2. Sucks...
Karoo (and other white 2-mana bounce lands) - I tested 1-2. Too often you want to use your mana the turn you play it with this deck. You could really come up with a bastardized mana base to bounce a cycler or something. Too much 'neat' and not enough 'git 'er done'...
Mutavault - I tested 1-2. I didn't find the need for a 'worse' Factory...
New Benalia - I tested 1-2. Scry is nice but not worth the come into play tapped. This is, however, still good off Crucible and actually makes a nice little engine with Crucible/Smokestack/Tabernacle...
Rishadan Port - I tested 1-3. Too slow with Armageddon...
Stalking Stones - I tested 1-2. Sucks...
I think, short of splashes, that's all the different lands that I have tested in the deck at various points. What bothers me about the testing is that there are really only a couple of slots for 'better' lands in this deck, so making a change that maintains some sort of consistency is tough to say the least...
-FB...
Is this really a must? I've found Tabernacle effects to be underwhelming in almost every non-strict-aggro matchup lately, so I will be testing a list with only 2 effects main and some additional ones in the board. What do you think about this?
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
I play 3 maindeck Magus and 1 sideboard. Magus is one of the first spots that I look to side out since the effect is weak against anything not aggro or goblin token oriented. As long as the lock piece you are dropping him for is 'more appropriate' for you meta, it's entirely reasonable.
-FB...
I'd say 3-4 tabernacle effects is pretty much a must have, they just help so much with ghostly or mess with peoples tempo nicely. They do get sb'd out in strickly non-agro matches often. FYI I run 2 magus, 2 lands.
I recently thru this deck together and so far, I really enjoy play 4 Magus and 2-4 Windborn Muse over 2 Exalted Angel.
Locking down your opponent with 6-8 Ghostly Prison, 4 Tabernacle and 4 Armageddon seems a lot more powerful, and shutting down your opponent's attack phase completely is crazy strong and just as good at preserving your life total.
So who here runs Exalted Angel, and who opts for Windborn Muse or something else instead?
I know everyone has dismissed it but in my limited testing without angels and with tangle wires i was liking the results. I never play against goblins and I will grant you that against a swarm deck it is not that hot, but it taps down control's mana early on to push through an extra threat. I like the tempo it can generate. That said I am not an expert, and other testers have had poor results...caveat emptor. I guess, if you are in an aggro light meta give it a shot!
BTW this is the most mature and productive thread I have seen in quite a while!!!!
A very nice post there FB, I think that clears alot up for alot of us, however:
Your last sentence here: a 2/6 with this ability is better; I think this assumption is flawed: it is a 2/6 which obviously costs 4 mana more to play, and has an upkeep of 1. Given, you save your landdrop, but the land allows you to Geddon+Tabernacle, the Magus simply is too expensive for this trick.
In a known meta with enough aggro, or a random unknown meta, I'd bring 4 Tabernacle effects. If your meta is full of Breakfast, TES, Fetchland Tendrils, Ichorid and the like, you may want to play Thresh or Landstill ;) I'll adjust to 3-4 though.
I run 2 Exalted Angels and 2 Muses. Prison effects are nice, I know, but once you play a Geddon, 1 Prison effect suffices. You must also not underestimate the Exalted Angel, once on table, it may be one of the best creatures in the current meta. It has evasion and pounds, so it sets a nice clock, plus, if you read back a couple of pages, you can read about the 'Angel-lock': if your opponent doesn't hit you for at least 4 life per turn, his chances of ever winning are very slim; but in the meantime, the angel stomps him for 4 life: meaning the Angel creates an 8-life gap every turn. This is huge.
Can you give me an example of your play? Most people I know have come to the conclusion Tangle Wire sucks throughout the entire format.
Yup, thanks to T is for Tool :)
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
Took this deck to a 21 Man tourney in my area,
Went 4 - 1 - 1 and landed 3 place.
And I must say I'm particularly fond of Armageddon Stax, haven't had that much fun in a while.
I believe Armageddon Stax's list is pretty much standard, with cards being cut/added depending on your preference, play style and meta.
What I'm more concerned is the sideboards options. Most seems pretty obvious, but i find it hard to come-up with a solid list that would be viable to an unknown meta?
Here's what I played.
4 LoTV - I couldn't find my Crypts so I had to play with these, luckily I didn't have to use them.
3 Suppression Field - Godsend in matches that I boarded them in, particularly vs Rifter, should have mattered vs. Slivers.
2 Aura of Silence - Again another great card, boarded them in vs Affinity and Rifter.
3 Seal of Cleansing - So, so... I didn't really have that much cards to play with so I had to do with these.
1 Magus of the Tabernacle - Had 3 MD, just in case I needed a fourth.
2 Exalted Angel - Had 2 MD, boarded them in vs rifter.
Now, with GP manila coming this month, I'm really looking forward to taking this deck to the said event, and with the unpredictability of the local meta, and the unknown decks that foreigners would probably play. I really need some input regarding on what cards should be on my sideboard.
3 Suppression field seems pretty much standard to me, as with the 2 Aura of Silence, but other than that I pretty much have 10 open sideboard slots.
Also, would there be a reason to play Wheel of Sun and Moon vs. Tormod's Crypt?
First off, congratulations on your third place
What's a LoTV?
For sideboard suggestions; check my post a bit up in this thread:Yes, there are various reasons to play Wheel of Sun and Moon over Tormod's Crypt:
Reason #1: PainterStone - however this leads to a draw - you'd rather board in your Suppression Fields and Auras of Silence.
Reason #2: there is not chance for your opponent to recover the GY as long as Wheel is in play: Tormod's Crypt is a 1-shot thing.
Reason #3: unaffected by Pithing Needle
The reason not to run Wheel of Sun and Moon is obviously the WW in it's casting cost; and a bit more far-fetched: the chance of you playing a chalice@2 is bigger than you playing a chalice@0.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
I'd say the main point in favour of Magus is that it, alone, usually handles a single Tarmogoyf while Rishadan Porting the opponent.
The same thing incidentally applies to Exalted Angel. There is often little difference between lifegain and Maze of Ith effects.
LotV = Leyline of the Void
And I'm pretty sure there's no reason to play any graveyard hate in the sideboard of Stax, since every graveyard deck out there is just as if not more affected by other, more versatile hate (usually Suppression Field, Pithing Needle, or extra taxing effects)
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
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