I don't think I'd play either of those over Isamaru. My only concern with the card is that it's not a very good topdeck. 10 1cc beaters seems a bit much with 21 lands. Have you tested FoD in that slot?
Also, looking at your list... How have the watchwolves been treating you? I played them for a bit, but gave them up for Gaddock Teeg. For reference, here is my list:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nacatl
4 Kird Ape (considering figure in this slot)
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Pridemage
3 Wooly Thoctar
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Jitte
2 Cursed Scroll
(the above two I'm not sure on. I want to have room for more of each)
3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 chain Lightning
20 lands (9 fetches, 3 basics, 8 duals)
Play figure, he's good. Although he does kind of fill a similar role with thoctar, so if you're running 4 figure you could perhaps cut some for some other creatures.
Also, I support Teeg in the main as well. Sure, he's sometimes a 2/2 beater, but it gives you at least some out against combo main, stops force, stops explosives, and can sometimes be a pain. What I really like most is that he frees up some sideboard slots.
I would recommend cutting a chain lightning for the 4th path. It's really really nice to have as many answers to tarmogoyf as people can play of him. It's just pretty stellar in general.
@Carabas: I've tested about every card that could go in Zoo, people on TheSource doubt me, but i know what's up.
I ran FOD as a 2of when i picked the deck up, and it just slowed down the deck in the early game. I never wanted to cast him on turn 1 because i'd have to expend mana turn 2 instead of playing 2 1drops or a 2drop. Late game is when most people fear him, and against control or most other decks other than aggro, they have a way better late game than you do and then it's pointless. It's a mana sink when you need to be winning.
I love Watchwolf, i never see people running him anymore, but 3/3s are good, and he doesn't have any land stipulation that comes with him like Ape and Nacatyl. He will always be beef, no matter the situation.
EVERYONE runs Grim Lavamancer. And most people think i'm dumb for not running him, but my deck is a more heavy permanent deck so i don't get much into the graveyard ever.
Now about your list, i LOVE both Scroll and Jitte, but i ended up cutting Scroll from my list because Pridemage was printed. I still run Jitte as a 2 of, and i never am sad to see it and it's never a bad topdeck. Once you get it activated, you just win. I've compared him to Dark Confidant time and time again. And Jitte lets you steal game ones because most people don't run maindeck artifact removal.
I'm also thinking about cutting a Savannah for another spell, because though I've been consistently winning with the deck, i seem to get a bit mana flooded alot. So a bunch of 1cc beaters won't be that big of a problem.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Any justification for not playing Magma Jets? It's a great card and your only draw spell.Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
-Slay
OH SHIT THERES A HORSE IN THE HOSPITAL
Team Slay and Lego: Slay your a tool and your glasses are almost as GAY as your retarded snitch of a boyfriend Lego. Lego focus on your own game you are a fucking clown and should have heard the rediculous amount of people saying how much of a dick you were being and what kind of a fool you are. I laugh at you two. Seriously you both need attitude adjustments. I have never encountered a larger pair of pussy bitches in my whole life.
Magma Jet is really good, but it's at its best when in topdeck mode. It's perfect for Goyfsligh which has a tendency to run out of steam mid-game, but I think Helix is slightly better in Zoo because the deck is slower, more uniform, and needs to maximize all of its spells. It doesn't have oops-I-win cards like Price and Fireblast to dig for.
^This
Although, I do run 2 in my list its simply because I cant find anything better to put there. I think I may try taking them and Figure's out of mine for 4 Kird Apes (which I currently dont run).
On the Isamaru question...he is very good imo. Hes a great turn one drop yet hes not too great that they use the removal they are spending on nacatl/thoctar on him. He stays in play probably the longest out of all my creatures.
@Slay: I don't think the deck needs any deck manipulation or draw. Every card(besides lands) are threats in their own right. They aren't all Goyfs but they get the job done. Plus i can't bring myself to pay 2 mana for 2 damage, I'd rather play Incinerate at that point.
@jimmerz213: Yeah they never wanna waste removal on Isamaru until he's took a chunk out of their life, and then it's just funny. I think he is a just as good, if not better than Ape in some situations. He will be the next card getting the axe in my build when some new 1drop dude is invented.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
The phrase you used 'besides lands' is the whole point of magma jet. When over a third of your deck is lands, it keeps you from getting manaswamped or it occasionally helps you get that 3rd land drop. Burn decks usually use magma jet even though every card is a threat for the sole reason of ignoring the dead land draws, so it seems as if zoo decks should also be able to benefit from the utility also.
Ok lemme rephrase, just for you buddy.
I like drawing lands because i don't want random Wastelands fucking my day up. I don't like dealing 2 damage for 2 mana.
And the only 3cc card in my deck is Thoctar, as a 2of. So i'm good with 2 lands drawing business.
Plus my list in tight enough in my eyes, and I'm not cutting good card for ok ones.
Edit: Before everyone is like, "OMG THIS GUY IS A DICK HE HATES GOOD CARDS!" Magma jet is a fine card, in burn and goyf sligh. Zoo has the distinct advantage of most of it's spells being threats that attack, not burn. It doesn't run out of gas as fast as you think.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
And too add to that, from my personal experience anyway, I like being able to do 3 (Helix) over 2 (Jet) to whatever is in my way. The way I use burn is mainly to clear a path for my creatures to get in for the kills or to maximize damage on a blocker. The lifegain off of helix doesnt hurt either.
That's also exactly why I don't understand why some people do not run Chain Lightning. I'd rather use Path or Stp (I'm thinking of playing only Paths but i'll keep it 2/2 for now) as removal but if you do want to clear the path for your creatures with burn then 2 damage a lot of time isn't enough.
Weird, I felt like clearing the way for attackers is where Magma Jet shined the most and that it falls short when going to the dome trying to finish the game. At least in my experience other than the mirror match there aren't very many creatures with bodies of X/3, IE. either Jet serves the purpose (Goblins, Merfolk, Dark Confidant, Trinket Mage, Qasali Pridemage) or a Bolt effect isn't enough anyway (Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf, Dreadnought).
The same more or less applying to taking out larger blockers, Pridemage, Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, Knight/Thoctar, are all swinging in for 3+ so in order for them to take out a X/5 (Tombstalker, Goyf) then you only need 2 more points of damage. I guess in cases of Kird Ape, Gaddock Teeg or Isamaru then the extra point of damage can be the difference between 1 for 2ing the larger guy or being unable to though.
TPDMC
You totally have a point, but i think the argument lies not in killing dudes, but maximizing each spell. I would rather kill my opponent now instead of Scrying and waiting a turn. I know one damage is hard to argue over that, but again, maximizing damage from spells is what Zoo is about.
And jesus, this is not a flame post towards you
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Yea when going to the face the extra point of damage can definitely be relevant, occasionally for killing opposing Nacatls or Kird Apes too, the situations come up where the 1 extra damage is definitely more relevant than looking at the next two cards.
At the same time the situations come up where you're in a ground stall and are going to be doming all your burn anyway, and if they are at 4 or 5 or 7, then the scry can be completely amazing if you bring them to 2 or 3 or 5 and clear off two irrelevant cards in your search for another burn spell. Additionally digging for a Disenchant effect against a Humility or Shackles, or PTE/STP against a Dreadnought or Terravore, etc etc.
The burn argument/debate seems played out though, pretty much any of the cards being discussed are viable, if it's working for you (you as in anyone playing the deck), then maybe there's no reason to try a swap, if you find yourself wishing it was something else there's a half dozen spells that can be considered for burn spots after Lightning Bolt, as many have mentioned: Chain Lightning, Lightning Helix, Magma Jet, Incinerate, Seal of Fire, Grim Lavamancer, Fireblast, Price of Progress.
TPDMC
I would say that if youre not playing magma jet I think seal of fire should belong on that list. other than the fact that its in enchantment and pumps goyf still doesnt make it worth it to run since besides that its still 1 mana, 2 dmg.
Yay tournament report! I was at Monster Den yesterday for a 30ish man tournament, five rounds. Here's the list I played:
// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [R] Taiga
1 [R] Plateau
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [4E] Plains (1)
2 [R] Savannah
2 [R] Scrubland
1 [9E] Forest (3)
1 [R] Badlands
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
// Spells
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [DS] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 [EVE] Duergar Hedge-Mage
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
Round 1: Vs. Scepter-chant landstill
G1: Turn 3 scepter-chant and no pridemage spells good game.
G2: He has fire//ice on a scepter, and I have Teeg, figure and bob out. He kills figure and bob with fire. However, I get hedgemage and bring it in(to the battlefield) to blow up his scepter, but not before he kills Teeg. I get two other guys out, I think Figure and bob again, and he plays humilty. Topdeck grip gets my guys in there for the win.
G3: This was somewhat close. He plays fire//ice on scepter again, using it to kill some of my guys, then tapping down my goyf. I don't see an answer soon enough, so he gets crucible, humility, and disk out. I don't see enough answers, and lose while getting him down to 8. He just counters my lightning bolts.
Round: 1-2
Total: 0-1
Round 2: Vs. The Rock
G1: I'm on the play, and I get a cat out from a basic forest. He plays veteran explorer. I don't want to kill it, but I have to, so I swing, get myself my basic plains, then play figure and teeg. He vindicates my land (because mana denial is good, and has a wasteland for another land). I have plenty of land though. He tries getting a goyf out, but I swords it. THen I get my own goyf out and that's game.
G2: I bring in my Hedge-mages over teegs. He's on the play with no first turn plays. This game was sort of a back and forth of removal, but in the end my creatures were too much.
Round: 2-0
Total: 1-1
Round 3: Vs. Aggro Loam
G1: I didn't really this matchup, since I think it's unfavorable. G1 I'm on the play, with a vial. I have two cats in hand + teeg. He gets down a goyf turn 1 from a mox. I play my teeg, he swings with goyf, I vial in cat and double block. He kills cat, then plays another goyf. Same thing again. He tries playing something else (I think bob), but I kill it. I then topdeck Jitte, equip it to Teeg, and that spells game.
G2: He plays chalice @ 1 first turn, which makes me sad. I get a pridgemage, but he gets out goyf and bob. Bob lets him see too many cards, and I can't quite keep up with him.
G3: T1 vial go, he plays T1 chalice @ one. I have cat and figure in hand, so vial makes me happy. I get out a cat, which gets terminated, then figure comes out. He plays a goyf, but I topdeck relic and make it smaller. I get Jitte eventually, and equip it to figure, keep confidant off the table. He doesn't get anything more relevant, and I remove his goyf.
Super happy about this match. It was against a really good player too. I don't think it's favorable, but I think vial helps it at least a little bit. Chalice is such a pain, and wasteland is bad. Luckily, if they don't get an engine going they can't quite make up for their card disadvantage (so many lands, mox). This is a matchup I want to test more, and also why I went for 5 graveyard hate.
Round 3: 2-1
Total: 2-1
Round 4: Vs. Faerie-goyf-still
G1: I'm actually excited about this match. Faerie-goyf is a pretty good deck, but my friend was also playing it, and in all the times we've playtested I've always won the matchup. I have the nuts draw though, with T1 vial, T2 jitte, vial in cat, turn 3 swing. All of his creatures are small, so that basically spells game.
G2: I think I side in hedge-mages for teegs. He leads with vial, I lead with vial. I get some guys, he gets some guys. But mine are just bigger. He plays a coatl, but forgets to add a counter, then the next turn makes a huge blocking mistake. I probably would have still been able to get there, but he could have got it with great topdecks.
Round 4: 3-1
Total: 3-1
Round 5: Vs. Faerie-goyf-still (Again)
G1: This sucks, because now it's against my friend, and we can't ID into top 8. We both get vial. He doesn't get a second land drop, but I get in a figure and a pridemage. I swing, but then kill his vial with pridemage. I don't remember what happened the rest of this match, but he somehow gets there.
G2: I win this one. Vial makes his standstill much less useful, I get more removal and more guys.
G3: Two spellstutters + cloud of faeries swing over me for damage, while he plays a goyf that got protected by them as well. I get some creatures on, but not before the three damage in the air has already almost killed me. Sadness, but he wins.
Round 5: 1-2
Total: 3-2
Thoughts: I like my list a lot. Vial was incredibly useful, and I was never not happy to see it. It definitely helped me win a lot of games, especially with tricks against aggro-loam. Dark confidant was likewise very beastly He was either dealt with, or the card advantage became too much from him. Running vial made him especially more useful, because getting him EOT catches people off-guard to give me at least one draw even more reliably. I know some people say "He just draws you a card then dies," but for this deck getting some draw is huge.
Figure was also really good. None of the game kird ape would have been better, and making him a 4/4 on turn 3 happened a few times, and made the difference to get damage and guys in. At no times did his need to be pumped change the outcome of the game negatively.
8 sword effects was amazing. I almost always had an answer for goyf, which was my intent of running the list like that in the first place, and that helped out immensely. It's also very useful against landstill to get rid of their stupid mishra's factories.
4 burn I didn't mind so much. I was very happy with just running lightning bolts. It's the most powerful, and was useful when I needed it to be. I know most builds run a lot more burn, but I really want to focus on the creature war more because we have such better threats that way. I always felt that with more "traditional" lists that the deck would run out of steam too fast/not powerful enough.
I also think jitte in the main is really important. Perhaps moreso for my list, but it always it terrifying to deal with, and gives you even more answers to things.
Overall a good tournament. I felt like I could have gotten T8, but it just happens. This was my first real run in a tournament with the list, so I was very pleased at how it did. Maybe next month I'll get into T8.
After testing some with Figure of Destiny in place of Kird Ape (list otherwise the same as here), I've decided he's a house.
He gives the deck a second wind, after an opponent has stabilized, and swinging with an 8/8 flyer is such a great feeling. I value being able to get out of topdecking situations, and as I have 20 land, I often get him to 4/4. If I were playing less lands, I wouldn't run him, but 20 seems good in a meta with a lot of wastelands.
Just got back from the Source $5K Boston, went 5-3 with my Zoo list (which I will post later, when less exhausted). Losing to UGB Thresh (bad matchup - Smother, EE, Deed, Bob, Goyf...), Goblins (how?!? mana flooded Game 1, G2 die without getting land 3 for the Fallout in my hand >.<), and Goyf Sligh in Round 8. Beat UGR Thresh (not Canadian), GBW Survial, UGR Dreadstill, Dragon Stompy, & Goyf Sligh. Had a blast, was in contention for Top 16 until the end (23rd after Round 7) but wished I could have played some of the Merfolk decks there.
EDIT: List, for flaming & other Internet discussion...
4x Taiga
4x Plateau
1x Savannah
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Plains
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Magma Jet
4x Volcanic Fallout
3x Price of Progress
2x Umezawa's Jitte
SB:
4x Krosan Grip
4x Red Elemental Blast (my son runs 4x Ethersworn Canonist here when he plays the deck as he hates combo even more than I do but I didn't feel it would be a presence at the $5K but Counter-Top & Merfolk & Dreadstill would be...and I was correct)
4x Gaddock Teeg (my only real out to combo, also useful for Landstill, Stax & as a random beater if I need to swap out something atrocious, like PoP versus Goyf Sligh/Zoo/Burn when they have Fireblast & can use PoP much better than I can...)
3x Tormods Crypt (randomly useful, New England loves the Ichorid, and Relic screws my own plans...)
All my notes are home, but I plan to include a report later. Some observations, I expected a large presence of Tribal, especially Merfolk, and Counter-Top, with decent levels of Ichorid and Dreadstill (it is Massachusetts...) & some of everything else. This shaped the build of the deck in several ways. No Helix, no Path - I did not want to be reliant on my third color at all in a field I expected to have significant Wasteland & Stifle action. Also, I felt the extra burn/reach would compensate for having more trouble with Dreadnought. Goyfs didn't bother me as exalted makes mine attack better and in a deck chock full of burn, blocking meant I could trade a burn spell for a Goyf. In the event I face Tombstalker (which didn't happen all day) I have no problem 2-1ing myself to get rid of it. On that note, Chain should definitely have been Helix, the instant speed & varied CC would have made the deck better & the lifegain would have been relevant several times. Also, given that Zoo/Goyf Sligh were EVERYWHERE, having Chain thrown back was a relevant concern all day. I did not miss Path much & the places where it would have been useful, it would never have resolved (stupid Counter-Top...). 4x Fallout maindeck, loved them, proud of the choice, would not change it all. Even though I faced (1) Tribal deck all day (and ironically...lost...) it was directly responsible for a number of victories all day and the best story of my tournament as well as being completely unexpected by my opponents Game 1.
Back to work, commence flaming :)
PS I'm also excited to see how Alix approached Zoo, got to watch late glimpses of a couple games but was busy playing most of the time. Of course, Alix is a better player than most as well, which helps, but I would also be interested to see his matchups.
Last edited by scrumdogg; 06-22-2009 at 03:45 PM. Reason: now with less exhaustion!
TL,DR: if you think Saito is ok, check your moral compass. It may be broken. - Spikey Mikey, amen brother
WE know what the price of progress is (often 8-10 life). - Cait Sith
A casual stasis deck? You must not really like your friends. Do you play it before or after you pull the wings off of flys and microwave the neighbor's cat? - EwokSlayer
I've been working on this deck a lot lately, and here is the newest list I've come up with...
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
1 [US] Forest (1)
1 [ALA] Plains (2)
1 [CST] Mountain (2)
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [A] Taiga
3 [R] Plateau
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [U] Savannah
// Creatures
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [CNF] Hellspark Elemental
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
4 [AN] Kird Ape
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
3 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [REW] Lightning Helix
3 [FNM] Fireblast
4 [CNF] Path to Exile
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
It's possible I should replace Gaddock Teeg with Canonist in the SB since I'm running Fireblast.
But anyway, I like this list a lot. It's very fast, very aggressive, and still pretty resilient. Figure has surpised me with his usefulness in testing, but I'm not convinced 4 is the right number, and I kind of miss my lavamancers, so I might bring them back in place of a few figs.
Hellspark Elemental is actually amazing. Nobody wants to trade a creature for him, so he's usually just 6 damage straight up. I've got nothing but good things to say about him so far.
Turn 3 goldfishes happen around 10% of the time, turn 4 around 50%. It's REALLY powerful. And a lot of those goldfishes include the possibility of throwing a path down on an opposing goyf, so I'd say I couldn't be much happier with the list atm.
I intend to see about putting reckless charge in the deck, probably in the hellspark slot. I also would run Chain Lightning, but I can't seem to get my hands on any.
I dont understand that, you give it such praise but then you want to take it out?
reckless charge is alright, a bad topdeck if you need like a FB or pop to seal the game. I would rather play chain just because if you topdeck it, its not bad, kills a blocker or to the dome whereas if you draw charge you need a creature and them to not have a blocker.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote