has anyone else tested Goblin Legionaires (i run 2-3 in Kird Ape/ Lavamancer Slots)? my first impressions are positive. in case you are able to hold some mana open they do a lot of useful things and do swing for a nice 2 if needed as well.
I never said that.and why Aether Vial is a good thing for Zoo.
Tempo is using your resources (mana, and turns) to improve your board position. For instance, if you have a Tarmogoyf on the table and your opponent does too, playing an unsummon is card disadvantage but it will improve your board advantage, effectively giving you a tempo boost. Resource denial and likewise extra resources at the cost of card advantage are related to tempo as well. For example, stifle, sinkhole, dark ritual or lotus petal. When you stifle a fetchland you didn't only trade 1 for 1, you also effectively timewalked your opponent because you can only drop 1 land each turn (time resource)Originally Posted by Skeggi
Likewise, Aether Vial allows you to improve your board position drastically (also faster) which is why it's suited for tempo strategies. While it is true that when it comes into play it is actually a tempo loss - as soon as you are able to cast creatures with it you gain tempo with it.
You could check out this article if you want a more in depth look.
Vial does not speed the deck down. At least in goblins it doesen´t. =)
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
If you have no Vial then it's irrelevant whether it's in your deck or not, so it's not worth debating. And no, I don't think that's too many "if". On the play you can give yourself a free pass through all of their disruption. Yes, Apes and Nacatls do suck under moon, but the rest of your creatures don't. (The list with Tribal Flames is not the one I intend to run in any tournament, it's something I'm testing.) I don't know if you've ever actually played Dragonstompy, but I have a lot, and the games where you go turn 1 creature turn 2 jitte and equip are very rare. On the draw it's still good because they could play first turn moon. Yes, first turn 3sphere still fucks you, but how would another burn spell or 2cc beater have been better than vial in that scenario? At least Vial gives you a very real way to break the matchup wide open, something that another burn spell will never help with.
It's hard to cast burn spells without lands. Never tested against Pox? Trust me, you won't have lands past the second turn 90% of the time.Maybe, I've never tested against Pox 'cause no one playing it in my area. In theory, high amount of cheap burn can turn their Pox against them the same manner Vialed threats do, but I dunno...
Think of what card you'd have instead of Vial in these situations. Another 2cc beater? one more 3 damage burn spell? If you can get the stax player to 3 and still have a mana up (Or 3 under 3sphere) to cast the burn spell, you must've pulled off a miracle with your creatures to get them through all the disruption. It's much more likely that Vial will allow you to play out your creatures through their chalice and 3spheres and you can race them.Humility+Elspeth? Magus or the Tabernacle + Geddon? You're on draw? turn 2 Exalted Angel (and Vial instead of 2nd burt to kill her fast)? Again, too many "If"...
I never said it was the be all-end all zoo list that everyone should be running, just that I was testing it. No, I don't intend to run that list at any major tournament, but it was worth testing it to see if I liked it. And from what I saw, Wasteland was good. It has great synergy with Vial, since I was able to drop beaters and stop my opponent from progressing at the same time. And yes, you're right, teeg+fireblast does suck. I hadn't thought of that, probably because I built the list around midnight and was tired. But again, I wanted to test it to see if I liked it. In the end I didn't, so I went on to test something else.Ok, about your deck: 28 mana sources in aggressive deck with no draw, no manipulate and no high-cost spells? Oh, Fireblast! But Blast + Teeg mandeck??
The thing is Vial helps you prevent them from stabilizing and makes it harder for them to deal with your creatures. It's hard for a blue deck to stabilize when they can't counter any of your creatures;You generate virtual CA since their forces, dazes, and spellsnares now only have half as many targets, and have a clock that will often be just as fast as without it, and often faster in the face of disruption.In general: Vial is a great card. But.
I. Don't. Want. To. Cut. BURN!
That's the key of Zoo/Sligh: cheap fast creatures, bash, finish with burn if they deal with creatures/before they stabilize. That's the strategy.
I don't see why no one seems to think the ability to play creatures at the end of your opponent's turn is relevant. That information advantage is huge. They don't know how many blockers to leave up, or how many creatures to attack with. It also lets you dodge firespout or wrath or pyroclasm(for the creatures pyroclasm affects). And it lets you dodge counterspells of all kinds, which are, from what I hear, very popular these days.Successfull decks with Vial are: Merfolk, Goblins. Less successful: Dead & Taxes, VialFish(+Faestill).
All theese decks run cards that make Vial better than manacheat+nocounter(Waste+Port tempo, Waste+Standstill+manlands, Spellstutter Sprite+Standstill, Tricks+Serra Avenger).
I don't see any of theese Vial tricks in Zoo and I don't think Zoo's low curve needs acceleration, one of Vial's main purpouse(the second is uncounterability because blue >>> metagame).
If a card gives you huge improvements in the face of commonly played disruption, despite slowing your clock by maybe a turn but usually nothing, how is that not a good thing?
Goblins makes the best use of Aether Vial in the format, maybe in the game, this post isn't remotely relevant to Aether Vial's role (or lack there of) in Zoo.
What makes it insane in Goblins is when on Turn 3 you're dropping 5 mana worth of guys, and Turn 4 your dropping 7 mana worth of guys, and Turn 5 you're able to drop 9 mana worth of guys. In most decks one would play there hand out and stall pretty quickly, even with the mana curve going up to 5, but Goblins allows you to chain a full hand worth of stuff, to keep Vial busy.
In Zoo you don't get the advantage of curving out with Vial. On Turn 3 you're able to Vial at 2 and cast a guy and some burn. Turn 4 and Turn 5 your Vial is still at 2, and you're not Matroning/Ringleadering into a grip full of more stuff to cast, so the extra mana is likely irrelevant anyway.
TPDMC
Ok, so just finished some testing with Vial and actually I'm very pleased with my first impressions (My testing gauntlet was Landstill, Thrash, and Merfolk. I chose these because they are the decks right now packing the LD, which apparently is where 4-5c sucks). Here's the list:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Kird Ape
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Trygon Predator
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Tribal Flames
3 Vindicate
4 Aether Vial
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Weird? Yes, but I needed to rule in/out some specific card choices I had questions about (Sculler, Predator, Vial, Manabase). Only problem is, so far, these weird inclusions seem fine. Actually, the manabase was great, and I'm even thinking of possibly going down on some land and something else (don't know what yet), for a set of Magma Jets (as a U player, I kind of missed any manipulation, especially with Bob around. Also seeing multiple Vials isn't that cool).
I love Pridemage and Predator together (another combo I've been sticking into every deck possible). There are so many relevant enchantments/artifacts around that just roll over to these guys, and I love getting in for 3 flying when both are in play.
Consistent 5 damage Tribal Flames by turn 3-5...
Bob was awesome, sucking up removal, or living to basically singlehandedly win me the game. Awesome against Landstill and Merfolk, not Thrash.
Humility sucks, but Sculler grabbed it once. Post board Grip wins anyway. Sculler was actually pretty good. Less so against Thrash.
Instant speed Pridemage was just mauling enemy Vials left and right against Merfolk. Obviously Merfolk isn't a hard matchup anyway, but this configuration made it a breeze. He had to Stifle Sculler once, haha, because they don't play any removal!
Vindicate!! Another reason why playing B alongside W is awesome - no gay STP.
I'm definitely going to keep testing this list.
@ Pomaxx: It was originally tested in my two open spots, and it turns out to be really bad or really good. He is too mana intensive and i think the Pridemage just took his spot straightup.
@ Everyone else: What you any of you guys be cutting for Aether Vial anyway? Lands, Dudes, Burn??? Everything but lands doesnt seem acceptable and even then it seems mediocre.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Hmm. check my list above you.
Without Vial, idk, I might be playing either Chain Lightning or Lightning Helix. Most likely Chain. Vial seems worth it so far.
I think that you can't cut just one or the other, because vial does not directly replace them. I'm not sure if I'd want to play 16 lands + 4 vials, because that seems low, but yet 20 lands + vial seems like too many. I think that replacing, say, 2 land and 2 less-optimal cards would work out fine (depending on the amount of land you're running).
Directly replacing one or the other is not the right thing because vial is like mana, but just not quite the same. In order to make room for it, you really do not have to give up much threat density at all in my opinion. Not having 2 (suboptimal) burn spells or 2 (suboptimal) bears probably isn't going to spell your doom more often than the times vial will help you.
Also, does anybody know how vial helps the aggro-loam matchup? I've thought about that matchup a lot and think that it's pretty hard to win. Their mana disruption is a pain for us, but vial might be able to help there.
@ 4eak
I really think that you may be convincing me. I definitely believe that Vial is at least worth the test. This would be an example list that I would run with Vial.
Creatures//24
4x Goyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Watchwolf
4x Kird Ape
2x Isamaru, Hound of Konda/Grim Lavamancer
2x Woolly Thoctar
Spells//16
4x Aether Vial
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
4x PtE
Lands//20
4x Foothills
4x Heath
1x Mire
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
2x Taiga
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Plains
I cut one land because a.) I tend to get mana flooded and B.) Vial. I cut Taiga because I tend to fetch for White/x sources more than other color combinations. I still don't like the idea of 4-5c lists. I have tested them and I tend to get manascrewed and in a big tournament, I think I would kill myself with inconsistency, much like D-Stompy. In a big tourny, I would undoubtedly run into Waste/Sink/Stifle.
Loxodon said himself that he had tested 4-5c lists extensively in both Legacy and Extended. He said that they did not work and that they were inconsistent. What about this stifles innovation? He took the next step to a deck by adding (an)other color(s), it didn't work for hi, he moved on.
Team Giancoli. Rocking the mediocrity since 2008.
20 land + 4 Vial is too much, for sure. I've been getting landflooded in testing. 18 might be the right number. 10 fetches plus 1 of each dual (excluding UB and UW), is what I'm going to try out.
Ouch, I haven't tested against Aggro Loam but it seems like it would be a beating:
Chalice @ 1
Devastating Dreams (damn...)
Cheap fatties out of burn range
Seismic Assault
EE @ 1 or 2
Mana denial in the form of Wasteland seems to be the least of our problems. I'm not even sure Vial would help much. Does anyone have any testing results for this matchup?
I have tested it using the RGW lists and it's not that bad. If you get some early beats than you can beat their loam engine. Make sure you keep a bolt in hand for when they play a crusher though, don't let them get him started or it's gonna be a long day. The best way I've found to beat them though was the opening of Nacatl, burn and goyf/thoctar.
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Team Brown & Team Unicorn. Does that make me a Brown Unicorn?
Just because Loxodon says he's "tested" them "extensively" doesn't really mean a whole lot in my opinion. In fact, I have yet to see solid data either way weather or not many colors are good. Honestly, I don't think adding black just for 4 cards (confidant) makes the manabase much more inconsistent. For the power confidant gives alone it seems worth it in my opinion. He fills a crucial role needed in zoo, which is card advantage.
Hell ya, first turn Nacatl is crazy against everything. I've recently been having to Force them when playing against this deck, and that sucks.
Holding back Bolt doesn't turn me on, though. All they need is an untapped Wasteland/Fetch/land with cycle land in hand to completely nullify Bolt. And don't forget about a previously played Chalice @ 1. In fact, if they do get that down early, your basically out of the game, unless you happen to have a Pridemage in hand or close to the top of your library, and even then, they just have to keep you off W or G for a little while, while Crusher/Vore get completely out of hand.
Seems like the same strategy is needed as against combo: try to race, then lose...
@Valtrix: I agree completely.
But what Arctic Sliver said was that this attitude "stifles innovation". No, it doesn't, he tested it personally, he didn't like it, he didn't like getting ruined by Waste. Also, adding black for Bob really does affect the mana base. You must play at least 1 Badlands, 1 Bayou, 1 Scrubland to reliably cast Bob. This means that each time you fetch, you must decide if you should get the black for Bob or the G/W/R for your Beaters. It is hard to be able to reliably cast each of your creatures with this 4th color. And once again, a single Wasteland is devastating.
Team Giancoli. Rocking the mediocrity since 2008.
I honestly just can't believe that anyone would question whether or not i've tested this deck and it's different variations.
Fetching is a pain in the ass with the 4 or 5 color versions, and in my opinion, through testing, you have to run more than 8 fetches to get your colors reliably. I suppose Aether Vial would help that though.
So i guess i better re-phrase what i'm trying to say. Aether Vial seems good in the 4 to 5 color lists, but not that great in RGW. I've been playing this deck for a really long time, and have been consistently top 8-ing with it in 30 person tourneys with mostly tier one decks being played. I've played against it all, and if you don't wanna believe that, then hey be ignorant it's your call.
Edit: Fetch basics against Aggro Loam. Bait out their Wastelands as well so you can cast your best spells. Chalice at 1 is a bitch though. And you pretty much have to RFG Terravore bc they can recur it.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
I will just jump in the middle of the discussion.
There is 1 question is have, why do allot of people think that one wasteland would be devastating?
I have won so many times while my opponent played wasteland.
The deck play's 22 lands(atleast the build i play) there are so many way's to find your land. The decks that play wasteland can't affort to go waste x4 they will miss theire land/collors. They have to make a choice, miss critters or buisness while you have your 1/1,2/2 beating them to death.
With every fetch/land drop you can make one of your creature's bigger.
Fetching a pain in the ass? no, turn 1 and 2 are easy then you have the choice for which land you will fetch. Alway's as last minute you fetch the blue one.
8 fetches? 10 -12 is the right number for 5c no less.
The discussion about dark confidant. I swear with him. The choice to fetch for a scrub/badlands/bayou is alway's in turn 2? 3? not the first turn. He gives so much extra, in my build a bigger chance to get my vindicate/burn/removal or more beaters. He also has a body of 2/1.
if the 4/5c didn't work etc why do i see so many 4/5c builds in the t8? I have played with allot of zoo decks, i really prefer the 5c build, also tested against the 3c build and its just not it. Maybe just like loxodon its a personal choice.
I like the "extra's" in 5c, the confidant/vindicate the extra damage from tribal flame.
There is one thing to remember, i think we are discussing 2 meta's, the Europe one and the American one? I some reply's i see people say dragon stompy etc etc, i think the last time i saw that deck was 3/4 year ago?
Then we have the discussion of Vail i planned on testing it today but i failed!
But what will you cut for vail. Land? burn? creature? none of these i want to cut. They are all really important in Zoo.
the discussion about Pridemage vs Trygon(atleast if you call it a discussion) allmost everybody say, trygon sucks pridemage rules!
In a Counterbalance rich meta, what do you prefer? The problem with pridemage in my opinion his cost is 2, the curve of CB decks is 1 - 2 and a little little little bit 3 then you have to sacrifice him.
Exalted what does it do in Zoo? the whole idea of exalted is to attack with one creature a time right? yeah you can win the goyf war! isn't that where you can use your burn for? I happily will trade a critter so i can swarm you to death?
Trygon has flying, does his trick every time he deals damage to a player. What decks play flying creature?
I hope a made some sense.
grtz, Yui
Little do they know, I'm stealing their pants and using them for evil purposes!
@ Yui: Your argument made some sense. I only want to make one statement, like sure the 4 or 5 color lists do well, but that's mostly in Europe ya know? I'm not insulting Europe's deckbuilding or Legacy Metagame, but i look at some lists on Deckcheck and ask myself, "How in the hell does this deck win?". European metagames seem so random...
I also dunno why Deckcheck posts little 7-11 man tourneys on there at all. I know this isn't the right thread to say this in, but it makes sense.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Just observations...
22 is high compared to most lists that have been posted here. Not that its wrong, it definitely helps mitigate the argument of a poor/disruptable mana base, but just for reference most of the lists posted are 19-21. Also Wasting the Zoo player can definitely be a good play early; if they take out two colors while shrinking a Nacatl, it definitely sets Zoo back quite a bit. I mean it depends on both players' hands, but it can trip the Zoo player up quite a bit if they don't have their 3rd land drop, or draw a redundant dual and aren't able to cast an off color card.
Adding additional colors means there are more choices, so it inherently makes playing the deck more complex, and leaves more room for error (or for your choices to be capitalized on by an opponent with LD). For instance in the 3c version the mana base is very redundant, the 8 Green fetches can all grab any dual, and each can grab 2 different basics if needed, so if you'd really need a Plateau, you have 8-9 fetches and the 3 duals to access it. In the 5c versions you can still use any fetch to gain you access to the color you need, but if for instance you really want a Scrubland for Pridemage and Confidant, there are only going to be 5-6 fetches that can access that particular dual plus the dual itself.
This directly ties to the mana base thing above. He's definitely an amazing card, it's a personal preference if one is looking for more raw power, at the risk of color consistency and being more susceptible to LD. In this sense the 3c vs 5c debate sort of parallels the Nassif NLU vs Probasco NLU. Nassif's build, similar in principle to 5c Zoo, goes for splashing more colors and commits to fetching more early duals, for the pay off of playing the most powerful cards in each color and their combinations. Probasco's build, in this comparison similar to 3c, sacrifices some of the raw power cards, in order to ensure a consistent mana base and leave less room for opponents to capitalize on shutting down splash colors via LD.
Yea I agree, I think Metagame and again personal preference are the two contributing factors as to which build is better for a given player. If playing in a heavy mana disruption field or a more conservative player than the 3c version probably will work better for you. If you don't see as much mana disruption and are willing to risk those matches you do run into, then in the matches where you don't run into mana disruption you will likely have the more powerful deck.
The Vial thing I think it's really build dependent. In the 5c versions running more Fish(y) creatures I can see it's place, if you're playing for the midgame and are willing to take the early tempo hit for the mid game tempo boost I guess it works.
If you're playing the 3c versions that are closer to R/G Goyf Sligh with White cause Nacatl and Pridemage are redic. I think you really want to capitalize on the early game pressure of T1 Nacatl/Ape, and getting that swing in before most decks have blockers.
In 5c some combination of the 2 is probably good. Obviously in 3c there's only Pridemage. And even if there was a Trygon Predator I don't think it would fit 3c's game plan, Exalted is really good for buffing your Turn 1 guy, again an irrelevant play if you're casting Vial Turn 1. Also I like that Pridemage complements your burn as additional ways to trade your 1cc threats for larger blockers in the mid game if you need to clear the path. For instance an Exalted 3/4 Kird Ape attacking into a blocking Goyf then Lavamancing it out. If it means the following turn you can attack with Pridemage and a couple other guys, it helps supplement Path to Exile as ways to remove road blocks to your swarm.
TPDMC
The funny thing about Counterslivers is that for a long time champions of the deck on this forum, Volt and Pinder, poo pooed the inclusion of Aether Vial in that deck. They kept this attitude until Pinder actually tested the card in preparation for Grand Prix Columbus and came out and said that "Aether Vial is retardedly good". Since then a new thread has been made but this time the opening post now lists Aether Vial under "automatic maindeck cards" as a 4 of.
Volt and Pinder arguing against the inclusion of Aether Vial in counterslivers stifled innovation for quite some by preventing the deck from reaching it's full potential. Loxodon Baileyarch has said himself that he hasn't played with vial in this deck but seems certain that it's no good so he dismisses outright instead of actually playing with it. This is an attitude that will only serve to stifle innovation.
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