[Deck] Armageddon Stax

[_erbs_]

I guess it will all depend on your preferences if you use exalted angel or battlegrace angel.

They have there pros and cons, but what i don't like about the battlegrace angel is that she can't be used as a blocker for cause 4/4 is kinda weak, yes she costs 1cc less but its like playing a serra angel. yes she would have a stronger offensive power by 1 point compared to exalted or serra if shes the only one that would attack.

Guys are you prepared for this equipment card

Quietus Spike
Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature has deathtouch.
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, that player loses half his or her life, rounded up.
Equip 3

With no direct removal this is going to be a pain with no recuring mishra to block it.

[Arsenal]

What's the casting cost on this bad boy?

[f|i[p]]

Don't get me wrong erbs, I'm not replacing exalted angels with battlegrace angels. I am playing 2 battlegrace angels(or elspeth) IN ADDITION to exalted angels.

I don't think that quietus spike equipment will be played in legacy.

[Skeggi]

What's the casting cost on this bad boy?

I've been testing Ajani myself. Remember, that other planeswalker we got so excited about when he spoiled. He has proven useful, but I haven't tested him enough; basically so far, against MUC, I used ability #1 to slow him down, and when he had 7 loyalty counters, it was win

I've seen others use his Lightning Helix first turn he comes into play, which is still an ok thing to do I guess, because after that he's still a threat that needs to be removed, and sometimes, they can't and they get that 1 sided Geddon thrown at them. I like Ajani, but as said before, he needs more testing.

About the Canonist:
I don't see any value over Rule of Law. In fact, I think I would prefer Rule of Law. But that card doesn't even make it to my sideboard.

About Elspeth:
I think Ajani is probably better. His second and third ability are alot better than Elspeth's. Ofcourse, Elspeth doesn't require the red splash. But still, 1 soldier per turn...when he was spoiled as 2 soldiers per turn, yeah, he rocked. But now, I think he kinda sucks. The flying ability seems win more. The last ability still needs a Geddon to be broken. Guess what: Ajani's ability is a Geddon without your land being destroyed.

I'm not saying Elspeth is bad. I just think you'd rather have Ajani filling those slots. I do find, when playing any Planeswalker, you're potentially making a Goyf bigger. Extra Goyf-carefulness is in place.

About Battlegrace Angel:
As said before probably best used in combination with Exalted Angel: if you're running 3 Exalted Angels, it's probably worth it to drop 1 for Battlegrace for instance.

[The Wes]

I think a 12/12 trampler is still more of a problem than that equipment. Either ways, 3 to cast, 3 to equip is a lot for many decks. I don't think we'll have to deal with it that much except for maybe in a random deck or two, but this is legacy, we're used to randomness.

[hugh1130]

I think a 12/12 trampler is still more of a problem than that equipment. Either ways, 3 to cast, 3 to equip is a lot for many decks. I don't think we'll have to deal with it that much except for maybe in a random deck or two, but this is legacy, we're used to randomness.

from my expiernce with the equipment at prerealse

a 1/1 swinging twice to bring you to 4 is really tough to stand down.

[_erbs_]

Im guessing several sui decks likes slygoyf , burn decks, or slyhanna ledgewalker type decks would be definitely use Quietus Spike. Imagine that all of your opponents 1/1 critter could smack you like a phyrexian dreadnought. With no recuiring blockers the angels or magus can't even match those 1/1 critters.

[The Wes]

It still costs 3 to play, then 3 to equip, and it subject to most other decks instant removal. There are a lot worse things that the opponent can do turn three and four that I'd worry about more. I can't see it being that big of a problem, its not that hard to have an a factory online by turn 4, and so what if it gets deathtouched, thats why we recure. If we've let then get to the point that they can pay to drop it, pay to equip it, then attack after paying tabernacle and ghostly costs all in the same turn then we already have some problems. If they have have to do it two different turns then it shouldn't be a surprize. We run side board o rings to try and stop it, and s fields to make it so they aren't realisticly even going to equip it before turn 5. I'm not saying it wouldn't be problematic, but in legacy there are a lot worse things to see on the other side of the table. Dreadnaught can have you dead turn 4 with the right hand and so can many other decks and you are really that worried about a card that could make you loose half you life turn 4? I'm much more worried about all the artifact/enchant destruction of goyfsly decks, and I dont' remember ever having a problem with a ledgewalker deck. Any mono red burn deck shouldn't be running creatures anyway, especially not enough to support equipment. Jitte scares me more, swords of light and shadow/fire and ice scare me more.

[Skeggi]

First off, with Chalice@1 or Trinisphere, Dreadnought is hard to get through. When he does get through, he often poses a problem indeed, if you have no Oblivion Ring or Aura of Silence.

I think underestimating Quietus Spike is dumb. Rather than saying "Bah, we don't have to come up with something against it, it won't be played much, or the threat won't be so big." I'd like to say "Okay, even if the odds are against it, if this poses as a threat in Goyf Sligh or White Weenie or Eva Green for instance, what can we do about it?".

The obvious answer to question number 2 is: a recurring Factory. While this is a very good way to deal with a threat, it limits your land drops, and that has killed me a few times in the past. So I'd like to hear another solution? Maze of Iths? Kor Havens? Oblivion Rings? They all sound like good sollutions, but what would be best? Arguably, I think Oblivion Ring, since it's such an all-round threat remover. With the current gamestate with the new Planeswalkers and other nasty stuff, I think I must conclude Oblivion Ring will have 2 or 3 spots in my main deck. I'm also reconsidering Kor Haven, since Oblivion Ring is a slower answer.

[badjuju]

Keep in mind (I'm sure you all already know, but just as a reminder) that Elspeth is not protected by Ghostly Prison (same with Ajani Vengeant). This could be pretty relevant in several cases, but as FB argues - buying 1 or even 2 turns can prove to be crucial plays. If Elspeth STICKS, then she'll be a ridiculous amount of time bought. Note that Elspeth herself is unaffected by Magus of the Tabernacle, but the soldier tokens generated have anti-synergy with Magus of the Tabernacle.

I also agree with the idea of running O-Rings maindeck. I've run into enough situations where it has seriously saved my ass that I already MD 2. I'm not sure if Elspeth, Battlegrace Angel, or Ethersworn Canonist fit that niche well enough, but further testing will answer that.

Also, whatever happened to testing Runed Halo. Did anyone try it? Was it any good? I've tried it in Quinn and it was pretty solid.

[kidsmokin]

Keep in mind (I'm sure you all already know, but just as a reminder) that Elspeth is not protected by Ghostly Prison (same with Ajani Vengeant). This could be pretty relevant in several cases, but as FB argues - buying 1 or even 2 turns can prove to be crucial plays. If Elspeth STICKS, then she'll be a ridiculous amount of time bought. Note that Elspeth herself is unaffected by Magus of the Tabernacle, but the soldier tokens generated have anti-synergy with Magus of the Tabernacle.

Imagine Giant Growth-ing+Jumping your Tabernacle each turn to beat face for 5 each turn, which STILL helps get towards the whole Indestructible shenanigans. Hell, except for the Lifelink and the whole "you need two cards" deal it's (kind of almost but not really) just as good as Exalted Angel...and by that I mean 10000x more ghetto-esque.

Something to think about. And I fully support O-Ring in the MD, stupid random problems get solved by it. I think I personally MD'd 3, though I think 2 is the better number.

Edit: Regarding Quietus Spike, as long as you have MD Oblivion Ring I don't see an issue, but if it becomes common, just run more O-Ring. O-Ring might be slow, but it virtually catches everything so the trade-off seems worthwhile. Or board in artifact hate. There's not too much to it. But I don't think Quietus Spike will see a whole lot of play, they'd much rather, you know, run a dude or some more burn/disruption.

[badjuju]

Imagine Giant Growth-ing+Jumping your Tabernacle each turn to beat face for 5 each turn, which STILL helps get towards the whole Indestructible shenanigans. Hell, except for the Lifelink and the whole "you need two cards" deal it's (kind of almost but not really) just as good as Exalted Angel...and by that I mean 10000x more ghetto-esque.

This scenario doesn't help the case for Elspeth at all. Stax doesn't need cards that "giant growth and jump" stuff, it needs win conditions that compliment the other functions of the deck (or make up for its lack there of). We know that's Elspeth's second ability is cool to have with another creatures, but we don't always have that luxury. In other words, we need cards that are superbly strong on their own and not shove them into scenarios where they need something else to depend on in order to be good.

One of Stax's major problems (in my experience) is its horrible dependency on draws. Your opening hand very blatantly dictates what your gameplan is, and everything after that is left up to fate. A lot of people are posting godlike scenarios or win-more scenarios that the deck just doesn't always have. I'm not saying those situations should be discounted, but chances are if you're ready to start swinging with a creature you've probably already got the board locked down - at that point it doesn't matter if you win with a Youthful Knight or an Akroma, because your opponent is in no way able to retaliate.

[Skeggi]

Imagine Giant Growth-ing+Jumping your Tabernacle each turn to beat face for 5 each turn, which STILL helps get towards the whole Indestructible shenanigans. Hell, except for the Lifelink and the whole "you need two cards" deal it's (kind of almost but not really) just as good as Exalted Angel...and by that I mean 10000x more ghetto-esque.

This is so wrong. Elspeth doesn't complement or replace Exalted Angel in any way. Remember you can't use Elspeth's ability when trying to block for instance. That's a big shortcoming in my perspective. This is an aggressive ability, and we have no use for it.

Let me just paint a clear picture on how I view the two new Planeswalkers:

• Elspeth's first ability is useful, it lets your Smokestack stick at two. But so can Flagstones and God's Eye to the Reikai. No real need here to get Elspeth.
• Elspeth's second ability is near useless. We're not a stompy deck. If you want to build a deck that pounds face, you shouldn't play Stax. We're all about the taxing effects, which lead to control, and finally, a hardlock. Jumping and pumping creatures is fun, but it's not a good reason to include Elspeth.
• Elspeth's third ability is only useful in combination with Armageddon. If she ever gets there. May I remind you, she starts at 4, so she needs at least 4 more turns to accomplish this. If you want to use this ability against, say, Trygon Predator, Elspeth will be long gone by then, as her face has been stomped by that same Predator. If you want to use this ability against Krosan Grip or Shattering Spree, your artifacts will be long gone before Elspeth reaches this ability. So: only good with Armageddon. And Armageddon is already good with a card called Crucible of Worlds. I guess that card rings a bell with you guys.

So, in short: there are no good reasons to run Elspeth. She doesn't fill any gaps or weaknesses Stax has. She is total, complete and utter rubbish in Stax (yes, now I'm saying Elspeth is bad ).

Now, I'll move on to Ajani.

• Ajani's first ability complements the idea of Stax. It helps slow the opponent down, and does buy time. It's not the reason why we want Ajani, but it helps.
• Ajani's second ability is spot removal! Something we lack in Stax. That's nice, this guy shoots the Trygon Predator right out of the air, and wipes the smile of the smuck face of your opponent who thinks he has you by dropping a Predator. It also kills early Goyf and Bob. Not too shabby ey? Oh, there's more: on top of things, you also gain 3 life. Now that's a fun bonus to something that rocks.
• Ajani's third ability is a one sided Armageddon. Against some decks, you will see you can actually use it, as I've pointed out before, a match against MUC for instance, this is pretty useful. Once Ajani is on the table, this ability can't be countered. Bye-bye MUC. I'm sure it's useful in other match-ups as well.

I still can't really conclude Ajani is worth the trouble, but if you are going to run a Planeswalker, Ajani is the one to throw in your deck. I'm playing with two Plateaus (and two Ajani's) and I've never had a problem to produce the .

[Noman Peopled]

[*]Elspeth's first ability is useful, it lets your Smokestack stick at two. But so can Flagstones and God's Eye to the Reikai. No real need here to get Elspeth.

You missed that the token can chump. I remember beaing beaten by a single Goyf that my opponent can pay for on a semi-regular basis. It's not like an opponent is likely to blow his Deed/Explosives @ zero.
Also, to whoever said that Magus and Elspeth don't mix: if you're chumping, this is irrelevant. If you're attacking, you can pump Magus instead.

Apart from that, I tend to agree.
Elspeth does complement the anti-aggro lock pieces (and Smokestack) to a certain extent but I'm really not sure if that's enough given that its second ability is hardly unique and its third will often win games you'd have won anyway.

Essentially, Ajani does the same thing to a single big attacker. It's worse if your opponent has some creatures to choose from. But it is much more versatile, being able to play Stone Rain until there's something to burn and the like.
Removal is something Stax is in very short supply of, and despite not being able to kill Mongeese and Goyfs, the second ability is clearly more useful than Elspeth's in my view. (At least one guy was boarding a full number of Teegs and MMages for the Stax matchup ...) Needless to say, lifegain can be huge here. //edit: oh, and killing permanents should help with Stack.
The third ability is not something I'd be counting on bringing online but at least it doesn't need Armageddon or an opponent's late-late-late-game bomb topdeck to be effective.

[Skeggi]

You missed that the token can chump. I remember beaing beaten by a single Goyf that my opponent can pay for on a semi-regular basis. It's not like an opponent is likely to blow his Deed/Explosives @ zero.

A recurring chumpblocker for doesn't seem worth the trouble Besides, after you use it to chump, he can't be used for Smokestack, which was the main reason Elspeth would be interresting.

[Fred Bear]

This is so wrong. Elspeth doesn't complement or replace Exalted Angel in any way. Remember you can't use Elspeth's ability when trying to block for instance. That's a big shortcoming in my perspective. This is an aggressive ability, and we have no use for it.

Let me just paint a clear picture on how I view the two new Planeswalkers:

• Elspeth's first ability is useful, it lets your Smokestack stick at two. But so can Flagstones and God's Eye to the Reikai. No real need here to get Elspeth.
• Elspeth's second ability is near useless. We're not a stompy deck. If you want to build a deck that pounds face, you shouldn't play Stax. We're all about the taxing effects, which lead to control, and finally, a hardlock. Jumping and pumping creatures is fun, but it's not a good reason to include Elspeth.
• Elspeth's third ability is only useful in combination with Armageddon. If she ever gets there. May I remind you, she starts at 4, so she needs at least 4 more turns to accomplish this. If you want to use this ability against, say, Trygon Predator, Elspeth will be long gone by then, as her face has been stomped by that same Predator. If you want to use this ability against Krosan Grip or Shattering Spree, your artifacts will be long gone before Elspeth reaches this ability. So: only good with Armageddon. And Armageddon is already good with a card called Crucible of Worlds. I guess that card rings a bell with you guys.

So, in short: there are no good reasons to run Elspeth. She doesn't fill any gaps or weaknesses Stax has. She is total, complete and utter rubbish in Stax (yes, now I'm saying Elspeth is bad ).

Now, I'll move on to Ajani.

• Ajani's first ability complements the idea of Stax. It helps slow the opponent down, and does buy time. It's not the reason why we want Ajani, but it helps.
• Ajani's second ability is spot removal! Something we lack in Stax. That's nice, this guy shoots the Trygon Predator right out of the air, and wipes the smile of the smuck face of your opponent who thinks he has you by dropping a Predator. It also kills early Goyf and Bob. Not too shabby ey? Oh, there's more: on top of things, you also gain 3 life. Now that's a fun bonus to something that rocks.
• Ajani's third ability is a one sided Armageddon. Against some decks, you will see you can actually use it, as I've pointed out before, a match against MUC for instance, this is pretty useful. Once Ajani is on the table, this ability can't be countered. Bye-bye MUC. I'm sure it's useful in other match-ups as well.

I still can't really conclude Ajani is worth the trouble, but if you are going to run a Planeswalker, Ajani is the one to throw in your deck. I'm playing with two Plateaus (and two Ajani's) and I've never had a problem to produce the .

I'm going to go ahead and... ummm... disagree with you until this is more fully tested and someone provides (multiple) examples of how she doesn't help or the cat helps more. Your comments are very speculative and opinion-based.

I would encourage you to try and think about it from a different perspective. In my limited testing to this point, she has proved very useful.
[*] Elspeth is not just Mobilization 2.0. She's not just providing chump blockers, she's buying you time. When you draw and play her, your opponent is going to take their focus off you. When Elspeth cranks out a Soldier, it is to block for herself, not for you. A lot of times, this will buy you 3 or more turns to find something else to hammer your opponent with. I would think we could all agree that 3 turns is worth 2WW?
[*] Elspeth is not Angel. Why do you play Angel, though? I haven't played Angel or advocated for it in nearly a year. Angel is not a lock piece, she does not provide any resource denial, she doesn't provide a 'tax' ability. She is a choice for playing a win condition. She has lifelink which will bail you out on occassion, but I encourage you to look at the number of times she bailed you out vs the number of times it did not matter (I took her out and haven't suffered in any match-up because of it - that should tell you what my testing showed). Elspeth's second ability, though, will speed you to victory once you are in position to use it. 5/5 flying Factories are even a little bit faster than 4/5 Angels. You don't play Elspeth for this ability. You use this ability because you play Elspeth.
[*] 'The Threat', though, is what buys you 3 turns and allows you to pump Factories to end the game quickly. 'The Threat' is that you will pump out 5 soldiers and win on your next turn. Think of this like a nuclear weapon, you hope you never use it, but just by having it - you gain respect. Look at the game-states it potentially creates - Deed is invalidated, EE is invalidated, Krosan Grip is invalidated, Factories, Magus, and Soldier tokens never die, Armageddon is only devastating on one side of the board... Those are all pretty horrible situations for your opponent. He knows that which is why he will try to remove Elspeth before he goes after you.

If you simply think about Elspeth as a 'trick' to ramp a Smokestack, you are missing the boat. Elspeth is an extremely efficient card for a deck that absolutely loves cards that generate virtual advantages. I'm not going to say this is exactly what Stax needed or even recommend that anyone play it in a tournament, yet. But this definitely deserves more thorough testing.

Ajani, on the other hand, hasn't proved as efficient as I had once hoped. The big cat requires a new mana base for starters. That doesn't make it unplayable, but it's not necessarily positive.
[*] The first ability is good in the situations where you need it. Other times, it doesn't really effect the board (I'm looking at you Landstill). Unfortunately, Deed doesn't require tapping for activation.
[*] The second ability draws loyalty away from Ajani while removing troublesome creatures. But I don't have trouble with aggro and this ability can't hit manlands. For the most part, the creatures would've been attacking Ajani and not me anyways. Again, useful, but not as efficient in practice as on paper.
[*] To get to the final ability, you need to tap down for 4 turns while your opponent does nothing. If you are tapping lands and he isn't attacking, he doesn't have creatures and you probably would've won anyways. If you are tapping creatures and he isn't playing lands and developing his board, he's probably mana screwed or something and you probably would've won anyways. Yes, it's a powerful ability if you get it off (it can be Stifled or Needled don't forget), but it's probably not necessary to your winning (that's not to say it won't work in some match-ups - I haven't seen a lot of MUC lately).

These are choices that are not as clear as you make them sound, at least not without actual testing.

-FB...

[Skeggi]

Hey Fred, thanks for your time

Angel is not a lock piece

Actually, I think Angel is a lock piece. We've talked about the 'Angellock' before, and this concept has proven useful to me many times. It is however, completely besides the discussion of the Planeswalkers, which I think deserves our focus now.

[*] Elspeth is not just Mobilization 2.0. She's not just providing chump blockers, she's buying you time. When you draw and play her, your opponent is going to take their focus off you. When Elspeth cranks out a Soldier, it is to block for herself, not for you. A lot of times, this will buy you 3 or more turns to find something else to hammer your opponent with. I would think we could all agree that 3 turns is worth 2WW?

The fact that Elspeth takes the focus off you counts for every Planeswalker. They all scream "Kill me fast, because when I can cast my third ability, you're probably fucked."

Elspeth and Ajani both have the ability to hold off a creature attacking them; however, one can argue at which is most effective at it. I think Ajani is, because he can also stop flyers. Your arguement is that these cards buy us time, say three turns, to find a hammer. Aren't there any better cards that buy us more time? Oblivion Ring comes to mind (buys X turns for , seems better)...The fact that Planeswalkers draw focus and stall isn't enough. We need something else. If we compare Elspeth's second ability to Ajani's, we can easily conclude Ajani's second ability is much better and seems very useful. However, Elspeth's second ability still builds her loyalty. It seems much more likely that Elspeth's third ability will be used, but as you know, there are ways around indestructibility. I'm also saying it seems, because both Planeswalkers are more likely to die than to actually get that third ability through. The question is: what will they have accomplished before they die. I know here is the part only testing can point out; but I think Ajani will probably have shot down a few creatures, while Elspeth probably only has pooped out a couple of soldiers, which may or may not have recieved a boost. Ajani seems more viable because of all the things I've mentioned; and still I'm also doubting the usefulness of Ajani. But by all means, please test Elspeth, prove me wrong and make Stax incredibly broken, I would love for that to happen. I just think you shouldn't get your hopes up.

P.S. There is an occasional MUC in my meta. In fact, MUC won a pretty big tournament in Mol, Belgium approximately two months ago.

[Nihil Credo]

Why do you play Angel, though? I haven't played Angel or advocated for it in nearly a year. Angel is not a lock piece, she does not provide any resource denial, she doesn't provide a 'tax' ability.

Disagree here. Angel *is* synergistic with the rest of White Stax (and synergy is extremely important in a deck with no digging).

Every card in the deck other than Chalice and Crucible focuses on a single purpose: to make it impossibly expensive for your opponent to lower your life totals. Trinisphere, Ghostly Prison, and the Tabernacle trigger do it by asking your opponent to pay more mana for it. Smokestack, Wasteland and Armageddon do it by reducing the amount of mana they have available. And finally, Magus of the Tabernacle's 2/6 body, Kor Haven, Crucible/Mishra, and Exalted Angel's lifegain do it by nullifying a chunk of your opponent's attacking force (one attacker's worth for the first three, 4 power for the latter).


Back to the Alara Planeswalkers, I haven't tested Elspeth, but I've played some games with Ajani Vengeur, and he's... problematic. Namely, I run far too often into my opponent playing a new creature after Ajani hits the board, and killing him with that, while neither Ajani nor Ghostly Prison can do anything about it. If I can stop that creature from attacking Ajani it means I could already ignore it somehow (exception: Factory chump-blocking with no Crucible).
I think I'll try to fit Ajani in a sort of Stax spin-off. I'm looking at something like this:

24 lands incl. Tombs and Factories, but maybe not the full Cities
4 Mox Diamond
2 Chrome Mox?

4 Chalice
4 Crucible

4 Burning Wish?
3+1 Firespout

2+1 Boom/Bust
3+1 Armageddon
4 Humility

3 Ajani
3 Elspeth (SO wish this could be Garruk)

[sunshine]

Hey I'd like to pick up this deck, would anyone mind posting a current list?

[Skeggi]

Hey I'd like to pick up this deck, would anyone mind posting a current list?

Press the blue thing! Here! ^^^

Oh, and Nihil, here ya go