You're lucky no one plays ichorid! ^^ I've briefly considered the decks i've to face sunday and prefer to bring my dear landstill. However, this the deck is bent towards an interesting direction, so I'll keep up from time to time. Things I don't understand of your list.
-3 hierarch? I believe mana acceleration is too good, imho cut a land and add another one of this guy. It somehow sucks in multiple, but if you play it you absolutely want one in your opening hand, otherwise it's useless if it begins to help you in mid game. If you run hierarch, i think your first turn play would be him, period. And daze aterwards. Since you want to put early pressure, early hierarch is what you want. Playing 3 in no-sense, pardon me. This guy is a 4-of or nothing, just because you need to cast it t1 just like your beloved mongoose. Mid game it shines for his exalted ability, but if you wanted only that you'd have played another pridemage and maybe dauntless escort.
- coatl: isn't monk that better? i see it growing larger only under the good wing of counterbalance, as a topdeck he' good only if you have an exalted selkie attacking, which could mean that with his drawings you'd have better drew counters and removals than a creature that has to start it all over. However, I'm personally not a fan of it, but I tested it very briefly, so it's just a question to know how you felle about it. Maybe those 3 slots are better spent on removals or stuff (jitte, path to exile, oblivion ring).
-sb: how can only 2x MM help against anything...
I run to the station, bye!
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
I really like your take on my list sasa. I would cut the plains for a Hierarch but otherwise it looks about perfect. Why no Grips in the SB? I would play them over Hydroblast. Also RMW>Jitte.
I don't see why Hierarch belongs in this deck. It'snefficient, this deck doesn't need the mana, and there's better things to win Goyf fights with.
Coatl is a great creature, and anyone can see why it's good here. There are better ways to break it, as seen in the Coatl Loam thread (New & Developing Decks), but it's plenty good enough to just have Top, Brainstorm, and Ponder to support it. It's also a blue card to pitch to FoW.
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lorescale Coatl
2 Qasali Pridemage/Trygon Predator
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare/Stifle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Krosan Grip
Looks a bit like more tempo-oriented versions of thresh, but packs CounterTop.
Well, a big reason for the Hierarch is that it goes great with Selkie
I agree on both those points and like the list by the way. Its very similar to mine, but I included 2 jenera and she is a house as well, but no one else seems to be using her for some reason. I also include 2 krosan MD now too. Creepy similar. But I have been very happy with it. Its a great deck. Ultimately I went with trygon predator over pridemage as good as mage is. Trygon has flying and a reusable effect, teamed with krosan grip you can really clean up the board. People saying Coatl is bad aren't playing with enough cantrips. Brainstorm and even the top make it pretty ginormous in size. Like eating goyfs for lunch size.
DISCLAIMER:
Even though we all hate one-liners and decklists without explanation, I kindly ask the mods to not remove this post. In the future I will use this posty as a reference, which will save us many needless decklist in my following replies.
Thanks.
My current decklist:
Coatl Gro:
Counties:
2 [ON] Island (3)
1 [IN] Forest (1)
3 [B] Tropical Island
3 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [IN] Plains (1)
Inhabitants:
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
3 [ARB] Lorescale Coatl
Folklore:
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
Neighbourhood:
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
Last edited by Aleksandr; 05-09-2009 at 09:04 AM.
Was this even a real Skeggi's hero?Lol. You're my hero.
Friday Night's Legacy
location: Cerny Rytir gaming club
attendance: 12 people (four turns of Swiss)
metagame:
Ankh Burn
Coatl Gro (yours sincere)
Eva Pernicious
Elves!
Goblins Rb
Goblins Rw
MBA
Meat Hooks
ZOO
43 Lands
???
???
prizes: (1st-2nd-3rd-random dude) Taiga-Stomping Ground-???-??? (one been Isochron Scepter)
list: list
Report:
R1, Matej, MBA
I have never seen the guy before, or better said - I have a feeling that we already met on some tournament and that he piloted low-budget IGGy Pop, but he says otherwise.. so lets see what happens.
G1:
He started with some Carrotphage serious action that puts me down to 13 or 12 lf, until I stabilize on CB/Top. Snuff Out eats my Goyf, as I am left with no answers (see no 4 mana drop in decklist), otoh nice BS into top=Coatl counterbalances his Phyrexian Arena. End result: Goyf > opponent, but I win with three life left.. and I also nearly made a fatal mistake during announcement of attackers - if only Matej would be a little bit stricter, I would lose.
sideboard:
out: Dazes, Cold-Eyed Selkies, Lorescale Coatls and some crap
in: Meddling Mages, Jittes, EEs, Needles, Predators (?), RWMs (???)
G2:
I've build a solid exalted army of four men (Hierarch, Pridemage, Goyf and Predator) that is capable of some pressure, but my top=/=when Matej tried Perish. So I basically overextend into one-sided Wrath; my fault, I should have known; otoh I have not played against Perish/Nature's Ruin for ages, so let it be my excuse..
I see some +2 change in opponents life total, so this can be swordsed Hypno, but I still got nothing onboard and a Dauthi Slayer is slowly eating my lf points. I summon some being (I don't remember which one), but Matej immediately snuffs it out; I can also remember some Diabetic Edible, but I'm not sure what it eat (be it creature or countermagic.)
I proceed to fail in drawing a creature for several turns, but at least I am somehow hiden behind the CB/Top wall. On two life points I need to StP the Slayer and then I draw Meddling Mage and things finally turn into my favor. I put MM into play naming Snuff Out, lately I get Jitte and another Mage (@ Smother)... whatever occures first...
On my Top I have another Swords and double Needle, so I am save even if Matej gets the Shade. Otoh I cannot stop his Arena from resolving - you already know my top three, so now you know that I had no FoW in my hand.
Time is called, but with my double MM and Jitte online I defeat Matej in the two turns I had left: his lf went 11-3-2
I apologised for my "cheating" with attackers during the G1. Matej was ok with it, he even said that on a tournament like this he has no need to be rules-geek. Thx a lot man, you're nice guy and solid opponent! Both our games were very thrilling and even though I had the upper hand due to my CB lock, he was never really out of game and was always this close from winning.
MVP: Counterbalance, Jitte
Highlights: Perish, MM aggro
R2, Jan, Goblins Rb
Even though his "Venom: Black Metal" T-shirt and rough tatoos would imply otherwise, Jan is a pleasant guy and I am glad that he had returned to mtg after some pause.
Playing against hordes is not easy for Thresh, namely the Vial Goblins are bit hard for my liking, but we'll see..
G1:
In fact, I don't remember the game exactly, but I can recall that Jan was stuck on few lands, namely Port and Waste. I build my manabase solely of Hierarchs, because his first Wasteland screwed my Trop.
Then Jan finally drew the Mountain and played Lackey, but I StPed him EOT. In response he Incinerates my Hierarch - but I informed him that he has no red mana for it, so Jan takes it back a bit confused. (It was the first time he noticed that he needs a red mana to cycle the Incinerator.. we both loled, that mtg pause he made was maybe a bit longer...)
With another exalted guy out (Pridemage) and some lands I can start the pressure - mainly because my Goyf was 4/5, so bashing for seven per turn forced Jan to chump. With the few red mana he had open, he was unable to play correctly and lately he succumbed to Goyf. (At the end I had 16 life.. so you can see how terribly he was screwed.)
sideboard:
out: Dazes, Cold-Eyed Selkies, Lorescale Coatls, 2x CB (other two remained in to stop Auntie's shenanigans with Warren Weirding)
in: RWMs, Jittes, EEs, Needles, Predators, H-Blast
G2:
This game was not that heavily in my favor, but still the Exalted Goyf Action (TM) was strong enough to make me win.
After some initial debate on state based effects (ok, I said that Jan was out of game for some time, so he did not know how exactly the Goyf-Incinerator interaction works) I have lost my Goyf, but still was in better shape than my opponent. I EEed his Vial and on my thirteen life I stabilised with Goyf+Jitte and enough mana to reequip the sword from tapped Goyf to (potential) blockers.
Goyf ate and Jitte slaughtered a horid ammount of chumpblockers, but after all that carnage Jan was finally left with no creatures (double Ringleader into nothing was also helpful to my casue..), so few minutes before the time limit I finished him; my notes on his life total look like 22, 15, 10, where the log ends...
MVP: Goyf
R3, Jan, Ankh Burn
Another not quite perfect match and I started to regret that I have maindecked the Selkies... Otoh with some CB/Top luck and RWMs and Jittes from board it could be better.
G1:
I won on the backs of CB lock, if I remember it well. Playing with higher curve than normal Thresh builds was decisive - I remember to stop at least one Rift Bolt and Flamebreak by revealing a Selkie from the top. Nonetheless it was their only function in this match, I did not even waste my time and resources with summoning them - mere 1/1 for three mana is shitty against Red.dec.
Ankh was a bit annoying, too, namely in conjuction with Price of Progress. (Either you put as few lands as possible to play, but in such a case you need many non-basics; or you can dodge PoP with basics, but this leads to enourmous fetching, which is a bit hurtful under Ankh.) But with no Fireblasts and/or Flame Rifts he was unable to finish me fast enough..
14-8-5-2. Goyf is retarded.
sideboard:
out: Dazes, Cold-Eyed Selkies, Lorescale Coatls,
in: RWMs, Jittes, H-Blast, MMs, Predators
G2:
I feared Sulfuric Vortex (or any other permanent hate: e.g. Moon effect), not to mention that Ankhs alone were enough to take the Predators from side.
In this game I droped to twelve lf very fast. Then the opponent tapped out for Browbeat with two cards left, so I decided to drop even further. (IDK, maybe it would be wiser to let the BB resolve, because without mana he wasn't dangerous.. but BB could bring him a fourth Mountain and with some support, one or two Fireblasts could easily finish me, as I lacked FoW.)
We both played some crap, than I tried the Mage, but he was Pyroed. At least I had CB/Top out (at least I think it.. there is no other way how could I survive on four life..) and then I finally get some interesting cards: Goyf and Jitte. I attacked, returned some life in case my opponents draws either a double Sudden Shock (why not?), or some combination of burn spells that I could not handle with a CB. (Why I just did not wait for them? Beacause with all those Forks, Bolts, Fireblasts and Smashes to Smitherness played in response, he can effortlessly outplay me..)
15-10-4. Yeah, Goyf is retarded.
MVP: Goyf, Jitte
Highlights: counterbalancing Flamebreak via BS into top=Selkie.
R4, humppa, ZOO
Here I am again, in the Hall of the Mighty Red Wizards, trying to make some impress with my 1/1 merfolks for three mana.. Lol, I was soo wrong with my metagaming... Not a single control deck, not to mention anything blue except the Slivers.. I got a quick test for you, kids: What do you think - how I SBed for this matchup? (Answers below.)
G1:
Kird Ape, Nacatl + suspend Rift Bolt put me under extreme pressure, while I was only trying to achieve CB lock. On six life I was cast out with some burn spells, never played anything relevant. (Maybe I should have sworded the Nacatl, but it was my only removal so I saved it for a Goyf.. that never appeared. With three/six hit points more it would a bit be easier to stabilise.. but otoh humppa's deck offers so much burn that I cannot handle all of it.)
sideboard:
out: Daze, Cold-Eyed Selkies, Lorescale Coatls,
in: RWMs, Jittes, H-Blast, MMs
G2:
Once again a fast and brutal game. Even though I get my StPs and CB fast, it was not enough. CB was shot down with Pyroblast, double Lavaromancer made combat math much harder (and also prevented me from playing my dudes, at least until he emptied his GY..)
I played Goyf, but without Jitte he wasn't fast enough, so when I got to a burn range (which means: at 10 life), humppa finished me.
Nice games; especially preboard heavily in humppa's favor, but still - nice games. Also - finally some fast action: previous matches went nearly to time limit, R1 even ended in extra time...
MVP: Goyf, but he had not enough time...
Results:
There were four ppl with nine points, me been the best of them. So I ended second with a Stomping Ground. Now I have my playset finished, so I can build Extended 5c control.. or rather pass it to the dealer that sells my cards...
Nice tournament, nice deck.
Recollections on revolution in Thresh
IDK. We've played a few games later in the pub. Against Elf combo (not that this deck is prevalent) it fares terribly, against Merfolk it went 2:4 or something like that, but don't forget that Merfolks have their landwalk Lords and Vials that really make the match harder.
But that's not the whole problem with the deck.
First: Even though I really appreciate the exalted mechanic and even though the other utilities of the creatures (be it built-in disenchant or mana for SDT manipulations), I am still really unsure of the guys. They are not that aggressive (namely Hierarchs
Second: All those exalted and merfolk creatures added result in less slots for utility/removal (be it Ring, Grip, EE, Needle, Path of Exile) and/or great finisher - read: Mystic Enforcer. (Ok, he is replaced with Coatl that can grow even bigger, but contrary to Enforcer, the snake is bad when we side out Selkies - and I sideboard them fair often, see the report -, not to mention his evasion:none.) All this makes the deck a bit toothless, namely in face of burn/land hordes, while (potentially) improving our control MU that we anyway win with Goyf and proper CB usage.
Third: Mongoose. I got mixed feelings about that creature. I lack it for Lackeys, it also laughs at Shackles/Swords, otoh as a mere 1/1 (or 3/3 at turn10) it is not that gamebreaking. With exalted mechanic it could make some impress, but then again - what to cut?
Fourth: The-Great-Snake-That-Eats-Goyf-For-Breakfast. Hmpfff... I started it in some of the previous paragraphs. This card has all the faults of Dryad, but one must tell that it is bit easier to make it grow - we have draw phase, SDT... and Brainstorm adds not one, but three counters. With a Selkie (and a few exalted guys out) it can grow quickly to absurd sizes, otoh in such a case it stands at home. (Either that or we lose the exalted triggers.) With multiple Selkies in play it can join the attack, of course, but in both cases the snake is just a win more card because if we draw two to four card per turn, we are about to win Coatl or not. And maybe, maybe it is even a LOSE more card, because instead of drawing utility/removal, we draw additional crappy exalted creatures and another redundant Coatls.
Fifth: Relative troubles with mass removal. I'm not even talking about Deed or WoG - just a Pyroclasm and/or timely EE can ruin our day. The deck as it stands has many synergies between creatures (or better yet: only two or three, but very strong and linked ones), so when the things go well, it is CA-machine with extremely big monsters. But it suffers of the "slivers syndrome" heavily - remove the guys (that are strong in their horde) and all fails. You can rebuild the army from topdecks, yes you can, but I hope that everyone sees the difference between "rebuilding army" and "tearing the Goyf/Enforcer from the top, on the next turn taping it FTW".
I could follow this paragraphs for ever, but I think that you already have the picture.
Right now I just cannot decide which route to chose. I like the massive CA produced by Selkies, I like how it in return feeds my finishers and I like how the deck is even less dependant on the grave. But the worse topdecks, far less utility cards, dependance on the built-in synergies rather than on brutal power.. and many, many more factors.. IDK. I will echo myself, but right now I cannot decide which direction is the best.
Discuss.
Last edited by Aleksandr; 05-09-2009 at 10:19 AM.
Was this even a real Skeggi's hero?Lol. You're my hero
Yeah, I'm liking Trygon as well. Coatl is a house, it's not as good as it is in the Loam deck but it's still sick.I agree on both those points and like the list by the way. Its very similar to mine, but I included 2 jenera and she is a house as well, but no one else seems to be using her for some reason. I also include 2 krosan MD now too. Creepy similar. But I have been very happy with it. Its a great deck. Ultimately I went with trygon predator over pridemage as good as mage is. Trygon has flying and a reusable effect, teamed with krosan grip you can really clean up the board. People saying Coatl is bad aren't playing with enough cantrips. Brainstorm and even the top make it pretty ginormous in size. Like eating goyfs for lunch size.
Still working on building the actual deck. Started assembling Goyfs for extended; may play the Ext rock deck in Legacy if I can loan some Vindicates.
Not to mention those creatures susceptibility to mass removal like pyroclasm. I have found the same thing, which is why its best to pack just removal and finishers. Trygon predator is decent because it flys overhead which is often relevant and is also removal himself, along with the fact that its potential CA especially against something like stax. I think the guildmage is good too because of the removal/beater aspect but I'm not sold its better then trygon. I have found that usauly the first few turns are spent dazing, controlling and cantriping into lands. So I found that having a creature priced at 3 isn't bad at all. Its OK to have many creatures in the 3 slot. Cold-Eyed Selkie is not even half the beater jenara is by himself. The snake doesn't really need all this extra stuff to function, I think it works well in the typical thresh build. packing 4 tops 4 ponder and 4 brainstorm should be enough to get him fat.
Has anyone tinkered around with Predict in conjunction with Lorescale Coatl? Coatl's made me pick up this deck, and I've started tinkering around with lists for a bit. Came up with the following.
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lorescale Coatl
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Trygon Predator
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Predict
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
I might swap a Predict for the last Ponder (I find the shuffle highly relevant, plus cheap draw for Coatl and an easy early play with a land light hand), and a Tundra for an additional Pridemage (just because I really like him and Trygon together), and 19 land might be a little much anyway. Also, I'd usually like the extra fetch over a Trop (again, I like to shuffle).
Other than that, It's basically one of the builds I've been testing.
I've really been liking builds with Rhox War Monk, Noble Hierarch, Pridemage, and Trygon, though.
I'll have to try out the land configuration. I'll probably go to Heath 4 at some point. I like the stability of extra lands with mana being spent for Top activations though.
I'm not a huge fan of Noble Hierarch. I think he's weak and don't think he does enough here. My logic is pretty much that if Nimble Mongoose is struggling to do enough, Hierarch certainly doesn't.
How funny, I was actually thinking the same thing. This is what I would like to test:
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Lorescale Coatl
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Predict
3 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Bant Charm
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
I originally wanted to use Shackles in place of Charm, but the low land count made that a no-go. I considered running PtE for additional removal, but I wanted to diversify my curve a bit for CB. In the end, I went with Charm because it's extra creature removal that can do other useful things as well. Could potentially be Krosan Grips, but I really don't like running those main.
True, that Hierarch is one of the weaker slots in many games, and obviously you could never directly replace Mongoose with Hierarch as the later is obviously not as aggressive and even less defensive, but I'd say she is definitely build specific.
For instance, with the the rise of Counterbalance and Spell Snare, 3cc has gotten a lot stronger, specifically Trygon and War Monk (who I think really helps out Thresh's weaker matchups. I mean, unblocked 6 point life swing, and even a 3 point one when blocked or blocking, and can't be bolted.). At the same time, many decks that run those cards run LD in the form of Wasteland and Stifle, which can really hamper Thresh in the early game. The way I see it, Hierarch powers out 3cc quicker and with less reliance on having lands in play, powers out CB/Pridemage on turn 2 with Daze inevitability, makes War Monk and Trygon extra deadly with Exalted (Pridemage and the singleton Rafiq I've been testing make it even funnier), and at the very least will just chump, hopefully having provided at least 1 useful mana in its turns alive.
Not having shroud is a non-issue, as the deck packs more threats and if Hierarch eats some removal so Goyf/War Monk don't have to, it's all good with me. The only problem I've found has been the 0/1 on defense against relevant x/1 creatures (Bob, Lackey, others).
Really, though, I'm still testing. This is just what I've noticed so far.
Man, this isn't a threshold thread anymore. People are writing about another deck with creatures that I never see in a top 8.
Sorry, but i can't even read this post anymore.
Could someone make other thread for this deck?
If i wrote bullshit, sorry.
But i feel this.
You are right, but it doesn't really matter. I don't think nimble mongoose will see significant play in this deck again. So when you see UGw threshold, just think Bant Control and get on with your life.
@ Charlatan
Some of those creatures just came out, so you haven't had as much time to see them top 8. It seems quite likely that Qasali and Coatl will be found in at least some future top 8 lists.
You may not like some of the lists or evolutions of the deck, but I would not go so far as to say these decks aren't Threshold.
This archetype has ceased to be reliant upon the "threshold" mechanic for a long time. That doesn't mean the mechanic is unused, but it isn't the core of the deck and it isn't required anymore to have a viable build. The name 'Threshold' is just pointing towards a historical role and method of deckbuilding for an archetype that has evolved over time (some call it Gro, some Fish, whatever).
These decks are still Thresh.
peace,
4eak
this.
To avoid one-liner:
I dont care if there are Enforcers/Mongooses/Mental Notes/Meddling Mages/Predicts/Galina's Knights/Wear Beers anymore.
I feel that "threshold" is just a trademark for a long time. (At least since CB/Top) And if the original product is no more wanted, lets sell another one under the established name.
The overall plan (cantrip into cards you need, switchingroles between.. oh, well, i think you know how Thresh works, dont ya?) is what makes Thresh, not the exact numbers of mongooses...
Lets talk about this: Is this Thresh better than its previous incarnations? If it is stronger, than f**k Galina's Knight, Enforcer and stuff and lets call THIS deck "Thresh" and lets forget the old ones. Is it weaker? Than f**k this deck no matter how do we call it...
Was this even a real Skeggi's hero?Lol. You're my hero
I beg your Pardon ?!?
And the new cards are legals only since a dozen of days so...
Yup, this might be a Threshold thread no more. It's now a NotQuiteThresh thread, like Thresh was an evolution of Grow.dec when it was called NQG.
Decks, like species, have to evolve//adapt, or simply disappear.
Still, I do think cards like Selkies are too slow for an Aggro-Control build like CBTop.
Vintage Fish//Remora decks start running the (Exalted~)Selkies+Coatl package with success but there is less aggro decks in Vintage, thus less damage races (and there the CA provided by Selkies is worth the cost).
I dunno if this package is highly competitive in Legacy. But I'd rather run RWM than selkies in this deck//format.
ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh aka NQG [Not Quite Grow] is now with Coatl more "Grow" than ever before :D
Every DTB forum update is simply shuffling around the same ten decks.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
