[Deck] Zoo

[B is for Big Job]

if youre smart and play helix, lifeloss doesnt really matter and most of the time youre usually ahead on damage so the risk is worth the reward. im with lox on this one, I like bob, just not in this deck. In mine i play TS so bob is no go.

[hungryLIKEALION]

This is the list I anticipate running at the lotus tournament I'm playing in this Sunday, with minor changes:

// Lands
2 [U] Savannah
3 [A] Taiga
3 [R] Plateau
1 [US] Forest (1)
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ALA] Plains (2)
1 [CST] Mountain (2)

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [AN] Kird Ape
2 [CNF] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist

// Spells
4 [REW] Lightning Helix
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [CNF] Volcanic Fallout

+1 Savannah, +1 Stomping Ground, -2 Taiga

The sadness of card limitations is very real :(

I'm also considering cutting another land. 20 seems to get my flooded occasionally. Also, I just lost a match to the worst faeries deck ever because I drew 9 lands in my top 20 cards... this guy was horrible, I even got him to pop his own standstill and still lost due to flood. -_-

[Arctic_Slicer]

You only have two spells in your whole deck that cost more than two mana(Knight of the Reliquary). With 4 Aether Vials you probably only need 18 land, maybe 19 tops. In the extra slots I would probably run Umezawa's Jitte but if you don't have that card then extra creatures is probably fine.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I do have 2 jittes. I had them in the side, but I'll try them main I guess. They do seem good against pretty much every deck, so why not.

for the two lands to cut, 1 savannah and 1 bloodstained mire, or what?

[joey223]

hello zoo thread!

question for all.

what would be the best list without goyf and what colors?

and if we are not running goyf in RGW,what would be a good replacement?
i was thinking epochrasite but it may be too slow.

i ask because a buddy is going out of town with my goyfs.

thanks.



@hungry:
i would drop 1 mire and 1 plateau. hope that helps

[hungryLIKEALION]

What I used to do when I didn't have goyfs was add more non-green spells and play Quirion Dryad. That's the best advice I can come up with.

[umbowta]

hello zoo thread!

question for all.

what would be the best list without goyf and what colors?

and if we are not running goyf in RGW,what would be a good replacement?
i was thinking epochrasite but it may be too slow.

i ask because a buddy is going out of town with my goyfs.

thanks.



@hungry:
i would drop 1 mire and 1 plateau. hope that helps

Without goyf you go back to GRW Jank, now with more cats. I'd try it first like this, paying attention to whether or not StP or PtE might be needed.

4 foothills
4 heath
bloodstained
4 taiga
3 plateau
2 savannah
mountain
forest
plains

4 nacatyl
4 kird ape
2 isamaru
3 lavamancer
4 pridemage
4 wild mongrel

4 lightning bolt
4 chain
4 helix
3 fireblast
2 cursed scroll/jitte

[kicks_422]

Would Mongrels really be necessary? Why not Thoctars?

[hungryLIKEALION]

Mongrels fuel lavamancers which is okay I guess.

[b4r0n]

I just split the finals of the DHG Mox tournament (32 players) with Zoo. This was my list:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Woolly Thoctar

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
4 Magma Jet
3 Lightning Helix
3 Price of Progress

SB:
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Volcanic Fallout

Quick tournament report and some thoughts on the deck:

Round 1: ANT/TES hybrid
Game 1: I get a slow start, but he's tight on mana and I end up killing him with 2 Woolly Thoctars while I'm at 1 life. Fun fact: playing against combo was the only time all day that Thoctar was relevant. Who would have thought.
Sideboarding: -4 Path to Exile, -2 Thoctar, +3 Gaddock Teeg, +3 Relic
Game 2: I get triple Nacatl. He gets a bad Diminishing Returns. Rough.

Round 2: U/B Combo-Control (Leyline/Helm and Stifle-Nought)
Game 1: I get pretty solid start, but he EEs away my Pridemage and Intuitions for Dreadnoughts. I can't find a Path or a Qasali in time, and barely lose the damage race.
Sideboarding: -2 Thoctar, -3 Lightning Helix, +3 Krosan Grip, +2 Gaddock Teeg
Game 2: He starts with a Leyline in play. I get in some early beats with Nacatl, then he drops a Web of Inertia (yeah, look that up). Anyways, I keep throwing burn at the dome and bring him down to 6ish before he drops a Dreadnought. He gets one swing in, but I find the Grip, blow his Web, and alpha strike with Nacatls for the win.
Game 3: I get a stupidly fast start with Nacatl and Pridemage and blow him out.

Round 3: LEDless Ichorid (piloted by Jaynel, my brother)
We discuss drawing, but decide that it's better for one of us to scoop to the other. He feels like he has a better shot to win out, so he scoops me into top 8.

Round 4: ID

Round 5: ID

I make top 8 as the 7th seed at 3-0-2. Jaynel loses to Counterslivers in the last round, and barely misses out on top 8 on breakers.

Top 8: Counterslivers (Ugw) (same list that knocked out Jaynel)
Game 1: I get a solid start, and deal 10+ damage to him before he stabilizes the board with Crystalline Sliver and pump slivers. However, by that point a Price of Progress + Lightning Bolt is lethal. He doesn't have the countermagic for it.
Sideboarding: -2 Thoctar, -2 Path to Exile, -1 Lightning Helix, +3 Volcanic Fallout, +2 Umezawa's Jitte
Game 2: I get another solid start and deal a lot of damage quickly. Price + Helix is lethal again.

Top 4: Dreadstill (Ur) (piloted by Roodmistah)
Game 1: He Stifles an early fetch which slows me down a lot. He soon drops a Dreadnought, and has the Force for my Path.
Sideboarding: -2 Thoctar, -3 Lightning Helix, +3 Krosan Grip, +2 Volcanic Fallout
Game 2: He gets stuck on 1 land while I draw tons of land. All I need is a single Nacatl to go the distance.
Game 3: I mull to 6 and keep a land-light hand. However, he drops a Standstill turn 2, so we play draw go for a while. I build up my manabase and have a great hand by the time he finds a Factory to start the beats. I Jet Rodney on his end step, breaking his Standstill, then Fallout his Factory. On my turn, I play a Qasali. He Clasms it on his turn and drops a Counterbalance. I play another Qasali, which gets Snared, but my Nacatl, Price of Progress, and 6/7 Goyf all resolve. He plays a Dreadnought and a Standstill on his turn, with a 1cc floating on top. I pop his Standstill with a Path on his endstep, clearing away the 1cc spell, then play a second Path on my turn and swing for the win.

Top 2: Eva Green
I consider playing it out, as I think the matchup is pretty favorable for me. However, I haven't really played it before, so I err on the side of caution and accept a split for $100 cash.

A few thoughts on the deck:

1. Combo seems unwinnable without devoting a lot of space to the matchup. My plan was to either dodge combo or just take the loss like a champ. I figured that with the amount of Counterbalances floating around, there wouldn't be a high number of people playing combo and/or they would just lose to the Counterbalances. I still feel like this is the right approach.

2. Every single time I got a turn 1 Nacatl I won. Also, Qasali Pridemage is the NUTS. That card is just so good.

3. Path to Exile is also incredible. I feel like it's absolutely necessary in order to deal with Goyfs, Dreadnoughts, and Coatls, and I would never run less than 4.

4. Thoctar is really underwhelming. It never had a significant impact in game 1 (except against combo...), and I boarded it out in every game 2. Still, I'm not sure what to replace it with, as it's a pretty hefty beater when it resolves and it seems really good in the mirror. I'm considering dropping the 2 Thoctars and a burn spell for 3 Grim Lavamancers, but we'll see.

5. I was pretty happy with the sideboard. I think the Relics, Fallouts, Grips, and Jittes are all necessities. Gaddock Teegs were meant to combat Landstill, but I never got the chance to use them for that. I might try out something else in that slot (maybe Choke?). Also, I think I'm going to find room for the 4th PoP in the board (probably over the 4th Relic).

[Guevera59]

Congratulations b4r0n. How were the PoP's? Was the life loss ever significant? Were you hesitant to play them when you had so many duals/did you fetch basics to avoid the damage? And, did you ever wish that they could hit creatures?

[hungryLIKEALION]

Hey. I just got 6th in a lotus tournament at The Portal in Bethlehem PA playing Zoo. I'll post my tournament report some time tonight.

I went 4-1 in the swiss, beating Death and Taxes, Counterbalance, Goyf sligh, and Goblins and losing to Counterbalance. In the top 8 I lost to Basic Land Rock. It was horrible and I certainly should have won but my deck crapped out on me. Better luck next time I guess.

Still, 6th was good. Here was my list:

// Lands
2 [U] Savannah
2 [A] Taiga
3 [R] Plateau
1 [US] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ALA] Plains (2)
1 [CST] Mountain (2)
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [AN] Kird Ape
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
2 [CNF] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 [REW] Lightning Helix
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [CNF] Path to Exile
3 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [4E] Winter Orb
SB: 3 [OV] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

Full tournament report later...

Edit//So, here's the report.

Before the tournament my list was pretty much as it was here, but I had skyshroud elites and more maindeck jittes instead of Price of Progress and Knights of the Reliquary. I decided to make the switch to PoP upon seeing b4r0n's list, actually. The Knights I put back in mostly because I wanted a three drop that wasn't wooly thoctar and Knight has test positively for me before.

I got to the site pretty early and saw a lot of landstill, so that's why I put winter orbs in my sideboard. The first round started at 1.

Round 1-Joe playing Death and Taxes

Game one I open on nacatl and hit him with it while playing other big guys, and he can't really get his tricks online it time. I path mangara and use lavamancer to leave only 1 card in each graveyard, forcing him to sacrifice jotun grunt.
Game two I open on vial and make some quick dudes, and burn his blockers again. PoP is mostly dead here.

SBing:-3 Price of Progress, -1 Tarmogoyf +1 Jitte +3 Pyroclasm

Round 2-Luke playing 4c CounterTop

I was pretty annoyed to play against Luke since he was my testing partner for the event and had lent me pretty much my entire mana base. We discussed drawing but ended up deciding to play it out.

I keep a hand with plateau, plains, and mountain in game 1 with a kird ape and tarmogoyf in hand. I don't draw a forest until late in the game, so my ape doesn't get much damage in and my goyf just sits in my hand until I eventually run it in to counterbalance. I lose.
Game two I drop really quick beats and he plays chill, but I just sit under the chill and lavamancer him out despite being stuck on two lands.

Game three I just don't have enough gas and counterbalance fucks my christmas.

SBing:-4 Tarmogoyf, -2 Knight of the reliquary, +3 Relic of Progenitus, +3 Krosan Grip

Should probably quick explain my SB strategy here. when playing against blue goyf decks with sowers and shackles and such, I like to take out my own goyfs and knights and bring in relics. That way if one of my guys gets stolen I can just run it over with my other guys pretty much every time, and they can't steal my goyfs and fuck my day with it. I can also keep their goyfs small (sometimes even 0/1s!) with relic and lavamancer, so I can continue the beats with my 3/3s and 2/3s. In my testing, this has been the best way to approach these matches for me.

Round 3-Evan playing 4c CounterTop
Game 1 I keep a hanf with two aether vials and some burn. He doesn't have a ton of action besides a top and I get him pretty low before he plays shackles and takes my kird ape. He stifles a lavamancer activation that would be lethal, so I have to find 2 more cards to put in my yard so I can kill him. I topdeck a fetchland and then a PoP. I cast the PoP but he counters it, so I just lavamancer him out.
SBing:same as round 2.
Game 2 I think I led on Vial again and made like an ape and a lavamancer +nacatl off vial if I remember correctly. I played some lightning helixes and he couldn't stabilize.

Round 4-Matt playing GoyfSligh
Wasn't really hoping to play this match up, but here we are.
Game 1 I keep a hand with vial and a lot of burn but don't draw any creatures. I fetch for all basics since I have PoP in hand, and after the match I learn he had two of his own in his hand. I burn his early creatures, but when I draw none of my own, I succumb to his onslaught.

Game 2 I keep a creature heavy hand and our roles are reversed. I make turn 1 Nacatl, he bolts it. I make Goyf, he makes Jitte, I make my own Jitte and Kird Ape and he can't get back in it.

Game 3 he gets stuck on one land for a few turns and I just bash him hard. Such is magic.

SBing:-4 Aether Vial, +1 Jitte, +3 Gaddock Teeg (Since he has Fireblast, and just since I want more guys.

Round 5-Joe(I think it was Joe >_> I only wrote J.) Playing Goblins
Game 1 we both have really weak hands but I manage to burn his lackey and warchief and eventually get there with pridemage and an 8-point PoP.
SBing:-4 Aether Vial, +3 Pyroclasm, +1 Jitte
Game 2 I have a beautiful hand but only 1 land, a taiga. I lead on Ape and he wastes my land. I draw a fetch and play it but don't crack it, and then get a second fetch off the top. I crack both for my basic forest and mountain and clasm his lackey and warchief and swing with my ape. I start dropping goyfs-three in a row, after using pridemage to destroy a vial when I hit a third fetch (I get my basic plains.) He uses Pyrokinesis on my first 3/4 goyf with sorcery, artifact, and creature in the yards. I don't realize Goyf becomes 4/5 until the following turn when I drop the second Goyf. I call the Judge but he says we can't go back since a turn has gone by. I'm a sad panda. :( I win anyway.

Top 8, I play against a fucking awful Rock deck that somehow made it 3-1-1. Game one I dominate him with removal for his blockers and a nacatl, Goyf, Knight curve. Game two I mull to six and keep a decent hand but don't get there on the draw. I over extend into Deed unfortunately.

Game three I keep 1 land with several 1 drops, a goyf, and a Relic, but don't see a second land for 7 turns. Them's the breaks. If I had curved out he wouldn't have stood a chance.

SBing:-1 Path, -1 Helix, -3 Aether Vial, +2 Winter Orb, +3 Relic of Progenitus.

So I end the day 4-2 and with 3 draft sets to my name. Kinda lame prize support for $25 but it's better than nothing I guess.

Anyway, the deck played great for the most part. I know I really backed Vial in this thread as a maindeck card, but I played far less blue today than I thought I would. If I played this deck again I think I'd put Vial in my board in favor of more dudes main or more burn. I kinda like the thought of playing Chain Lightning. PoP was great. I did fetch for Basics a lot after my first 2-3 lands, or even all basics in some scenarios, but the life loss from it was never really a problem for me. It was pretty stellar every time I cast it, even though it rarely resolved. There were a lot of games where it was lethal and the blue deck had to expend its resources to stop it.

Knight of the Reliquary is a house, and I will always reccomend him over Wooly Thoctar if you want a 3 drop. He doesn't get hit by hydroblast or Chill, and he is absolutely huge. If you end up in a stand off, he makes it much easier to win by thinning out your deck while becoming absolutely monstrous. And in corner cases, he can fix your mana, or pretty much infinitely fuel your lavamancers. If you've been finding Thoctar lacking but still want a three drop like I have, I can't reccomend Knight enough.

Well, I guess that's all. Thanks for reading.

[AngryTroll]

With these (mostly) standardized GRW lists with Pridemage and friends, it's probably a relevant question again (last time this was discussed was long before Pridemage and the current builds):

Is Figure of Destiny better than Kird Ape? Our team tested Goyf Sligh, and we came to the conclusion that it was a fair amount better than Ape, although most people seemed to come to the opposite conclusion.

Wild Necatl is easily the best one drop, but Figure seems slightly better than Kird Ape, which is better than Skyshroud Elite. Grim Lavamancer falls in there somewhere around Figure, probably. I'd probably take B4RON's exact list (congrats on the finish), and go -4 Kird Ape, -2 Thoctar; +4 Figure, +2 Grim Lavamancer (or 3/3 split). Of course, I didn't just split for first, though.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I haven't tested figure in a long time, but I'd be willing to try it out again, even though I do like Kird Ape quite a bit. Lavamancer is definitely awesome though.

[eq.firemind]

Hey everyone, what do you think about Rancor? I remember it was used in some zoo/sligh decks some time ago before Nacatl and Pridemage were printed to add the needed power and some kind of 'evasion'. And now turn 2 5/3 attacking Nacatl looks very cool!

hungryLIKEALION, congratz on finish and nice report.
How do you feel about SB Winter Orb? I like the card very much, but just can't think a way to use it in Legacy...
Knight of the Reliqary? Hmm... Need to test this one 'cause I seek the replacement for Thoctar... And she has some little synergy with Fireblast I already want to fit in...

I spent some more time testing Vial and I came to Price of Progress too.
Every card's abilities must be used on full power, but Zoo already has very low curve and is not mana-intensive (like, say, Goblins or Merfolks or VialSurvival), so one of Vial's main ability, manacheating, is deemed alot. To compensate that, I tried to maximize mana stability to laugh on Waslands (alot of theese in my meta) and other nonbasic hate.
The other thing I didn't like about Vial was the need to cut burn, so why don't just run more devastating burn? Price of Progress fits perfect. I even think about 2 Fireblasts somewhere here 'cause with Vial in play I can sac my lands and still throw my dudes in battle.
And Figure of Destiny needs a try in my Vial list too to give me more things to do with my mana.

That's all for now, as usual, need more testing...

[hungryLIKEALION]

I threw the winter orbs on my board because I saw several people were playing landstill when I showed up to the tournament site, but I only ever sided them in once and that was against the stupid rock deck I played in top 8, and I didn't draw them against him, so...

I really don't know. ;p

Price rocked though, and I am now considering shifting vials to the SB in favor of more burn.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I actually like the idea of KoTR in place of Thoctar. I don't run Lavamancer either, and it just seems good. And in the face of those pesky Wastelands i'm so scared of, it makes the card seem even better. And i run 9 fetches so he could get huge. And oh how i love basics! It can fetch those too. I don't wanna have to get him in foil though... haha.

I'm glad the whole Vial debate is settling down. I got on here to make some points a few days ago, but you folks had already done that for me! Thanks.

@ AngryTroll: I couldn't see ever cutting Ape. I tested FoD when i first picked up the deck, and i hardly ever made him a 4/4, and when i did it was irrelevant. He usually stayed a 2/2 bc i wanted to do other stuff with my mana. I could see cutting Isamaru for FoD though.

[Volt]

@ AngryTroll: I couldn't see ever cutting Ape. I tested FoD when i first picked up the deck, and i hardly ever made him a 4/4, and when i did it was irrelevant. He usually stayed a 2/2 bc i wanted to do other stuff with my mana. I could see cutting Isamaru for FoD though.

I tested FoD a while back and became pretty convinced that it was better than Kird Ape. I was running 20 lands, though.

[eq.firemind]

Here's the Vial list I'm testing right now (It has many in common with hungryLIKEALION's):

1 Savannah
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
4 Wooded Woothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mouintain
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Wild Nacatl
2 Kird Ape - pretty solid, 3 ass is good when I side in Pyroclasm
2 Figure of Destiny - to spend my Vial-saved mana.
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary - was Thoctar, but she looks pretty good...

4 Aether Vial

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning - can be Helix, but I don't want too many white
2 Rancor - To speed up the deck even more. I also had nice win against Humility bashing with 3/1 dudes.
3 Path to Exile - the deck has Rancor & burn to ignore creatures, so only 3 of theese. Also less white is good.
3 Price of Progress - I like good burn
2 Fireblast - I like more good burn

SB:
3 Krosan Grip - Maybe 3 Ancient Grudge here? The deck kills very fast, so Deed/Humility/Survival engine is often too late, CB-Top is not played much in my meta, Affinity, StaX and Stompy(both Dragon and Faerie) are popular...
3 Pyroclasm
3 Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus- dunno here, crypt feels better for cost
1 Price of Progress - they are brilliant, but 4 MD is no good in random metagame
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Free slots - need your advice here. Maybe Pithing Needle or Magus of the Moon? Or REB/Pyroblast?

I'll be glad to hear your thoughts about how to improve my list.

[jimmerz213]

I actually ran Figures over kird ape this past weekend at the big legacy event in Vestal. My feelings we're mixed..on one hand, there were a couple times I traded 2/2 for 2/2 with merfolk whereas kird ape would have blocked and lived like a champ. However, I think Figure draws removal away from the other creatures better than kird ape does since the threat to get bigger is there.

Oh yea, and if you can survive long enough to do it, figure can eventually fly over moats when your facing Quinn, not that IBA let me live long enough to try it...

All in all, Id have to say I like figure better. Ill definitely be testing it out more. And ill put a list up when I get back from work of the deck I ran, see what you guys think.