Just got back from a 40 person Legacy tourney at Monster Den in Minneapolis with the following build:
I went 4-2 with the following match ups.// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Underground Sea
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Island
// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [ON] Smother
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ON] Smother
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
Match 1 vers "Not quite survival" aka Fairy Thresh with squee and survival
1-2
I had no idea he was survival as I didnt see it all three games and i didn't see a single naught at all. Basicly almost looked like a mirror match.
Game 1. Opening had of 5 lands, a Force and Thoughseize so i mull to 6. He gets out goyf turn two with bob turn 3. I don't see a single deed or smother.
Game 2. I get out a turn 2 goyf. Smother 3 of his goyf (he just kept drawing them). I deed wipe late game and drop a stalker FTW
Game 3. Opening had of 6 spells (2 ponders and a brainstorm) with only a basic forest in hand so i mull to 6. Close long game. I end up loosing to the counter fairy countering my goyf with 2 metavaults on his side. He beats me down with the 1/1 flying.
Forgot what I sided in for this game but over all if it wasn't for the mulls I feel I would have had this.
Match 2 vrs "Dreadstill"
2-1
Game 1. Early goyf and he never resolves a standstill
Sided out 4 Deeds, 3 Ponder, 2 Thoughtseize. Put in 4 Needles, 4 Kgrips, and 1 smother.
Game 2. He pops 2 standstills and has 2 goyfs on the board. Can't keep up
Game 3. Turn on needle naming Top, goyf turn 2, Kgriped his EE on turn 3.
As long as you can stop that standstill from popping your golden.
Match 3 vrs "Land Still"
2-0
Game 1. Goyf beats with stifle / naught in hand waiting if i needed it. I stifled his fetch turn one and he never really recovered.
Out: 4 Thought Seize, 4 Deeds, 1 Ponder. In: 4 Needle, 4 Kgrip, 1 smother
Game 2. Got goyf out early. Dazed and forced 2 standstills. Raced him.
It seemed that once I got a goyf resolved they tended to stand on the board. I thought I would be seeing Swords out the wazzoo but didn't see it all day and no bounce either.
Match 4 vrs "Red Splash Thresh" Was running Fire/Ice. Red blasts sideboard, Magus of the moon. Looked pretty solid.
0-2
Game 1. He got double goyf out early and stifled my deed.
Out: 3 Deeds. In:Smother and 2 EEs
Game 2. He Stifled my fetch, played a magus of the moon. I floated 2 mana for the smother in my hand which he dazed. Game over.
Match 5 vrs "Goblins"
2-0
All i wrote down was that I sided out 4 Thoughtseizes, and 3 tomb stalkers and put in 4 needles "for vial", 2 EEs and 1 Smother. I vaguely remember having some goyfts out for the win and smashing turn 3 with naught.
Match 6 vrs "Team America"
2-0
Game 1: He sinkholed turn 2 but i get out naught on turn 3. Game over
Out: 3 Deeds. In: Smother, and 2 EEs
Summery:
Over all I did much better then the last time when I didn't have goyf. Never once did I find that the tombstalkers hindered my goyf in anyway. I tended to side out the deeds or thoughtseizes alot. I am thinking of main decking the 4th smother and only running 3 deeds. I sided out the thoughtseizes when I went against goblins etc because of the life loss but looking back that may have been a misplay.
I didn't stay for the top 8 as I had to get to work.
I saw some Belcher, aggro loam, burn, dredge/bridge, etc. Played against belcher like 5 times just to test the deck out. All I can say is mull until you get a thoughtseize(if your on the play) or Force of Will(if your on the draw). A couple of times I was on the play and dropped a turn 1 needed naming belcher and he would just empty the warrens on me instead.
12 threats looks pretty sexy. Latest completely untested list for your consideration:
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stifle
3 Vision Charm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
3 Snuff Out
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
SB: 4 Sinkhole
SB: 4/3 Diabolic Edict
SB: 3/4 Jace Beleren
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Snuff Out
Cutting one Charm is probably fine, but I'm loathe to cut more, because you really do want to be able to consistently keep your Dreadnoughts into play -- and being able to use that Stifle for other purposes is pretty cool also.
I've been wondering what to board against control decks, beyond Sinkholes and Grips where relevant, especially against control decks with lots of removal -- lots of inexpensive removal. You'd have a difficult time beating them with tempo, because even if you keep them to only one or two mana that's still enough for them to cast removal on your few threats, buy themselves a ton of time, and get back in the game. I came up with Jace Beleren. (The fact that I also put Jace Beleren into Landstill is, I must assure you, entirely incidental.) Once you've slowed them down with all the mana denial, if you're still unable to kill them with creatures, burying them in card advantage with a Planeswalker (which the vast majority of their removal doesn't affect, and none of it for less than three mana) and then killing them with creatures seems nearly as good.
I have to say I'm actually sceptical that 18 lands is enough, especially with Team America running 20, but everyone so far has reported that it is, so I'm not one to argue with the data. (Which I admit is partly because being able to add 4 Tarmogoyfs while keeping the rest of the spellbase almost entirely intact is really awesome, and I wouldn't like having to lose that.)
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
I run 18 lands and not one time did I have a problem with it. I think Team America runs 20 lands is because of the wastelands.
I hear what you are saying about vision charm and naught but once he hits the board he either wins you the game outright or is a huge lightning rod and it lets your goyfs gets though. The reason why I originally took them out is because late game they are just horrible and i found myself holding 2 or 3 in my hand with no naught in play or in sight.
I will say that Goyf was the all star in this tourney. It seemed that if I either dropped a turn 2 naught or goyf I won. It also seemed that every time I would side in smother so I think I am going to put that last smother in the main and only run 3 deeds main. Then for the extra SB slot add a 3rd EE. That way I can just swap the EEs for the deeds when I play against storm/token decks.
I tend to only run 11 threats with 4 goyfs, 4 naughts, and 3 tombstalkers because I have yet to be able to play 2 stalkers in a game or needed too. Then again you play vision charm and thus can library dump later in the game for that 2nd stalker. To each his own I guess (is it each or eat? I don't remember lol)
Does anyone have any thoughts on this build?
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
1 Island
1 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
I've always found Misdirection to be exceptionally useful while protecting large threats like Goyfs and Dreadnoughts, winning counter wars, or bouncing back Sinkholes and Hymns. I think that in this particular deck, it's generally more useful than Snuff Out.
Otherwise, it's a fairly typical build.
I'm also wondering, now that we're in the three colors territory, would a couple of City of Brass be the worst thing in the world to help me cut back on the budget?
For instance a manabase like this perhaps...
1 Island
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 City of Brass
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
CoB looks okay, as does Misdirection (of course depending on metagame and such). Running neither removal nor Thoughtseize looks dangerous though. I would run Wasteland but not basics. I don't know why everyone started cutting the Wastelands. Stifle is significantly worse without it.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
I think it was because we're now only running 18 lands.
Still I could see making room for 2 Wastelands if you think it's worth it.
What lands would you cut for it, the island and a CoB, or something else?
I would run 20 lands with 4 Wastelands before 18 lands without. 3C Threshold gets away with 18 lands including 4 Wastes, and our curve is similar, with the notable exception of Tombstalker. But people haven't reported trouble with the 4 Wastes in 18 lands package either, so I dunno. Add more if you feel it's necessary, certainly, but start with 4 Wastes in there and then add more colored lands rather than the other way around.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
I actually play 19 lands with 4 Wasteland. I started with 18 lands with 3 Wastlands, but just changed it to 19, right before a Tournament and I liked that alot.Originally Posted by Illissius
Your list looks quite fun Illusius. But there is far to much land-hate here to play such a manabase. I'm testing an UB version with Sinkhole, but the results haven't been as good as with my UBg list, without Sinkhole.
Btw, I will complete the primer by Friday btw.
BB
When it comes to the misdirections sure they are nice but they are so hard to run along side FoW especially in a deck that burns though cards so fast. I think if anything they are made more for that type of sit back and wait deck like mono blue control.
Gonna try the wastelands on MWS and see what I get.
Edit: Now granted ive only played against 4 different decks but so far it was Belcher combo, Goblins, Red/Green Price of Progess, and mono blue. No joke. Adding in those wastelands were not a good idea in any of those match ups. It wouldn't be that bad if I could side them out for something else but I refuse to assign 4 cards in my SB for lands. Are they good against land still, thresh etc? Sure but they are not good enough to have them in main unless your deck revolves around it with Sinkholes and Stifles(without having to use them on Naught)
Ill do some more testing but so far it isnt looking good. On a plus side I only had to mulligan one time when I only had a wasteland in my hand and no more land.
Last edited by Frank The Tank; 01-05-2009 at 11:04 PM.
I have a few questions about this deck, this may sound completely uneducated because I haven't read this thread fully... But oh well.
What makes this better then Team America? Other then the fact that Tarmogoyf and Stalker work against each other and Dreadnought and Tombstalker have better synergies together.
Also, what makes Dreadnought a better early game drop then Tarmogoyf? I understand that he is a 12/12 Trample for the cost of 2 or 3 mana depending on which Stifle effect you use, Trickbind or Stifle. But you have to have both cards in hand in order to use him. Where as Tarmogoyf you can play from your hand for a consistent 2 mana. Also, if your Stifle effect is countered you loose 2 cards in your hand... It just seems worse to me.
The last thing that I wanted to mention was that I never saw in any of the decklists where any ways to dig up Dreadnought other then dig up a Stifle unless either of them are in hand.. Where as with Goyf again, you can just drop it versus waiting for another card. I understand that Stifle is great on it's own as well but when you get your Dreadnought you won't have a way to use it.
Anyway, those are my questions.. Hopefully I get a response. Thanks in advance :)
Who cares if she was dead, we did her anyway...
I think you mean two color Thresh. None of the 3c Thresh lists I've seen play Wasteland. Mind pointing me to the one you're referring to.
Yep, I too found UBg without Sinkhole to perform much better than UB without Goyf. I'm not sold on the whole Wasteland + Sinkhole strategy here. It would be nice if we could squeeze in 4 Wasteland, 4 Sinkhole, 4 Stifle along with the 12 threat package, and maybe even Trickbinds in place of Vision Charm to seal the mana denial strategy, but I just don't think it's doable or worthwhile. The deck would be giving up too much.
I guess two Wasteland against random Maze of Ith's and Tabernacles is reasonable.
But there is simply no reason to force yourself to squeze in more than 2 Wastelands into this deck if you're not playing Sinkhole. Threshold plays 3 colors like us, it plays 18 land and lots of cantrips, and it doesn't play Wasteland. And this deck's manabase has to work harder than Thresh's because it has to support BB for Tombstalker even though the deck is primarily blue. So I don't how or why we expect to be squeezing in Wastelands when Thresh doesn't.
The problem with 4 Wastelands in a build with 18-19 land is, you still need to support three colors, along with Daze, Snuff Out, and all without getting color screwed by a single Wasteland.
Everybody and their mother is playing Wastelands. So if you're playing only two green sources, both wastable, and absolutely no nonbasics, you're just asking to get color screwed by an opponent's Wasteland.
Anyways, I would like to see more of your manabases because I think mine could be improved upon.
Frank the Tank:
I really liked the 4 Wastelands in my build. It punishes most aggro-control decks( Thresh and Slivers) and it's your weapon to win the control matchups. With Stifle it can randomly win games. Even against TES it can do something stopping there few initial manasources( allthough it isn't that strong). Against multicolored decks it is nice to waste the color that plays the most removal before casting the Dreadnought. I would test it in your own meta though, if Wasteland is weak, cut it; It's a metagame call.
Superbeam:
The advantages of Dreadnought are quite clear. First of all it wins the game. Goyf Stalls are quite problematic for Team America, forced to counter the Tarmogoyf or kill it. This deck just trample over it and can use it's counterspells to stop the removal. Second it wins the game fast Goyf can take some time to grow big enough to really put up a clock. Dreadnought beats 24 damage in 2 turns.
Second it is a metagame choice. In a very developed meta Team America is a very strong choice. But in my meta Team America doesn't work that well, because there are quite some decks wich can ignore the mana-denial( lots basics few fetches). A friend of mine played Team America, but lost horribly in Tournaments.
Captain Hammer:
Please do your homework before posting.
A) There are tons of Thresh decks that run Wasteland, look at Thrash or Ubg Tempothresh. And it are the decks with Stifles.
B) Vision Charm is manadenial. I won games by changing Plains to something else so my opponent couldn't cast Oblivion Ring and Wrath of God or changing Mountains to Islands to win a turn against Goblins.
C) You only play 3 green MD spells, why would you need more green sources. You can play around Wasteland you know. And your posting a list without Wastelands but with even less basics than Klaus or me.
BB
The reason you want Wasteland, again, is to make Stifle good. With both, you sometimes get the draws where you completely screw your opponent out of mana and just beat them down (even with 'only' a Tarmogoyf). Without this potential, if Stifle is only random utility when it's not comboing a Dreadnought, it's a lot weaker.
For example.
The two decks are extremely similar. They are at most two cards apart, many times only one, and occasionally that one card is in the sideboard. Which is better depends on the metagame -- basically, on whether Dreadnought is good in it.
If you'll notice, many of the recent lists are running both Dreadnought and Tarmogoyf. The reason Dreadnought is good, when it's good, is that against some decks (such as Goyf Sligh, Goblins, and Aggro Loam), if you get a turn two Dreadnought, you pretty much win the game; you might have to deal with one removal spell, if that. Tarmogoyf doesn't do this. Against other decks, Dreadnought is still dangerous, because they have a maximum of two turns to find and resolve an answer to it, which can sometimes be difficult, when you're actively trying to stop them, even if the deck does run multiple answers. In other words, you can't keep Dreadnought on the board forever, but two turns is sometimes doable. (Tarmogoyf can, however, be better against these decks, because it never does a two-for-one on you even if you don't manage to protect it. But again, run both. Or run Team America if Dreadnought is a liability against enough of the metagame to make it bad.)Also, what makes Dreadnought a better early game drop then Tarmogoyf? I understand that he is a 12/12 Trample for the cost of 2 or 3 mana depending on which Stifle effect you use, Trickbind or Stifle. But you have to have both cards in hand in order to use him. Where as Tarmogoyf you can play from your hand for a consistent 2 mana. Also, if your Stifle effect is countered you loose 2 cards in your hand... It just seems worse to me.
This is why the deck runs 7-8 ways to combo with Dreadnought. Because Dreadnought is a whole fucking lot better when it's a 12/12 on the board than when it's a dead card in your hand. 7-8 plus Brainstorm and Stifle is enough find one of them reasonably consistently when you need it. (While if you don't have the Dreadnought, Stifle denies their mana, and Vision Charm can also power out a Tombstalker, or pseudo-Chant them for a turn at the worst, and both of them pitch to Force. And furthermore you have Brainstorms and fetchlands.)The last thing that I wanted to mention was that I never saw in any of the decklists where any ways to dig up Dreadnought other then dig up a Stifle unless either of them are in hand.. Where as with Goyf again, you can just drop it versus waiting for another card. I understand that Stifle is great on it's own as well but when you get your Dreadnought you won't have a way to use it.
They are good first questions, so I'm glad to answer them.Anyway, those are my questions.. Hopefully I get a response. Thanks in advance :)
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
Thanks for the answers, I'd be more then willing to give the deck a try in some upcoming tournaments. I'll be sure to let everyone know how it works out.
Who cares if she was dead, we did her anyway...
Just wanted to post the build that I'm playing now...
// Lands
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [UN] Underground Sea
2 [UN] Tropical Island
1 [UN] Bayou
1 [ON] Island
// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [VI] Vision Charm
3 [MM] Snuff Out
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MM] Snuff Out
SB: 2 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
One way that you know this is a solid build is by how similar it is to Team America...
If you want to build Team American all you have to do is...
-1 [ON] Island
-3 [VI] Vision Charm
-4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
+4 [TMP] Wasteland
+4 [UN] Sinkhole
I'm even considering just playing the exact same manabase as Team America (Wastelands and all) so the only difference between the two decks is Sinkhole vs. Dreadnought+Vision Charm.
Basically, you're opting to forego the land destruction route to play an additional kickass threat, a 12/12 trampler.
Last edited by Captain Hammer; 01-16-2009 at 05:54 PM.
For Captain Hammer (BTW i followed your link and Dr. Horriable was funny as hell, plus NPH and Nathan Fillion are the shit)
I run 3 Tombstalkers for late game as i never ever get 2 out and never get them out early. I cut vision charms because they were usually dead draws or worthless late game. And I got smothers in over snuff outs for Bobs as he was the person I was having the most trouble with plus the 4 extra damage really stacks up with 8 fetch lands, 4 FoWs and 4 Thoughtseizes. As for deed they are great board sweepers.
Granted its all just a matter of personal taste when it comes down to it.
As a side note if removal is really that bad why not just toss in a single Scrubland and Tundra and toss in swords and be done with it? Most people run 8 fetches so it shouldn't be that big of a burden
Thanks.
How can you consistently play Dreadnought if you don't play any Stifles or Trickbinds? I would end up with them dead in my hand a lot if I tried to do that. Vision Charm is not a bad card. You can colorscrew a player and timewalk them, you can protect your Dreadnought by phasing it out, and obviously, you can always pitch it to FoW or shuffle it away with Brainstorm. Stifle always has plenty of uses. I primarily rely on Vision Charm to combo with and protect Dreadnought, and use Stifle to take out fetchlands.
You do have a point about Tombstalker. The deck only plays 18 lands and this deck doesn't play Ritual so it makes multiple Tombstalkers slightly harder to cast. But still, I think 4 Tombstalker are justified in part because the card is that broken, and more importantly, you have Brainstorms to put back and shuffle away additional Tombstalkers. Also playing 2 Tombstalkers over the course of a game is sometimes doable. The fetchlands help you fill up your yard quickly. Like I said, I'm trying out a manabase identical to Team America, that decks plays 4 Tombstalkers as well and does just fine.
I honestly love Snuff Out and would never play Smother or splash for StP over it. What does Smother kill that Snuff Out doesn't? Tombstalker and Mystic Enforcer are both higher than 3cc. I really can't think of any tier one legacy decks that play Confidant. Plus, because Snuff Out is free, you can play it a turn earlier, and save yourself from an attack which is usually worth more than 4 life. StP is definately not worth splashing for. It costs mana, you will get colorscrewed out of white, and StPing their Dreadnought will give them three extra turns to live, which is unacceptable. I would rather lose 4 life than have to spend a mana and give my opponent anywhere between 5-12 life.
Here's my attempt to make this deck a Team America clone...
1 Island
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
2 Vision Charm
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
2 Snuff Out
Last edited by Captain Hammer; 01-16-2009 at 10:46 PM.
I love How I Met Your Mother. NPH is great in that and yes I am a huge firefly fan.
I suppose I could try 4 snuff outs instead of smothers at least but I am hesitant to cut deed because they are a beast late game. I know they are slow and mana intensive but early game you should be tossing out beats like goyf and naught. There have been many times when wiping the board has saved my ass.
Maybe I am playing the deck wrong but i mostly smash face with tombstalker and goyf and if I can resolve naught. I find myself sometimes tossing out a naught and sacking it to itself just so my goyf can get +2 +2.
Hi,
I've been playing TA,and although its a very good deck there's one card that kills it:Relic of Progenitus.
In my metagame many pple play it in the sideboard(instead of crypt)or even MB if they play trinket mage.
That's why I decided to go Dreadstalker route and add Phyrexian Dreadnought.
It also takes care of rogue decks(mono-colored decks) or decks where the LD-gameplan isnt effective in general.
This is my newest decklist, it is UB and very solid.
It only plays 18 lands ,but it can afford it because it doesnt play green.
It has the same idea as TA,but plays Dreadnought instead of Goyf.
4x Stifle
4x Ponder
3x Thoughtseize
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Brainstorm
3x Vision Charm
4x Sinkhole
4x Daze
4x Snuff Out
4x Force of Will
4x Tombstalker
4x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
3x Flooded Strand
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Swamp
Any ideas ,comments ?
@rancor: My list is super similar. What's sad is I actually made the deck without referring to this thread at all and just found that damn, Dread Stalker's already a deck in progress, and is doing well!
Anyway, here's the list that I came up with without referencing to the thread and it's done super well. My main motivation for the list was analyzing TA and realizing that Goyf is one of the strongest beaters, but he's probably the most hated beater in Legacy i.e. he doesn't stick long. I referred to Eva Green and TA and realized the same weaknesses. The threats in Eva are all chumped but is accounted for by disruption to protect their threats. TA uses Mana denial to protect its threat, and to be honest, Tombstalker is the only real threat in the deck since Goyf just faces Goyf.
One of the reasons why I didn't like TA that much was that the Stifles are solely for the purpose of denying mana or activation. And being a Goyf-hater, I thought that playing green solely for Goyf MD was a little retarded. So I pondered about what's the next biggest creature and voila, Dreadnought, which fits perfectly into the Stifle plan.
My build is similar to TA and although I know people dislike the Wasteland + Sinkhole + Stifle, I feel that it's important in today's meta, and the mana denial is a form of protection for your threats. Having denied them of mana, you will not have to worry about Vindicates, Swords (if you denied the right mana), etc and all you have left is to protect via FOW and Thoughtseizes.
With regards to Snuff Out. It's a card that I want to see all the time, but in more testing, I realize it's not that great in DS than in TA, since your threats and clocks are much faster. I took them out and played MD Spell Snares, which goes great with the mana-denial package. The list is pretty much a hybridized suite of Tempo Thresh and TA, with the biggest UNDERCOSTED EVASIVE creatures in Legacy:
Lands:
4x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
3x Flooded Strand
2x Swamp
1x Island
Cantrips
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
Mana-denial package//Dreadnought enablers:
4x Sinkhole
4x Stifle
3x Vision Charm
Tempo counters/disruption
4x Thoughtseize
4x Daze
3x Spell Snare
4x Force of Will
Threats:
4x Tombstalker
4x Dreadnought
3 Spell Snares over Snuff outs have been great against goyf, Standstills, Chalice@2, Piledrivers, Burning Wish. Snuff out is important but if you play a controllish, mana denying role for turns 1-3, you can safely play the threats. Snuff out was great for me yesterday even as Land destruction against Factories, together with all the Stifles and Sinkholes. I played against Dreadstill and played with the philosophy: Just land a Tombstalker safely in play. Dreadstill can do NOTHING about Tombstalker. It doesn't die to EE.
I'm not too sure if Spell Snare > Snuff out but I think it's meta dependent. Both fit the role on playing a tight deck, gaining tempo, but I like Spell Snare since you deny them of mana, and when they drop a 2cc spell, you counter it, and following up with a Tombstalker. The strength of this deck over Dreadstill is that the creature base is stronger and we have 7-8 ways of landing a Dreadnought in play. Dreadstill has the problem of Stifling opponent's waste and sitting with a dead Nought in hand. DS can afford to stifle wastes/fetches and wait on Vision Charms to bring Nought in.
I'm loving this deck! :D
Last edited by GGoober; 01-17-2009 at 04:37 PM.
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