[Deck] Dread Stalker

[Illissius]

Are you sure thet vision charm is better than Trickbind? While vision could also be used to save a Tombstalker (but it only fears Swords), Trickbind complements the mana-denial strategy and Split Second sometimes really helps.

I'm not sure whether you're not mentioning the obvious because it's obvious or because you actually didn't notice, but Vision Charm lets you accelerate Tombstalker. By a whole fucking lot.

Otherwise, I'm just giving my rationale for including certain cards in this first draft of the deck and not including others, but it's not like I have veto power over what anyone else chooses to do with it. Feel free to take it in whatever direction you like and report the results.

[Alfred]

It's been a loooong time since I've played versus high tide. You're sure that works right, but only if they don't have a second high tide in hand.

That's the same thing as if you countered it: hope they don't have another High Tide. It also wastes the first one, which is a plus.

[SuckerPunch]

Wasteland kind of sucks here. You always need atleast BB to cast Tombstalker. There are barely any colorless costs in the cc of any of the cards. More colored lands means you can play more cantrips. So I'm not playing Wasteland.

I'm trying out this list for this deck...

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tombstalker
4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Snuff Out
3 Duress (Possibly Lightning Greaves)
2 Swamp
2 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Undergroun Sea

What do you think of the list?

I'm wondering if Lightning Greaves as a way to protect my threats and give them all haste has potential.

But what do YOU think?

Is Duress just straight up better than Lightning Greaves at protecting your threats from removal, all while being cheaper to cast and feeding the yard?

Should the deck play Phyrexian Negator for more beatdown?

Is Lightning Greaves too sucky of a card for this deck?

Is 18 lands too low even with a curve so low and 8 cantrips?

[BreathWeapon]

I've had reasonable success with the following,

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins

SB

4 Tombstalker
4 Meddling Mage
4 Yixlid Jailor
1 Tormod's Crypt

Concentrating on Phyrexian Dreadnought and Counterbalance game 1 and then bringing Tombstalker and Meddling Mage off the bench is a solid plan.

[SuckerPunch]

Tombstalker is half the reason to play Vision Charm. This deck is too low on threats as is. That's why I'm trying out Negator.

Cutting Tombstalker is a big no no imho.

I mean, the name of the deck is Dread Stalker for a reason. Tombstalker wins games.

[SuckerPunch]

Okay, time to post my thoughts.

1.) The DECK FREAKING ROCKS. It's seriously a house. Granted, I played it versus a bunch of noobs playing random ass decks. But I seriously won like 90% of the games I played. By playing both Duress and Thoughtseize, and using Vision Charms to protect your Dreadnought and both FoW and Daze on top of that to make sure your threats resolve, it becomes damn near impossible for your opponent to take out your threats. And they win so freaking fast.

2.) Wasteland doesn't belong. Your threats are so freaking big and fast that the only cards you care about dealing with are combo and cards that can take out your threats (StP, FoW etc). Duress, Thoughtseize, FoW and Daze all do that. Wasteland doesn't. But cutting Wastelands, you can more reliably get BB for Tombstalker, all while cutting back on your land count and making room for Duress.

3.) Even 18 lands seems to be too much. With all the cantrips, and the fact that every single card in the deck with the exception of Tombstalker is either free to cast or has a cc of 1, I think the deck could possibly go down to as little as 16 lands and fare just fine. 17 seems ideal. But maybe 18 is right and I just randomly got mana flooded (though I doubt I lost a single game due to mana flooding).

4.) Why the hell didn't this deck ever take off? Even the opening post's list was close to perfect if it just cut the useless Wastelands for Duress. Yes, the deck does autolose to a turn one Chalice at 1 while you are on the draw and don't have a FoW. But assuming you're on the play, you also get Daze, Duress and Thoughtseize to make sure that doesn't happen.

[Hanni]

3.) Why the hell didn't this deck ever take off? Even the opening post's list was close to perfect if it just cut the useless Wastelands for Duress. Yes, the deck does autolose to a turn one Chalice at 1 while you are on the draw and don't have a FoW. But assuming you're on the play, you also get Daze, Duress and Thoughtseize to make sure that doesn't happen.

Plus there's also postboard, where you get EE. If Chalice/Counterbalance is prevalent in a particular metagame, I'd recommend maindeck EE. Otherwise, like you said, you should be fine.

A 2-of Cunning Wish could also be good for that as well without running EE maindeck by running a tight compact toolbox of...

1 Trickbind
1 Echoing Truth/Wipe Away
1 Extirpate
1 Ghastly Demise/Diabolic Edict
1 Misdirection

... and then whatever else you wanna toss in there.

Not saying I'd run Cunning Wish in the deck, just saying that if Chalice/Counterbalance is plaguing the meta, it's an option. However, if that were the case, I'd probably play a different deck anyway.

I have no clue why Dreadstalker doesn't see more play. The deck is really good.

On an unrelated note, I'd really like to see a Haunting Echoes somewhere in the 75 (probably sideboard). With only 17 mana sources, hitting 3BB is going to take a long time but the card is intended for the control matchup where the games go long anyway, or against multiple Extirpates on Nought/Stalker, where you have no other option but to wait (as I cannot think of any better alternate win conditions).

[SuckerPunch]

All those cards are too narrow imho.

I already play Duress, Thoughtseize, Daze and FoW. That is 15 cards, a full fourth of the deck devoted to either free or 1cc cards that simultanously protect your threats from StP AND proactively stop problem cards like Chalice, Counterbalance and such before your opponent gets a chance to play them.

I think that even Snuff Out should be cut for a 4th Duress and 2x Cabal Therapy because the versatility these cards provide in letting you answer pretty much everything is fantastic.

I seriously never cared about an opponents Goyf enough to want a Snuff Out over a discard spell or countermagic to protect my bigger and faster threat (and make sure it resolves).

The only thing I would want versus the control matchup is Ancestral Visions.

I've played control decks (MUC and such), and this decks takes the traditional wisdom (aggro beats control) to new heights. You play way more ways to stop their countermagic than they play actual countermagic.

[Hanni]

Here's what my Dreadstalker looks like...

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [U] Underground Sea
2 [IA] Island (2)
2 [6E] Swamp (2)
1 [U] Tropical Island
1 [U] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [VI] Vision Charm
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [7E] Duress
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed

The green splash is definitely worth a little instability to the manabase. Maindeck Deed is extremely strong, while postboard Grips are a pretty much mandatory for this deck.

Pernicious Deed goes a long way towards answering any problematic permanents that slip through the countermagic/discard. The ability to remove turn 1 Chalices or Counterbalances that get through can be mean a win when you would have otherwise lost. Deed brings you back from behind and that's why I think it's inclusion in the deck is very strong. Tombstalker and Shriekmaw are both completely resillient to Deed, which almost make it asymetrical. If you have a Dreadnought on the table, there is absolutely no need to pop a Deed in almost any situation, so they don't even conflict.

If you ask me, Deed + Tombstalker is infinitely better than WoG + Factory. Aside from that fact that you don't get Standstill, which is a the reason why you'd play Landstill, the win conditions are much better in this "control" deck.

You don't need additional removal beyond Deed, because in a way, the Dreadnoughts are creature removal spells. Plus you already have 1 Shriekmaw.

Shriekmaw is a very nice alternate win condition. You really want at least 3 win conditions in case of Extirpate. Shriekmaw isn't irrelevant when you don't need it as a beater because you can pay 1B and destroy a creature instead. Even with only 7 lands, the deck has 8 cantrips and can eventually ramp up to 5 mana. You won't need to rely on Shriekmaw as a win condition very often. An evasive 3/2 is pretty solid, especially when it destroys a creature when it comes into play. Killing Tarmogoyf and getting a Shriekmaw is a really strong 2-for-1 trade.

Krosan Grip answers things you cannot play effectively through like a resolved Counterbalance. That's very important.

The Tarmogoyf's in the board come in against decks packing Extirpate or against combo decks where you want a (more consistent) faster clock.

HOWEVER, this deck can drop the board control element of Deed and instead drop the Shriekmaw and run 4 Tarmogoyf. Personally, I don't think Tarmogoyf > Deed in this deck. Maybe it's just me, but Tarmogoyf still suffers from resolved Counterbalances as well as things like Chalice, Humility, and a ton of other nasty stuff. However, I'm sure alot more people would prefer to run 4 Tarmogoyf and I'm sure the deck is still amazing with Tarmogoyf instead of Deed.

[SuckerPunch]

I don't understand what exactly concerns you enough to think Deed or Krosan Grip postboard is needed.

Like I said, on top of FoW, you have Duress, Thoughtseize, Daze and now Cabal Therapy as well (I cut the 3 Snuff Out for the 4th Thoughtseize and 2 Cabal Therapy).

All those cards are more than enough to ensure that problem cards don't resolve in the first place.

A turn one resolved Chalice when you're on the play can be bad, yes, that's the one thing you can't do a thing about if you don't have a FoW handy, but for that to occur...

1. You have to be on the play.

2. You dont' have a FoW in hand.

3. Your opponent plays a deck with both Chalice and 2 manalands or acceleration.

4. Your opponent has both a Chalice and a 2 mana land in the opening hand.

The odds of all that happening is probably under 1%.

Counterbalance and such pretty much never hit turn one.

As long as you get a single turn, a Duress, Thoughseize, Cabal Therapy or Daze will deal with any and every possible problem card out there. And they're not even needed if you have a FoW in hand.

If you really want insurance incase a problem permanent does resolve, Rushing River is a great option. You odn't have to splash a color. It buys you tempo by bouncing back two cards, and letting you use your Duress to then discard the problem one.

But insurance is not needed.

The deck fares just fine without splashing any more colors imo. Though the green splash just for goyf is intriguing. Since the one and only problem I've seen with the deck is that it only plays 8 threats (though it seems to have an endless number of ways to protect them).

[Hanni]

Daze doesn't ensure that Counterbalance or Tarmogoyf are answered and FoW/Thoughtseize/Duress aren't always going to hit everything. Sometimes, your two card combo win conditions get countered even with all of your disruption, sometimes you don't find them right away. Discard does nothing to topdecked answers/threats.

I see no reason to not run Deed in here, even if it wasn't needed because of the countermagic/discard. It's just so synergistic with your win conditions that it's almost like playing Wrath God and Mishra's Factory; you clean the board and your threats don't die. Tombstalker is good against Tarmogoyf; Tombstalker is even better when you Deed away Tarmogoyf(s). You can't rely on Dreadnought to win you every game.

The other major factor for Deed is that it brings you back from behind. The only other card that does that for you is Dreadnought and that is a disruptable 2 card combo that bites it to Counterbalance/Chalice, which Pernicious Deed just happens to blow up.

You don't have to believe me or like the green splash, I'm just explaining my reason for it. Personally I feel that there is absolutely no reason to not splash green, but that just my opinion. Take it as you will.

EDIT: Why isn't this deck in the Established Forum? Should I PM an admin or something?

[Nihil Credo]

EDIT: Why isn't this deck in the Established Forum

For "finished" decks: Decks which are optimized and thoroughly tested. A deck is not required to have proven itself in a competitive tournament environment to be included in the Open Forum, but it is recommended. A thorough writeup including card choices, strategy, and matchup descriptions is required.

The deck is still in the development phase: fundamental card choices, building a sideboard, etc... I've played with it and I'd say it's better than 98% of the other stuff in N&D, but it's still not ready for Established.

[BreathWeapon]

What's the reasoning behind not MDing Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top in a deck whose curve is 2?

Splashing Green for Pernicious Deed in a Tombstalker/Phyrexian Dreadnought deck just seems really bad, you're not running Tarmogoyf and Krosan Grip isn't doing anything Vindicate or Engineered Explosives couldn't do.

[Koala]

(I posted it a week ago)
I have been testing a list here on Brazil, and a i finally found a good list.I made i Top 2 on a 70 players champ, and a Top4 on a 30 Good players champ with this list. I already try to use counterbalance, standstill or even grinder, but it doesn't work so well. I made that list thinking about the number of aggro decks (i mean goyf) and combo decks here in Brazil. Here it goes:

UGBide

3 Trinket Mage
3 DreadNought
4 Stifle
2 Tombstalker
4 Goyf
4 FoW
4 Daze
1 E.Explosives
2 Sensei Top
4 B.Storm
1 Wipe away
3 Duress
3 Smother
1 Pernicious Deed

19 lands + 1 academy ruins


SB

2 P.Deed
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trick bind
1 T.Mage
1 Dread nought
1 E.Truth
X xxxxxxx

*:

1 - i really hated to use counterbalance.Really. The best effort that i did to my counterbalances was remove it out of the game (fow, obvious)

2 - Goyf and Nought i haven't explain why, but tombstalker it's the guts to win. Tombstalker(my sweet Batman) don't care for smother or deeds

3 - Goblins is becomig a "little" problem to me. My goyfs didn't do anything after 3 turn passed..The only way to win the match is survive enough to my batman's attack 4 time or do a Nought/Stifle turn 2 or 3...I got no idea what i have to do...Help????

4 - 2 Trickbind,1 T.Mage,1 Dreadnought in SB: Yes, Aggro kills

What do you think?

[SuckerPunch]

Before reaching that list, did you try out what I posted...

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...4&postcount=23

It's a much faster list that runs on a much lower curve and plays just as much fat as your list.

[BreathWeapon]

Is no one else splashing /w for Meddling Mage? Being able to name Krosan Grip is ridiculously good when you're running both Phyrexian Dreadnought and Counterbalance. /w has Hoof Prints of the Stag, Jotun Grunt, Meddling Mage, Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate/Oblivion Ring and Enlightened Tutor, that's more options in either /r or /g even tho' Krosan Grip and Tarmogoyf's power levels are unmatched.

I'm still not seeing the point of MD Tombstalkers, just concentrating on either Phyrexian Dreadnought or Counterbalance seems to be enough game 1.

[SuckerPunch]

Did you actually try out Tombstalker before saying that?

The point of MD Tombstalker becomes blatantly obvious the instant that you pick up the list posted in the opening post (-3 Wasteland, -1 Snuff Out, +4 Duress).

This is a lightning fast deck. Unfortunately, you won't see Dreadnought early on every game. Having a second huge beater that's just as broken with Vision Charm and significantly more resilent than Dreadnought (due to it's color and casting cost), is nuts.

If you want to play a slow version with Top, Counterbalance and Meddling Mage, please head on over to the Dreadstill thread where they already pretty much optimized such a version.

[BreathWeapon]

Did you actually try out Tombstalker before saying that?

The point of MD Tombstalker becomes blatantly obvious the instant that you pick up the list posted in the opening post (-3 Wasteland, -1 Snuff Out, +4 Duress).

This is a lightning fast deck. Unfortunately, you won't see Dreadnought early on every game. Having a second huge beater that's just as broken wih Vision Charm and significantly more resilent than Dreadnought (due to it's color and casting cost), is nuts.

If you want to play a slow version with Top, Counterbalance and Meddling Mage, please head on over to the Dreadstill thread where they already pretty much optimized such a version.

I have the same relative threat density and a faster clock, and when I SB in Tombstalker, it's only to diversify my threats against MD board removal and SB artifact/enchantment removal. Yes, Tombstalker is good, but I don't see what need he's filling when Enlightened Tutor pulls the deck together just as well.

Edit: I was running Dreadnoughts before any one else on this site, lay off the character attacks.

[Hanni]

You have to actually play DreadStalker to understand why we play Tombstalker.

Turn 2 Tombstalker is very hard to answer or race. Even if the opponent eventually has two 4/5 Tarmogoyf's and can race, Tombstalker easily sits back on defense until the deck draws into Pernicious Deed or Dreadnought/Stifle and wipes the board or pushes through.

Tombstalker also has better synergy with Pernicious Deed, which is why I run it over CounterTop. 8 countermagic/8 discard is more tempo-oriented than Counterbalance and is why I think it is stronger in a DreadStalker shell; you don't need to protect Dreadnought for more than a few turns.

U/B/g is more aggro/control oriented than versions without additional aggro or Meddling Mage. While not strictly better, it's the playstyle I'd prefer to take with this deck.

[Benie Bederios]

Nice deck, I tested the deck in the opening post( only 4-off's is so sexy) and it is the deck I was looking for, for a long time. It plays like Gro-a-Tog in Vintage mixed with Eva Green. Every card is so well chosen. Most matchups are quite winnable, tested against Belcher, Thresh, Landstill, Ichorid and Aggro-Loam.

I don't have testing result yet( most times it was just 1 match, except Landstill). I won against Belcher just slow roll in the beginning and keep mana open for Stifle and you're in good shape(2-0). Thresh was about even(2-1). Snuff Out where the best cards in the deck in this matchup and I wouldn't switch those. Ichorid is quite hard, but quite winnable(1-2). There are quite some cute tricks like playing a Dreadnought to kill Bridges. They can go fast though, through your counters and Extirpate isn't that good against them. Aggro-Loam is winnable when you start fast(2-1). They have no way to deal with your creatures in the early turns, but there creatures can grow quite fast.

The matchup where I really encountered problems was UWb Landsstill( 1-2, 0-2, 2-1, 0-2) They just control the game in the early turns, if your opponent has FoW and StP it is really though. Sometimes I could screw them out of the game with Stifle+Wasteland, but there manabase is to solid too really stop them, opposed to the 4 color version.

Any tips for the control-matchup?

About splashing green. Why for Pernicious Deed and not Tarmogoyf MD? This deck want's to win fast, not try to control the board, by adding 3 sweepers. Goyf is another big beater that can win the game fast, quite good with Charm and 2 CC means EE has to fire twice to sweep your board. Adding Deed to this deck is like adding Deed to Eva Green or UBg Thresh or adding Wrath of God to UGw Thresh. It isn't syenergic with the rest of the deck.

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