[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

[bum_man]

Which is why you can side in Tribe game 2. Game 1 is where LED shines.
My point was that having Tribe main is like 'boarding' it in every game, even game 1. It's not like the list has more cards in it; the tribe would be something else main.

That's exactly the point. If you're boarding-in tribe and taking out LED in the first place, why not put tribe main. It frees up space in the sideboard for MORE sideboard options. At some point, LEDs are virtually win-more, which means it slots can be used more efficiently. Playing Dredge isn't about game 1s, its about post-board games.

If you've experienced playing both decks, you'd see the difference in how they play given their different deck designs, despite having relatively similar sideboards.

OT: Bloodghast does seem to have a place in Dredge given that some decks are achieving success with lists that run them, its all a matter of getting the right list, and getting used to playing that way.

[4eak]

@ TotallySweet

How is non-LED sideboard stronger than LED versions?

LEDless dredge can more comfortably sit in draw-mode, it usually has more mana to play sideboard spells, it abuses Grudge more effectively, Careful Study is quite good games 2 and 3 where you must dig for cards and need to maximize draw/discard without losing your whole hand (like Breakthrough), it baits GY-hate better than LED dredge, and it recovers from hate more effectively. Additionally, non-LED dredge has more room to be tailored to a specific metagame. This comes at the cost of initial speed and the possibility to win on turn one. non-LED dredge de-emphasizes speed and the DR-kill, but the gains in consistency give it roughly similar odds of winning as LED Dredge in game 1 (and, even if you disagree, I think game 1 is usually favorable enough that a small sacrifice would be acceptable); more importantly, LEDless has better games 2 and 3 than the LED versions against decks prepared for Dredge because it has more possible sideboard slots due to preboarding.

They look really similar.

By "they" I assume you are referring to the overall decks (not just the sideboards or the ways in which they sideboard).

Perhaps it has been a while since you actually sat down to play non-LED Dredge. They aren't so similar that an experienced player can't tell the difference between the strengths and weaknesses of the decks. They play somewhat differently.

The decks generally have these slots the same:

Dredgers: 11
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

GY-Goodies: 18
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge From Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

Draw/Discard Outlets: 7
4 Putrid Imp
3 Breakthrough

Mana/Discard Outlets:11
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
3 City Of Brass

Sideboard: 8
4 Chain Of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Ancestor's Chosen

47/60 Maindeck and 8/15 Sideboard cards are the same. Now, of course, some run 1 less Therapy, or 1 more DR, or they add the 4th Thug/Break/CoB/Grudge in both LEDless and LED dredge mains and sides, but I'm not going to go so far as to say they are part of the general shell. Also, staples for each version have been left out (e.g. Unmask main for LED, and Careful Study for LEDless). I'm also trying to ignore beta-version, unoptimized versions which pack things like Bloodghast.

An example of the 13 and 7 missing cards from LED Dredge:

Discard: 3
3 Unmask

DR-Package: 3
1 Dread Return
2 Sadistic Hypnotist

LED-based Draw/Discard Engine: 7
1 Breakthough
2 Deep Analysis
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

SB: 7
3 Firestorm
2 Tireless Tribe
1 Unmask
1 City Of Brass

Unmask is nice on the play and the LED engine gives an explosive game 1. It actually has the ability to win against bad matchups (Storm and Stax) because it focuses so heavily upon the combo. It also draws less consistent hands. It does not 'win-small', it either went for broke or it didn't. You have to mull more often, and if you fail to go off or if you get disrupted, then you are usually in a worse position than LEDless.

An example of the 13/7 missing from LEDless Dredge:

Dredgers: 1
1 Golgari Thug/Darkblast

Draw/Discard Engine: 7
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Careful Study

DR-Targets: 2
2 FKZ/Sphinx/Sage/Witness/DR

Land: 3
1 City of Brass
2 Undiscovered Paradise

SB: 7
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Darkblast
2 Firestorm
1 Woodfall Primus

LEDless dredge prefers consistency and flexibility in game 1. It doesn't win turn 1 and 2 (turn 2 is possible, but highly unlikely). Even its medium speed hands approach the fastest hands available to most aggro decks in Legacy though, and it remains more capable of absorbing disruption in wasteland/daze/FoW/StP/cursecatcher/Bolt. LEDless commonly draws good hands; it never draws the uncommon, but insane hands of LED dredge. It does ensure that you don't mull to oblivion or get disrupted into a loss on the 1st game of the match that you rely upon winning.

Obviously game 1's play out differently. Game's 2 and 3 are also different. Major highlights of LEDless Dredge sideboarding:

• Careful Study is just a house in games 2 and 3 because they help you win small (which is what Dredge should be doing in the face of hate).
• The extra Tribe is great against removal, aggro and GY hate.
• 2-3 Extra land make your sideboard much more playable, help you play through mana-denial, makes the deck less linear
• 4x Grudges are just sick, and LEDless has better ways to abuse it.
• Darkblast is stronger in LEDless; it adds to dredging consistency, gives some control, and acts as its own discard outlet.
• It has more room for silver-bullet DR-targets.
• Other tech like Gargadon, Null Rod, Needle are more playable because of the mana-base, and you have more room for their in your sideboard.

If you preboard, it's not giving more space, it's using that space in a different way

You have it wrong. 4 LED and 2 Deep Analysis are "used up space" in the main. I really don't like them in games 2 and 3, and almost always board them out when playing LED Dredge. It only has 15 cards available for siding. If you've preboarded like LEDless, you not only gain the consistency in game 1, but you open up 6 slots in your sideboard that LED Dredge doesn't have.

Essentially, preboarding gives LEDless Dredge +21 sideboard slots. This deck is very mulligan and sideboard dependant, and going LEDless helps on both accounts. Go play 10 game 2/3's with LEDless dredge and I think you'll agree, there is a difference (I suggest playing very slowly to think about the available lines of play afforded by playing LEDless).






peace,
4eak

[Spaced Ghost]

It does not 'win-small', it either went for broke or it didn't.

That is one of the more baseless statements I've seen made in this LEDless vs. true ichorid debacle.

LEDed ichorid has just as much ability to slow roll and win slowly as LEDless ichorid. More so even, considering LEDless lists tend not to run the Golgari Thug to fit in Darkbad, I mean Darkblast. Sure Darkblast was cool in extended with Jailers aplenty, but they're not so common as they used to be and there aren't too exceedingly many toughness 1 or 2 creatures main-decked in Legacy that MUST die because they stop Ichorid from winning. I really don't like dredging three to cast it a second time in one turn. Heck, I don't like dredging the four cards from thug, but you need 11 dredgers and he at least doubles as ichorid food (again making slow rolling easier). Darkblast is just bad when a more versatile option is available, Firestorm. Firestorm deals with creatures that matter, and serves multiple functions as a discard outlet and potential [sometimes partial] board sweeper - things ichorid is missing/needs more than suboptimal dredge card that hits a limited number of creatures.

I would say the majority of my wins as LEDed Ichorid have involved slow rolling my opponent with tokens/Ichorids. The explosive win is just to make them feel bad.

I'm not here to convince others their deck is inferior. I saw that statement and others like it earlier on in the thread and finally decided I had to say something. Honestly, I think it really comes down to personal taste. Clearly we've all extensively played both lists to arrive at certain conclusions about each of the respective versions. Personally I've found LEDless ichorid doesn't beat the decks I already beat any better, and it doesn't stand as good a chance against the decks I have a difficult time beating. That said, I can't disagree that the LEDless version has more flex slots available but I would say that LEDed is such a tight list because it has such an optimal maindeck. I would also say that LEDed ichorid does have a versatile sideboard and I disagree with those that say it doesn't. Eternal Witness and rainbow lands really open up the sideboard options for both decks.

LEDed Ichorid is much faster though, which I really like. One might say I consistently win earlier more consistently than LEDless ichorid. I mulligan about as many hands for having zero land as I do for having too many lands. In the top decking for a land department LEDless ichorid does stand a better chance statistically of seeing one land, but specific number of land really comes down optimization and I don't feel the extra land are optimal for the deck. I have found I have exactly enough lands to play the few spells I do play early on. As for discard outlets, I have enough of them to ensure a discard opening hand. When I first picked up ichorid I never thought "man, certainly could use another 2 discard outlets." I do, and have always, main-decked two careful study to serve as breakthrough-lite. They rarely are used for dredging though, mostly dig two and discard. The other true ichorid players make fun of me for it, and the LEDless players can't claim to dig better if we both switch to top deck mode or willingly drawing. Quite frankly if you're not dredging though both decks are in a bad situation. Then there's Tireless Tribe. Tireless Tribe blocks a goyf, so it has that going for it - but goyfs are a clock at best against ichorid and a "Ah, I see you played goyf - that's a good creature. Good play. My turn? I win," on average.

There are a couple of points I'd like to bring up directly in reference to LED itself, they are as follows:

I'm under the impression some people believe LED is bad because it is sided out game two. Allow me a moment to disagree with this. Many times a tempo thresh will side out daze on the draw. Is this because daze is bad? Of course not. I would say it is flawed logic to state LED is bad because it is sided out. Just because it goes out game two does not mean it is bad.

Another argument I see against LED is "It's only used to power Deep Analysis." To which I reply: that's a narrow use of foresight when playing your deck and understanding its interactions, or "you're ain't usin' it right." More often I would say it is used to power a cephalid coliseum. Then it may also be used to power a breakthrough that you have returned to your hand via eternal witness, heck, I've even used it to play a thug or stinkweed imp having cracked it in response to casting breakthrough and dredging back the same imp. Then there's using it to power a grave-troll through a ghostly prison or even freakin' elephant grass. And lest we forget, oh yeah - it discards your entire hand in a manner that can't be responded to or countered. And naturally we all know the "breakthrough," "crack LED in response," "dredged a stupid amount" play that makes all Ichorid players hated in the format.

One of the major reasons I like Ichorid is that it plays unlike any other deck in the format. It breaks so many rules that other decks play by. It uses its graveyard making it simultaneously easy to hate and difficult to deal with unless you have hate. It doesn't care so much about a hand, and is thusly resilient to discard. It doesn't really care to draw. It needs a very small amount of land to function - if any after turn two. It's the only deck in the format that I'll allow myself to keep a one land hand. It's stupid resilient to control (especially for a combo deck), mostly requiring stifles specifically over all the other counter magic in the format. Even then stifle usually only delays us, rather than stops us. The deck has a lot of cool interactions, and most importantly... Zombies, dude. LEDless quite frankly moves away from the things I like ichorid to do. It begins to play spells, pretends it needs more land, tries to keep a hand, and has some delusion that gravehate doesn't hurt it as much or that LEDed Ichorid just cannot play slow on purpose to get around hate. I can play slow or conservatively on purpose with my deck when the situation dictates it. I can bring every board option I need to play through or around any hate in the format. I'm not sure where this belief that LEDed Ichorid can't do those things comes from.

[TotallySweet]

@ TotallySweet

LEDless dredge can more comfortably sit in draw-mode

Do you mean topdeck mode or DDD mode? Topdeck mode, sure. DDD it's even.

it usually has more mana to play sideboard spells,

It runs -4 LED, +3 land. LED may have 1 land in the SB (this is common). So, post board, you are up 2 mana sources. I don't know that this is a very big deal.

Because Careful Study can allow you to...etc etc etc

Careful Study is a great, great card. This is like the one place I agree with you. Honestly and truth be told, I feel the most important difference between the two decks is 4-of this card right here. Literally all the other differences I see people talk about are either nearly insignificant (LEDless runs 2 more land postboard!), metagame choices (Tribe over Unmask), or arguably worse (Darkblast). Lion's Eye Diamond is not inconsistent. It fuels so many insane plays (and not just deep analysis). It's not like getting rid of it makes the deck better.
Adding Careful Study is the real consistency increase.

By "they" I assume you are referring to the overall decks (not just the sideboards or the ways in which they sideboard).

No, I meant the sideboard. Obviously, sideboards vary from meta to meta and person to person, but the differences I'm seeing is that LEDless runs 2 extra flashback-hate instead of 2 tribe. And for all the high praise sung in this thread about how freeing up slots for awesome SB cards is awesome, the deck fills that hole with one Primus and 2 more Darkblast (why?). Dredging only 3 is bad (hell, I'm never happy to dredge thug, even), -1/-1 (or even -2/-2 if you want to waste a draw step worth of dredge) does squat. The card's effect is bad, and it dredges for tiny bad. I guess you can pull off some super narrow desperate plays like killing your own dude to get a token in response to swords? I guess it's cool that it can discard itself, except ichorid has no real problems getting discard outlets whether it uses LEDs or not.

LEDless dredge prefers consistency and flexibility in game 1. It doesn't win turn 1 and 2 (turn 2 is possible, but highly unlikely)...non-LED dredge de-emphasizes speed and the DR-kill, but the gains in consistency give it roughly similar odds of winning as LED Dredge in game 1 (and, even if you disagree, I think game 1 is usually favorable enough that a small sacrifice would be acceptable)

Our bad matchups are prison decks and other combo, which LED ichorid is better suited to. What we beat is control and aggro, quite handily, pre-board.

You have it wrong. 4 LED and 2 Deep Analysis are "used up space" in the main. I really don't like them in games 2 and 3, and almost always board them out when playing LED Dredge.

Losing LED makes Cephalid Coliseum much worse. It is the use of floating LED mana far, far more than Deep Analysis.

That being said I certainly side out LED in many game 2s as well (sometimes all 4 sometimes less), but 'often siding something out' doesn't mean it 'shouldn't be in the deck at all'. Furthermore, LED ichorid is 'preboarded' as well since it maindecks 3 Unmask. Those 3 unmask, by the way, would be 3x Careful Study otherwise. I use LEDs and Unmasks and Hypnotists because I don't like losing game 1 against my worst matchups with a deck that is supposed to win game 1. If I had the luxury of playing with careful studies and, thereby, being more consistent (without giving up speed since I would still run LEDS) I would. It's the exact build I used to run.

Why not run LED ichorid with Careful Study for the best of both worlds if you aren't afraid of combo?

[BreathWeapon]

Why not run LED ichorid with Careful Study for the best of both worlds if you aren't afraid of combo?

You should, IMO, both the LED Ichorid and LEDless Ichorid camps are "doing it wrong," I've been testing that list I posted and it's putting up numbers. The SB space you gain from pre-boarding Unmask or Tireless Tribe really isn't letting you SB anything really important. Firestorm, Chain of Vapor and Ray of Revelation are pretty much "bleh," because your Zoo match is fine and Leyline of the Void is moot.

Also, I think running more mana in LEDless Ichorid is just bad, if you get 2 mana for Ancient Grudge, great, but you're still discarding Ancient Grudge and casting it for G even if you don't. I've been at 4 Undiscovered Paradise, 3 City of Brass, 4 Cephalid Coliseum and 1 Dakmor Salvage with 0 problems, and with Bloodghast shoe horned into the deck the land slots are really cutting down on the business.

Also, running Bloodghast isn't even debatable IMO, it's just a question of how to fit him in - I've won an amazing amount of games just hard casting him and beating down when they aggressively mull for Crypt.

[TotallySweet]

I wish I could afford to run Study over Unmask, but with half the field in my local meta either Stax or storm combo I'm forced to give up things I like.

I'm still hesitant on the ghast with such an air-tight list as it is, but hey if you're winning then proving me wrong should be profitable for you!

[Spaced Ghost]

You should, IMO, both the LED Ichorid and LEDless Ichorid camps are "doing it wrong," I've been testing that list I posted and it's putting up numbers. The SB space you gain from pre-boarding Unmask or Tireless Tribe really isn't letting you SB anything really important. Firestorm, Chain of Vapor and Ray of Revelation are pretty much "bleh," because your Zoo match is fine and Leyline of the Void is moot.

Also, I think running more mana in LEDless Ichorid is just bad, if you get 2 mana for Ancient Grudge, great, but you're still discarding Ancient Grudge and casting it for G even if you don't. I've been at 4 Undiscovered Paradise, 3 City of Brass, 4 Cephalid Coliseum and 1 Dakmor Salvage with 0 problems, and with Bloodghast shoe horned into the deck the land slots are really cutting down on the business.

Also, running Bloodghast isn't even debatable IMO, it's just a question of how to fit him in - I've won an amazing amount of games just hard casting him and beating down when they aggressively mull for Crypt.

I think Chain of Vapor is a really important board card for both versions. It very nicely fills its role as the "catch all" anti-hate card. In a meta in which you have to guess the hate it can be invaluable. I've been doing well with it against crypts/relics and consequently have thought about dropping pithing needle (which has more uses than just crypt/relic that people seem to forget). Relic is dying down fortunately, I think people have begun to realize it's not quite as good as crypt and many times can't be used the turn it's played. With crypt I've found I can bait my opponent into popping it early by bouncing it. More impressively if you bounced it and can't win on your turn, you can always grab it with a cabal therapy afterward. In fact there are several cards you can deal with in such a way. EOT bounce annoying card, and Cabal Therapy on your turn to get rid of it. I don't think I would get rid of it SB but I can see arguments against other board cards.

I agree the extra mana is suboptimal, and that unmask isn't so amazing maindeck. Unmask, as it's been said by others, is a solid side board or Main Deck choice if your meta calls for it. I really like the careful study main deck for ichorid, but understand the proclivity to running maindeck answers to combo though. We lose to combo in ways that make us look like a bad aggro deck so being able to deal with combo is almost a must in many circumstances.

I'm not willing to debate bloodghast though, that might require another essay and I've already posted one in this thread today. Suffice to say, I don't think he belongs in ichorid. The deck is too tight, and bloodghast practically requires his own shell.

[4eak]

@ Spaced Ghost

LEDed ichorid has just as much ability to slow roll and win slowly as LEDless ichorid.

This isn't true, especially not in game 1. I have no idea why you'd troll for hyperbole when you've committed to returning the favor in the following (above) sentence.

The traditional Tribe/PImp turn 1 play gives much better options for slow and medium speed play. The cards should speak for themselves, but I will elaborate.

LED/DA/Breakthrough are usually 'all-in' cards. LEDless doesn't rely as much upon those, and instead it opts for a higher chance to incrementally dredge through running Tribe/Study. A single counter on your breakthrough or a stifle on CC make life difficult. LEDless has more backup plans and slowed its gameplan for consistency and the ability to absorb disruption more effectively.

LEDless can play anywhere from 1-2 more dredgers. This automatically makes opening hands better, and in some cases, it makes chaining into dredgers more likely (if for some reason you use a draw spell or wish to play a card rather than discard down on end step). Playing more dredgers makes the chance of slow rolling higher.

You will mulligan more often with LED Dredge. This affects the potency of hands in general, but it also makes DDD less appealing in some cases.

You also need to consider how often LEDless will spend mana to play creatures trapped in hand and how that affects Therapy/DR/Bridge effectiveness.

LED Dredge is capable of slow-rolling, but it isn't as good at it as LEDless.

LEDless has more access to plays which are better than DDD and less risky than Breakthrough/LED hands. With more discard effects/chances to draw into land/dredgers, you've got similar odds to activate CC, Careful Study gives you that middle of the road play, and having extra discard/dredge effects makes the slow/middle path quite effective.

More so even, considering LEDless lists tend not to run the Golgari Thug to fit in Darkbad, I mean Darkblast.

I run 1-2 Darkblast (but I tend to run 13 dredgers). They are better than you imply. Some creatures which can be worth Darkblasting, some especially nice to remove before you chance putting all of your bridges into the GY:

• Dark Confidant
• Mogg Fanatic
• Goblin Lackey
• Warren Instigator
• Cursecatcher
• Lavamancer
• Putrid Imp
• BoP/Hierarch/Llanowar on 1st turn
• Meddling Mage
• Gaddock Teeg
• Wild Nacatl (while on the play)
• Qasali Pridemage

No, it isn't perfect. It is quite flexible though. Getting a second dredger into the GY before you breakthrough, creating card advantage, and answering some potent creatures can be useful. Maximizing dredgers is one of the aims of going LEDless, and even if it only said discard this card + Dredge 3, we would want to consider the card. The fact that it can act as removal makes it playable in LEDless.

Firestorm is a good option. I think darkblast is generally better in LEDless because we would prefer a higher dredger count. Both cards will get a dredger into the GY, however, only one card is consistently useful by itself and is useful while in the GY.

I would say the majority of my wins as LEDed Ichorid have involved slow rolling my opponent with tokens/Ichorids. The explosive win is just to make them feel bad.

Sounds like win-more to me.

[LEDless] begins to play spells, pretends it needs more land, tries to keep a hand, and has some delusion that gravehate doesn't hurt it as much or that LEDed Ichorid just cannot play slow on purpose to get around hate.

Quite a rant. So it plays spells. Therapy/DR/Breakthrough/LED/Putrid Imp/DA are all quite subject to permission, and I don't see you complaining about that in LED Dredge. As you said, I think this isn't a real argument about LEDless, it simply shows your personal playstyle preferences, but not necessarily anything about viability.

As for pretending it needs more land, it is a necessary part of a deck that does play more 1cc spells. Try the mana-curve out at 11-12 land in LEDless, it really doesn't work as well. The lands are nice against mana-denial, and having multiples isn't awful when you end up using them for CC, sideboard cards, or hardcasting the Thug/Narco in hand.

And, yes, GY-hate isn't as effective against LEDless. You need to sit down and play with Ancient Grudge with 14-15 lands + 7 discard creatures + 4 Study + 12-13 Dredgers. Artifact-based GY hate isn't as effective against LEDless (that doesn't mean it isn't potent, just not as potent).

We know LEDed Dredge can slowplay, it just doesn't do it as well.


@ TotallySweet

Topdeck mode, sure. DDD it's even.

No, it isn't even. LEDredge will see more mediocre DDD hands, and it will often mulligan, which makes DDD less appealing. Additionally, running more dredgers makes DDD more likely for LEDless (if it preferred to do that), and Careful study (+3 land) makes exploding out of from under DDD-chains more likely and effective (especially against permission).

I don't know that [running more land] is a very big deal.

It all adds up. Especially in a format with Daze/Wasteland.

Land Count: Odds of seeing 1 land on Turn 1, Turn 2, turn 3
11: 78%, 82%, 86%
12: 81%, 85%, 89%
13: 84%, 88%, 91%
14: 86%, 90%, 93%

Land Count: Odds of seeing 2 lands on Turn 1, Turn 2, turn 3
11: 38%, 45%, 53%
12: 43%, 51%, 58%
13: 48%, 56%, 63%
14: 52%, 61%, 68%

Study, of course, only improves these numbers.

Losing LED makes Cephalid Coliseum much worse.

Not by much when you are playing 3-4 land in addition to Coliseum. I think Coliseum has nearly equal value given the higher odds of chaining Dredges together in LEDless (as you have better ways to get those cards into the GY and you run 1-2 more dredgers). There is a difference between when they two decks choose to blow CC. I think the deck could afford to lose some value of CC's activated ability too, as Study does wonderful things in place.

@ LEDredge/LEDless debate

As I've said, LEDredge has the upperhand in combo/stax metagame. I believe LEDless has a small edge against the rest of the field game 1 (consistency, mitigation of disruption, etc.), but even more of an edge games 2 and 3, particularly when you can prepare for a specific metagame.

@ BreathWeapon

Also, I think running more mana in LEDless Ichorid is just bad, if you get 2 mana for Ancient Grudge, great, but you're still discarding Ancient Grudge and casting it for G even if you don't.

Having the chance to Grudge twice in the face of permission has been useful on too many occasions for me to agree. Hardcasting creatures is a real possibility in the face of hate as well.

PImp->Grudge end O-step, play on upkeep is a nice play. But, there is more to the card than that.

Additionally, discarding Ancient Grudge with just 1 land in play has risks. There are situations whereby not having the ability to hardcast Grudge from hand by having 2 lands can limit your ability to answer a Relic/Crypt.

For example:

OT1: Land, Relic
MT1: Land, Study...can't pitch Grudge + Dredger because: tap Relic
OT2: tap relic...

Wasteland, Daze, Force of Will are major concerns, but even cards like Trinisphere and Moon effects make a higher land count more appealing.

Running it out without Therapy first or other options can be faster and makes you happy that you didn't have extra land, but that risk often isn't worth it. Playing with Ancient Grudge with only 1-land in play often requires you to play slower to avoid some of the risks. When playing carefully I don't see as much of a difference in speeds, just more possible gameplans to curb risk and absorb disruption by playing more land.





peace,
4eak

[jimirynk]

Land Count: Odds of seeing 2 lands on Turn 1, Turn 2, turn 3
11: 38%, 45%, 53%
12: 43%, 51%, 58%
13: 48%, 56%, 70%??
14: 52%, 61%, 68%??

[AcidFiend]

I'm torn. I've switched between LED & LEDless a number of times.

Last weekend I took LEDless to a tourney and went 0-4 :(

Part of me thinks I had bad beats and should try again, but the other is like 'you just went 0-4, its time to change versions.'

I lost to two combo decks, a white weenie & Dragon Stompy. In all cases I felt like my deck was very consistant, but at the same time just too slow.

Of 10 players there wasn't a single Force of Will played as well. Perhaps that will change next time, but I'm thinking in my meta I should go for LED..

[TotallySweet]

I lost to two combo decks, a white weenie & Dragon Stompy.

How did the WW match go, if I may ask? I know people don't usually ask for tourney reports from 0-4 but I'm always interested.

In all cases I felt like my deck was very consistant, but at the same time just too slow.

That's basically the deal, in a nutshell. The trick is finding the sweet spot where you're explosive enough to race combo (with the help of our dear friends led, unmask, therapy, and hypnotist), yet still resilient enough to beat aggro and control (prerequisite: being ichorid in the first place). Prison is a crapshoot; if you go first and have unmask, awesome. Otherwise it's time to play musical whack-a-mole with lock pieces.

Be warned, however! I'll qualify my crazy Pro-LED promises: TES and ANT can still curb stomp you like a white boy in a gang fight, you just now have a chance in hell.

You should also, definitely playtest thoroughly against a friend playing combo (warning: this may cause you to lapse into depression, but since you're in a meta filled with prison and faster combo, you might be there already).

Good luck!

[BreathWeapon]

I'm not familiar with Prison in 1.5, but unless it's running a way to eliminate the combat phase (ala Ensnaring Bridge) I can't see what the problem is, because we don't give a flying fuck about Trinisphere or Chalice of the Void. Like, the only instance of Prison I can think of in 1.5 is Eternal Gardens, and that deck is extremely rare.

I think you have to let the combo match up go, if you're playing Ichorid then your playing Ichorid in a Counterbalance Threshold or Tempo Threshold and control environment - let the metagame deal with the deck's weaknesses and exploit the weaknesses of the metagame. Playing Unmask MD is playing incorrectly vs 99% of the field, you have no clue whether or not Unmasking is better than DDDing the majority of the time, and the majority of the time it's just not.

[TotallySweet]

The term Prison I use to describe decks such as:
Geddon, White, Dutch, Tezz, Brown, and all other types of Stax
Dragon Stompy
Solitaire
etc

1.5 stax does:
Wastelock. hurts, but at least we still have LED.
Smokestack. can either nail in the coffin us, or make us laugh and sac one of many tokens.
Chalice. at 0 kinda hurts led, but @1 is pain. Neither turn off breakthrough, though.
Ghostly Prison is gg.
Tabernacle is gg.
Moat is gg.
3sphere does its job perfectly by slowing us down considerably.
Geddon hurts bad, though slightly less for led.

And one random lock piece comes out every turn, forever.


Last thoughts about LED vs LEDless
---

I think you have to let the combo match up go

This may not be ideal, but as a player I do not like to just resign a deck and say, "Well this is a hard matchup so fuck it, ignored, hope I don't face it." And then not SB or build MD with it in mind, and instead strengthen my winning matches. This is perhaps why I'm spending so much time arguing against giving up vs combo and promoting classic ichorid (hope I'm not being too annoying). Partly because I will always, without fail, get paired up vs it because I'm that kinda lucky. If there's a 38 person tournament and 2 TES walk through the door, I've just found my round 1&2 matches. Basically I want my fighting chance; I'll do without a slightly easier time at matches I know are winnable for the opportunity to not just auto-lose the match vs a DTB.

That being said, there is such a thing as impossibility. You would need another entire deck as a 60-card sideboard to consistently beat enchantress.

[jimirynk]

I'm going to the vestal lotus tournament tomorrow and this is the list so far.

Dredgers 11
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

Other 14
2 Dread return
4 Bridge from below
4 Narcomebia
4 Ichorid

DR Target/s 2
1 Reveillark
1 Cephalid sage

Discard 12
4 Cabal therapy
4 Putrid imp
4 Tireless tribe

Discard/gas 8
4 Carefull study
4 Break through

Lands 13
4 City of brass
4 Gemstone mine
3 Cephalid coliseum
2 Undiscovered paradise

Sideboard 15
4 Chain of vapor
4 Ancient grudge
2 Ray of revelation
1 Ancestor’s chosen
4 (Chalice of the void, Leyline of the void, Unmask, Firestorm)

I have a lot of testing with this deck so I know some of the numbers are kind of off.

12 Dredgers, 14 lands and 3 Dread return is the safest numbers.

I can't make up my mind on the last 4 of in my board.

Also if Lark/Sage is the correct Dr targets.

Any intelligent insight on any of this?

[BreathWeapon]

I'd run the 4th Cephalid Coliseum over the 2nd Undiscovered Paradise, and IMO the Dread Return targets are win more, especially when you're trying to fit in Bloodghast at this point.

[TotallySweet]

Can't help but agree with breathweapon, as I made the switch up to 4 CC as well, 'cept I dropped a city of brass for it. Perhaps drop a study for a 3rd DR, as 3 really is optimal (as you mentioned).

As far as SB obviously I don't know your meta, but I would say unmask is the safest choice.
Chalice is just truly lackluster in ichorid in my personal opinion. It kind of hurts combo @0 (depending on their hand), but not consistently enough to warrant including (useless if they don't have a petal or led, and far worse on the draw). And obviously putting it a 1 or 2 is pretty much out of the question.
Leyline does indeed fuck the mirror right good-like. That's a personal call. Do you want to aggressively mull into leyline and gamble that the opponent didn't side hate or do you want to side in 4 chains in case the opponent does this. It's too risky for my tastes, but I wouldn't fault anyone for putting it in.
Unmask I feel is better than chalice vs combo because it can't 'miss' (I guess it can miss if they BS in resp). We've all had the "Discard your Infernal Tutor, go. Them: topdecks infernal tutor, win." so there's that, but finding out what to name with therapy is golden, and it has residual uses versus a wide variety of decks.

Also, yes your DR targets are a tad win-more. Might I suggest 1x FKZ, 1x Sage/Sphinx.

EDIT: never mind, sage or sphinx is by far the better choice over eternal witness in non LED versions.

[sunshine]

EDIT: never mind, sage or sphinx is by far the better choice over eternal witness in non LED versions.

What makes you say that with such conviction?

[SlopeeJ]

I would guess because if you get the Sphinx into play that pretty much means your comboing out and winning.....


jimirynk

My first question would be do you really need the 4 cabal therapy. 4 tribes and 4 imps??? Seems like a lot of discard, maybe cut a tribe or 2 for another dread return and something else??? As far as the DR targets is Reveillark really the gaming winning play you want? Flame Zealot would be a lot better imo unless I'm just missing something with the Reveillark. But swinging with 10+ 3/3 haste zombies is great....

In the sideboard I noticed you have Ancestor’s chosen, which seems good but I love getting the Iona in play. Seems better to me, but gaining major life is awesome so once again I could be missing something.. I would also suggest a wispare for the sb, evoke for 1 is pretty awesome vs leyline and other enchantments

Agreed about the coliseum, that is another way of combing out for zombies and zealot. Def a 4 of

[bum_man]

I'm going to the vestal lotus tournament tomorrow and this is the list so far.

Dredgers 11
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

Other 14
2 Dread return
4 Bridge from below
4 Narcomebia
4 Ichorid

DR Target/s 2
1 Reveillark
1 Cephalid sage

Discard 12
4 Cabal therapy
4 Putrid imp
4 Tireless tribe

Discard/gas 8
4 Carefull study
4 Break through

Lands 13
4 City of brass
4 Gemstone mine
3 Cephalid coliseum
2 Undiscovered paradise

Sideboard 15
4 Chain of vapor
4 Ancient grudge
2 Ray of revelation
1 Ancestor’s chosen
4 (Chalice of the void, Leyline of the void, Unmask, Firestorm)

I have a lot of testing with this deck so I know some of the numbers are kind of off.

12 Dredgers, 14 lands and 3 Dread return is the safest numbers.

I can't make up my mind on the last 4 of in my board.

Also if Lark/Sage is the correct Dr targets.

Any intelligent insight on any of this?

we play practically the same main board except for -1 ichorid, -1 breakthrough, -1 tireless tribe for +1 Dread Return, +1 FKZ +1 Coliseum.

I prefer having the 4th Coliseum over the 4th breakthrough because its a land and it's slightly less risky to play than breakthrough. I play only 3 Ichorids because I often try to combo-kill with FKZ as much as I can, plus I never liked winning through waves and waves of Ichorid beats. Sage and Lark are good, both become better with FKZ along with them.

As for the last 4 slots? I'd probably go for 2 Sadistic Hypnotists for match-ups against anything blue, and probably 2 firestorms for good measure against creature based decks (although i doubt that you'll side them in often.)

[4eak]

One of the fun (and powerful) aspects of Dredge is that explosive Breakthrough/CC/DA/Study play which can often just win the game for you on the spot. Some of the argument between shooting for consistency and explosiveness revolves around the value and probability of the explosive plays that can be made by Chain dredging through multiple draws. And, of course, there is more to the combo than the ability to Chain dredgers together; however, I do consider chaining dredgers together to be the primary catalyst to rest of the combo.

I always wonder how likely those explosive plays are to occur. How relevant are they? What helps maximize the chances of those plays? I end up asking, "How many dredgers do I need?" and "Which dredgers are worth running?". Also, how much does my choice of discard effects impact the ability to Chain dredge? Should I keep a hand just because I can DDD, Land->Breakthrough? On which Dredgers would such a play be acceptable? etc.

A lot of people do not think it is worth running the lower end dredgers (Loam/Darkblast/Dakmor Salvage) because they think these cards just don't add enough to the dredging power and consistency of the deck. I wanted to briefly explore those considerations in addition to seeing how the raw quantity of Dredgers impact our ability to Chain Dredge.

Now, obviously, I can't answer those questions perfectly. I do like to test though, and sometimes I like to look at numbers. I had some time in the car on the way to the zoo today, and while thinking about chaining dredgers together I decided to write a program. The gist of the program is this:

For a million instances--
Draw a hand of 8 (I lazily chose 8, and I accept the implications of it)
If any Dredgers in hand, discard a specific maximum (e.g. DDD, you therapy yourself, you PImp a bunch, you LED your hand, or you Study 2, whatever.)
Attempt to Dredge (Draw) X number of times (e.g. DA, Study, CC, Break) -- I always used the best Dredger in the GY for each draw/dredge.
Observe how many times you can chain-dredger before you ran out of dredgers in GY (if you did at all)

I want to know where, when, and why I will succeed and fail with a draw effect given the number of dredgers in the deck and my ability to put those dredgers into the GY.

Now, I only ran a million per test because I didn't want to let the program run for a week doing some insane number of iterations. The differences in the "0 Dredges" rows should show you some of that deviation. Also, if you want to think of this in percentages, you can insert the decimal place mentally; 176192/1000000 = 17.6192%.

I condensed a bunch of tables simply because I didn't want to spam. I think it makes comparisons easier too.

The first row = Quantity of Dredges Possible (Did I have a Dredger in the GY? If yes, continue dredging. Capped at 4 for Breakthrough). Each consecutive Dredge is chained to the next. Obviously, this all happens in one series of draws, and thus has a limited scope of information for us to consider.

Rows 2 through 4 show the maximum number of Dredgers that could be discarded (you didn't always draw the maximum number of dredgers that could be discarded). Each Row is its own test. So if you added the dredges from Row 1, they should equal a million instances (the same for row 2, and the 'no limit'). In total, there are 12 tests presented in the below tables.

11 (3x Thugs)
X Dredges = 1, 2, No limit
0 Dredges = 176192, 176582, 176080
1 Dredges = 277098, 119977, 120853
2 Dredges = 126180, 108668, 86695
3 Dredges = 78147, 80574, 67467
4 Dredges = 342383, 514199, 548905

12 (4x Thugs)
X Dredges = 1, 2, No limit
0 Dredges = 147591, 147797, 147510
1 Dredges = 258034, 101211, 101724
2 Dredges = 118012, 93901, 72921
3 Dredges = 72183, 69719, 55532
4 Dredges = 404180, 587372, 622313

13 (4x Thugs, 1 Darkblast)
X Dredges = 1, 2, No limit
0 Dredges = 122925, 123043, 123147
1 Dredges = 240895, 87223, 87638
2 Dredges = 111860, 82746, 62329
3 Dredges = 67574, 61757, 47488
4 Dredges = 456746, 645231, 679398

14 (4x Thugs, 2 Darkblast)
X Dredges = 1, 2, No limit
0 Dredges = 102626, 102085, 102495
1 Dredges = 222242, 74806, 74462
2 Dredges = 104217, 72204, 53165
3 Dredges = 62850, 53389, 39901
4 Dredges = 508065, 697516, 729977

If anyone wants to make a pretty graph or re-arrange the data for ease of analysis, I'd be happy to replace it.

The above tables should give you an idea of the impact of running a certain number of dredgers and the significance of being able to discard more than 1 card on the ability to chain dredge. 0 Dredges means you didn't draw a dredger. 4 Dredges means you were able to chain an entire breakthrough. For a card like DA/Study, obviously if you could chain 4 dredges together, then you could chain 2; so add up 2, 3, and 4 Dredges to get the number out of million of successfully chained dredges for the maximum quantity of draw effects from DA/Study.

Far from perfect data, but still useful. Moving from 1 Dredger to 2 or more Dredgers in the GY before a serious draw effect is relevant. Having more Dredgers in the deck as whole is also quite relevant when chaining them together. Darkblast had some impact too.

Of course, we aren't always going for the big explosive plays in Dredge.dec. I slow-roll a whole bunch. The exercise helped me consider the value of pursuing explosive strategies (often at the expense of slower but more consistent strats). The catch-22 of lowering your dredge count and major discard effects for the sake of explosive bombs is that you also directly lower your ability to consistently chain dredge from those drawing bombs.





peace,
4eak