[Free Article] Darwinism on Display: Legacy Counterbalance

[Kuma]

Fantastic article on a very relevant metagame issue.

I actually like Vincent’s list as compared to Ben Steiner’s list from Legacy Champs (also played by Johnathan Mosier, below). It gives up some consistency without Ponder (and some ability to find Natural Order), but it should have an easier time finding three-cost spells for Counterbalance, and the extra Trygon Predators and fourth War Monk seem like good metagame calls (and extra Green creatures are always useful with Natural Order). Vincent is also splashing Red for sideboard cards.

When I first saw Vincent's list, I was very excited at how he managed to fit all the cards I wanted in my UGW NO/CB list into his. Despite top-eighting at Legacy Champs with my list, I was ready to give mine up for his. But when I put his list into MWS and tried it, there were a few problems.

First of all, his list is 61 cards. I'm a firm believer that there is no 61 card list that can't be improved by cutting one card, and I'd like to see anyone provide a counterexample.

Second, I've found basic Plains to be weak in this kind of deck. You only run eight white cards, and none of them cost more than one white mana. You can also get white mana from Noble Hierarch off a basic Forest.

Third, Volcanic Islands in the main really suck. When you're trying to get for Rhox War Monk, and for Natural Order, Volcanic Islands are a pain in the ass. In most games, they're like basic Islands that are vulnerable to Wasteland, which is unacceptable. When I experimented with Firespout, I tried running two Volcanic Islands in my sideboard, but the package took up too many slots, and would often lead to me over-boarding. I also experimented with Dark Confidant, and trying to get black for him as well as white, blue, and green, was too difficult.

tl;dr --- If you run Natural Order and Rhox War Monk, there's no room for a fourth color, no matter how light the splash.

I've made a lot of changes to my list since Legacy Champs, and many of the changes came from my experimentation with his list. I agree that his list looks better than mine on paper; initially, even I thought as much. But when I played with it, it didn't work as well as mine.

Here's what I'm currently using, with good success:

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Trygon Predator

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

SB:

1 Trygon Predator
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Propaganda
2 Ghostly Prison
4 Spell Pierce
3 Engineered Explosives

[The_Red_Panda]

When Skeggi heard these words, he saluted Happy Gilmore and said: 'What should I have to give you! but let me go quickly, that I may take nothing from you!' And thus they parted from one another, Happy Gilmore and Skeggi, laughing as two boys laugh. But when Skeggi was alone, he spoke thus to his heart: 'Could it be possible! This Happy Gilmore has not yet heard from his mother's basement, that Counterbalance is Dead!'


Sorry, I had to.

[voltron00x]

Fantastic article on a very relevant metagame issue.



When I first saw Vincent's list, I was very excited at how he managed to fit all the cards I wanted in my UGW NO/CB list into his. Despite top-eighting at Legacy Champs with my list, I was ready to give mine up for his. But when I put his list into MWS and tried it, there were a few problems.

First of all, his list is 61 cards. I'm a firm believer that there is no 61 card list that can't be improved by cutting one card, and I'd like to see anyone provide a counterexample.

Second, I've found basic Plains to be weak in this kind of deck. You only run eight white cards, and none of them cost more than one white mana. You can also get white mana from Noble Hierarch off a basic Forest.

Third, Volcanic Islands in the main really suck. When you're trying to get for Rhox War Monk, and for Natural Order, Volcanic Islands are a pain in the ass. In most games, they're like basic Islands that are vulnerable to Wasteland, which is unacceptable. When I experimented with Firespout, I tried running two Volcanic Islands in my sideboard, but the package took up too many slots, and would often lead to me over-boarding. I also experimented with Dark Confidant, and trying to get black for him as well as white, blue, and green, was too difficult.

tl;dr --- If you run Natural Order and Rhox War Monk, there's no room for a fourth color, no matter how light the splash.

I've made a lot of changes to my list since Legacy Champs, and many of the changes came from my experimentation with his list. I agree that his list looks better than mine on paper; initially, even I thought as much. But when I played with it, it didn't work as well as mine.

Here's what I'm currently using, with good success:

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Trygon Predator

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

SB:

1 Trygon Predator
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Propaganda
2 Ghostly Prison
4 Spell Pierce
3 Engineered Explosives

Does Propaganda being vulnerable to Pyro and REB make it a worse choice than Ghostly Prison, even though it can be pitched to FoW?

[Kuma]

Does Propaganda being vulnerable to Pyro and REB make it a worse choice than Ghostly Prison, even though it can be pitched to FoW?

It depends. Ghostly Prison dodges red blasts, but gets hit by Anarchy (some Goblin lists run it to deal with Progenitus, Enchantress, and Armageddon Stax). Propaganda pitches to FoW and is a little easier to cast, but gets hit by Belcher and TES's blasts.

The only decks you're going to bring in Propaganda/Ghostly Prison for are Goblins, Ichorid, and decks that run Empty the Warrens. Most decks that run EtW run red blasts, while few Goblin decks run them. Propaganda is strictly better against Ichorid.

That's why I run the 2/2 split. It's really too meta-dependent to give a straight answer, but I'm leaning towards 4 Propaganda.

[FoulQ]

@ Kuma: A minor note but blasts are way more common than anarchy in most metagames in goblins. But of course Ghostly will be better against EtW decks because of blasts.

[SMR0079]

Kuma,

How has the Merfolk match been playing out?

I ran the red splash to combat Folk but ended up losing a close match to Zoo becasue of mana issues and realize that the fourth color will bite you in the long run.

[Kuma]

Kuma,

How has the Merfolk match been playing out?

I ran the red splash to combat Folk but ended up losing a close match to Zoo becasue of mana issues and realize that the fourth color will bite you in the long run.

Pretty solid. Firespout puts the matchup over the top, but you don't need it. Focus your efforts on taking out Lord of Atlantis, drop Rhox War Monk and beat. If you can resolve a Natural Order, they've got no answers to Progenitus. Side in Engineered Explosives and Trygon Predator for Counterbalance.

I'm like 4-1 against Merfolk with my list.

[mossivo1986]

i think its both completely unfair and retarded to compair threshhold to landstill for the most part. besides for perhaps the one instance of hanni's build and how it functions as a white splash thresh variant without the efficient critters general landstill (vindicate,wish) has adapted quite nicely to the current meta. not only is merfolk only a 60-40 preboard for most wish variants (my specialty) but vindicate variants have and even better preboard matchup based on more interactiveness in wasteland as well as more removal in vindicate. post board wether its preacher or plague both matchups increase greatly based on card quality over efficiency as well as but also the fact that merfolk has little to no card drawing outside of multiple standstill breaks or kantriping silvegill's the fact that landstill should (and does in most cases) runs top allows it to fight those long grudging top deck wars for resources/removal the like.

dredge is actually pretty close to even forces or no forces (for dredge.) and bloodghust is eaten by ep the same as ichorid is. i've thoroughly tested the non led version (consistency above explosiveness) and outside of the obvious nuts the matchup is playable with ep in place of crypt or relic, though obviously they both help.

ant is probobly the hardest matchup based on that you have 0 efficient threats (goyf qasali) mishra is far too slow by itself (alone) in my opinion and testing. though obviously siding in cb on 1 and 0 is incredibly easy for landstill and thus it can give u that soft lock that will bid u time with fac beats plus or minus elspeth decree and the like.

zoo is tough as well but its the same scenario as ant. you set up cb on 1. f their board and drive it hope protecting your board position with a combination of more efficient creature removal. and if needed wish for pulse.
(i can explain it further but its simple math that beats zoo)

overall the lack of landstill durives from the following.

1. new players are turned

[mossivo1986]

because it plays a very grinding out style of play. which causes long rounds which lots of players do not enjoy. bottom line magic players like to win and win fast.

2. its difficult to get correct information from any sort of online thread because alot of landstill players have under a year of experience. (it takes a while to fully grasp landstills rolls and hand positions in each match)

3. the deck doesnt just autowin a large percentage of its matchups. it has alot (maybe the most) 50-50 matchups in the format but alot of mu are based on knowledge of the pilot. it is this lack that is my main reason why you dont see it at the sc 5ks.

[Skeggi]

When Skeggi heard these words, he saluted Happy Gilmore and said: 'What should I have to give you! but let me go quickly, that I may take nothing from you!' And thus they parted from one another, Happy Gilmore and Skeggi, laughing as two boys laugh. But when Skeggi was alone, he spoke thus to his heart: 'Could it be possible! This Happy Gilmore has not yet heard from his mother's basement, that Counterbalance is Dead!'


Sorry, I had to.

Translation please?

I've made my point: Counterbalance is on the rise again. I'm standing by it. Yesterday I went to the Dutch Legacy Championships, where 138 people attended. I made top 8 with The Rock, eating up 4 CounterTop decks on my way there (in 8 Swiss rounds).

[The_Red_Panda]

Its Nietzsche. Famous quote from the prologue to Zarathustra. Obviously not famous enough, however. Also, I clearly misinterpreted where you stood on the issue; if you think counterbalance is on the rise again, this quote doesn't apply to you in the sense I meant it.

The quote itself refers to the metaphorical death of counterbalance. As in dead deck, nobody should be/is playing it. Given your viewpoint, the quote should be re-stated as

When Skeggi heard these words, he saluted Happy Gilmore and said: 'What should I have to give you! but let me go quickly, that I may take nothing from you!' And thus they parted from one another, Happy Gilmore and Skeggi, laughing as two boys laugh. But when Skeggi was alone, he spoke thus to his heart: 'Could it be possible! This Happy Gilmore has not yet heard from his mother's basement, that Counterbalance is Dead in Landstill!'

With the only change being "in landstill". I'm of the opinion that counterbalance (at least in the traditional non-supremeblue variants) is leaving the meta due to pressure from various decks that have been given incredibly potent tools to beat it (ie. Zoo). In that sense counterbalance is "dead".

Also, I said that Happy Gilmore lives in his mother's basement. Snicker.

[Raindown]

Anyone still been trying out those NO Prog decks? how are the results?

[voltron00x]

Anyone still been trying out those NO Prog decks? how are the results?

Still competitive, I'd say. This list came in 8th at the last $5K:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=30541

[JudasKilled]

CBs not dead its just not the only way to play legacy. It will always be good its just not 70% win rate anymore its 50/50 some better some worse.

IMO landstill/dreadstill are now unplayable garbage. But hey just my opinion.