Originally Posted by AngryTroll
Undiscovered Paradise has some anti-synergy with Cephalid Coliseum, but generally it's not "game breaking" because resolving Cephalid Coliseum on T3 is about as good as resolving it on T2 vs Zoo.
The BG version is between the LED version and the Tribe version in explosiveness, and I haven't noticed a significant loss in consistency when compared with the Tribe Version. Generally, where the BG version shines is post-board, because it just churns thru' Crypt like a champ.
@Frogboy
Yeah, I meant specifically all rainbow colored lands do is play Pimp and Tribe, of course the density of lands is relevant for playing Breakthrough and Careful Study. Like I said, something has to give, and in a deck that doesn't need a land drop to win I'd rather that be lands.
If you playing unmask its -4 tireless tribe +4 unmask, don't cut black cards when boarding in unmask.
Though seize opens you to broader sb options but I never side out dredgers/ichorids g2/3 you have to have as much cards to help you recover after a crypt/relic/trap.
In my experience, not a lot really. It depends on what match-up you are against whether you may choose to play protecting a Coliseum or Paradise. But more often than not, I play my Paradise as the 2nd land when activating a breakthrough leaving one card in hand. This usually happens in game 1s where recurring bloodghasts are not that much an important factor. Often, you notice, that you could've gone off a turn earlier, this is something you encounter game 1s most of the time, so, more often than not, this won't be significant in the game.
I have tried piloting both the bloodghast and tribe versions (I don't really get this since my ghast list also has tribes @_@). The consistency is actually fairly the same. Game 1s both decks could still win at fairly the same speed. In terms of consistency, game 2s make all the difference. bloodghasts make the deck's aggro game plan even more solid especially when you give-up the speed of breakthrough against blue. Having recurrable creatures at your disposal, you can also return a target more consistently (big factor against zoo and goblins).
In explosiveness, bloodghasts make the deck better. They are 3-4 more creatures that you can use to return into a very favorable position in the match. In most cases, they speed-up the kill for almost a turn. Even without the combo, dredging into ghasts help you get the win faster. Countless times, I've won out of nowhere when my ghasts give me the last 2-6 damage that I needed to win then, rather than the following turn. They significantly increase the decks resilience, by adding explosiveness in terms of swaying the match in your favor.
One of the most glaring differences you could notice is the mulligans. Hands become more brutal with bloodghasts, but I think this isn't a very common occurrence since the deck innately is mulligans worse than most decks.
Why so serious?
Absolutely, there's no way I'd run Ghasts without Tribes. I meant on a spectrum between the more explosive LEDredge and the more consistent LED-less (Tribe) Dredge.
Is Bloodghast (in addition to Ichorid and Moeba) better in an LEDredge build, or a Tribe build? I have lots of questions about Ghast, but very few answers.
InfoNinjas
First of all I never played Dredge on a tournament thus I´m unexperienced.
I want to try this list:
// Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
// Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
3 Ichorid
4 Bloodghast
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
3 Narcomoeba
// Spells
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
// Sideboard
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Unmask
2 Firestorm
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
My intention: stability over speed.
Possible changing : -Breakthrough, -Tireless Tribe, -Dakmore Salvage + 3 Careful Study
I´m not a big fan of Study, in nearly every situation (I grant you that there were not many) I would prefer a permanent Discard Outlet. I would play 4 Tireless Tribe, but I´m not sure that the manabase can handle this.
Any thoughts?
You shoul'd cut one Ioona for another Thug and change Sphinx to Cheplaid Sage. Because you play four Unmask in the sideboard there for you need additional cards to remove, and the sage is better with Ghast and Dakmor Salvage.My intention: stability over speed.
Possible changing : -Breakthrough, -Tireless Tribe, -Dakmore Salvage + 3 Careful Study
I´m not a big fan of Study, in nearly every situation (I grant you that there were not many
Any thoughts?
Edit: For the sideboard -1 Grudge and -1 Ray, and +2 Firestorm if your meta is filled up with Zoo or aggro decks for that matter.
In theory, Bloodghast is the same in LED Dredge as it is in LEDless Dredge, because Bloodghast matters the most game 2 and thus LED Dredge and LEDless Dredge are more or less the same because LED Dredge has boarded out its LEDs for Tribes at that point.
I've been to a tournament today. 6 rounds, it didn't went that well.
After a powerful start of 3-0 I scrub out doing 3-3. If I did 4-2, I would have pass to top 8 because I had good tiebreakers. I had lots of bad dredges and lots of bad match ups. Here is how it went :
1st Round : 43 lands deck.
G1 :I just hoped that I could explode. I put Pimp, start dredging and he puts a tabernacle. I manage to reaniate 2 ichorids, and do dreadreturn for 21 damage.
G2: He puts an early tabernacle while I have tireless tribe... He wastes my land so I have none. He has 2 exploration, life from the loam and a tabernacle, a mishra it doesn't look good. At upkeep he always doesn't pay for my his mishra to remove my bridges. I manage to start a beat down with ichorid. He has two maze of ith and I only have 3 ichorids. So I wait a bit and he is at 5 life. He decides to retrace for a 5/5 flying but no more mana for mishra. I dredge into Narco + bridge. I sac Narco, Ichorid, Ichorid for flamekin so I attack with 3 tokens, 1 flamekin and 1 ichorid FTW.
2nd Round : Merfolk
G1 : I know that this guy doesn't have a lot of experience in Legacy, so I'm confident even though it's a bad MU. Game 1, T1 PIMP get countered, Turn 2 tribe get countered, and finally at my turn 4 careful study passes, and I do a breakthrough after it and I won.
G2 : He gets 2 important counters, relic and another relic got me.
G3: He put T2 relic with only 1 mana, I dredge into ancient grudge and kill it. In my first 20 cards I got 4 Narco, 2 Grudges, 3 Bridges. First time in like 100 games that I dredge like a pro.
3rd Round : RB Goblins
G1 I have tireless tribe and stall the whole board, I dredge and he removes my bridges with goblins warring (or however we write it:P). I dredge into some narco and DR IONA naming red FTW.
G2 : I put Pimp I think and win again with DR IONA.
4th Round : Merfolk, a good friend of mine
G1 : It sucks playing agaisnt a team mate, especially when there is only 2 people in your team, including yourself... I know that I can't win this one, he is playing 2 Jitte MD and 2 echoing truth MD. Game 1 I therapy his jitte, he puts cursecatcher and has daze + force + wasteland. I scoop.
G2 : I manage to put PIMP in play. He then has jitte. I have 6 tokens + narco so I name echoing in truth with Cabal, he reveals 3 merfolk sovereigns, I therapy them. It's pretty funny. He top deck echoing truth 2 turns later and seal the game with a lord, cursecatcher, jitte and silvergil adept.
5th round : BGW NO the rock style deck
1st : I mull to 5, I have a weak hand. He races me with Hierarch, 2x quasali and tarmogoyf.
2nd round : I put Pimp and start doing some damage, he decides to extirpate my cabal therapy because I had 3 in my yard. He plays Natural order on progenitals I get him down to low life he attacks me for 10, 1 more attack and I'm dead but he is facing letal with Ichorid next turn. He topdeck extirpate and removes my ichorid.... That hurts.
6th round : RB Goblins with Pierre-Marc (Enigma on the source)
1st : A freaking weird game I mull to 4 he mulls to 5. I have Gemstone, Careful study, Golgari thug and something else. I find a land and therapy. The next turn I dredged for 4, dredged a narco, PIMP and a therapy. I put Golgari thug, sac narco for therapy, sac thug for therapy, return PIMP on the top. Next turn I draw pimp and after I overwhelm him with PIMP, Narco and ichorid beatdown.
2nd : Mull to 6, put tireless tribe and he has Crypt. I don't find anything decent in my dredge and he removes my yard and my dredgers. I'm now in top deck mode and see my whole playset of city of brass.
3rd : Here was my biggest mistake of the tournament, and maybe the only one. Bad mulliganing decision. I decide for some reason to keep a hand of 6 cards with : Therapy, City of brass, Cephalid coliseum, firestorm, firestorm, Ichorid. He mulligans to four. I open with therapy on crypt. He reveals me Wasteland, rishadan port, land, Earwig Squad. He wastes, I draw real junk for some turn. He then puts Frogtosser Banneret and next turn he uses Earwig Squad. It was game. He's a really nice opponent, but the last game was really lame.
And here was my sideboard :
1xCareful Study
3xFirestorm
1xChain of Vapor
4xGrudge
1xAncestor's chosen
4xUnmask
1xSadistic Hypnotist
Hope you liked the report.
I'm considering doing -1 Grudge and removing firestorms.
-Team Laval !-
Raptor - nice report, sucks you kept that last hand. The problem I have with this deck is how/what to SB out. I've never used Firestorms but obviously you weren't happy with them - why not and what will you change them for that you can use?
I never had any problems g2/g3 with sideboard.
I always board in the good cards and I never had a hate that was unexpected of my part. If you want some more help on how to SB, I'm prettysure I could give you decent advices and some players here could as well.
-4 Breakthrough, +1 Study, +3 Grudge what was I did most of the time. Then I often SB out 2 Tribes + Golgari thug for 3 firestorms but the only times that I've seen the firestorms, I was dead anyway and they were not that good. Throwing your hand to run into hate is not fun, nor is not having the mana for it.
I might probally run Llawan, Cephalid Empress, in one of the slot.
THe last time I sided in chain of vapor was months ago, so they could probally go.
BEcause of my metagame, I might do to my sideboard :
-3x Firestorm
-1x Chain of vapor
-1x Ancient Grudge
+1x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
+2x Ray of Revelation
+2x Y tech vs aggro that I don't know yet :(
-Team Laval !-
Blazing Archon? Another Ancestor's Chosen?
Nice report, btw.
Was this even a real Skeggi's hero?Lol. You're my hero.
The problem is that I've failed to DR anything versus these deck.
Versus merfolk, I didn't have the time to dredge into something relevant.
Versus goblins, Earwig Squad got my DR out if I was soon able to dread return or my DR targets.
Although, Blazing archon is definitly something that I will try.
-Team Laval !-
Problem with Archon is that he always eats Swords, Echoing Truth, PoE, doulbe burn, etc.
Otoh: Truth@Archon = noTruth@Zombies.
But one they get rid of him, they can start to press again, so maybe the Chosen is better as he (most of the time) makes his job once even if he leaves battlefield.
Was this even a real Skeggi's hero?Lol. You're my hero
I used Firestorm in a Merfolk/Gobbo-field last week, and I was very happy with it all day, doing everything from noncounterable discard to sweeping to finishing my opponent off. I was lucky to have it in hand a lot perhaps, but strange to see someone having the exact opposite results from the same card in a similar field.
Well this thread is pretty divided in that some board out all breakthroughs, while others swear to keep them in for explosiveness. The other point of contention is when to bring in new DR targets, and when to drop the DR's + targets altogether. This probably hinges a lot on whether its game 2 or 3.
Anti-Dredge hate is so diverse with tormods, relic, trap, creatures-that-sacrifice, Gaddock Teeg, you risk both boarding in the wrong thing and/or diluting your deck so much you just dredge into junk. I know this was the reason ages ago some lists played Gargadon; to increase your threats as opposed to trying to out-tech the tech.
All this makes for one of the more complicated Legacy decks to board for IMO.
Can anyone give me feedback on the below:
ANT: +4 Unmask, - 3 Tireless Tribe, -1 Eternal Witness
Merfolk: +3 Firestorm, +3 Ancient Grudge, -4 Breakthrough, -1 FKZ, -1 DR
Goblins: +3 Firestorm, +3 Ancient Grudge, +1 Ancestor's Chosen, -4 Breakthrough, -1 FKZ, -1 Witness, -1 DR
Aggro Loam: I have no idea because half the lists run Leyline and the other half don't.
Are there any reason you play witness over the sphinx or Iona, they both seems better then witness in a non LED list.
Maindeck I run FKZ + Iona, so it's pretty rare that I side out DR because I want Iona online, it's almost an autoscoop vs goblins and merfolk.
I might have not like firestorm yesterday because I could never cast them in time. I played agaisnt 6 decks out of the 6 playing wasteland, so it was really hard casting it. Plus, you need to be careful when throwing your hand to not be steamrolled by a relic.
-Team Laval !-
I would have thought Merfolk & Goblins would be affected by Iona to a lesser extent than other decks. I know it would slow them down, but at least they have Lackey (if it was in play) & Vial to get around it.
How easy is it to cast DR in the face of graveyard hate? Assume they have a crypt or relic. You might be able to trigger a dredge, flipping a Grudge and blowing their hate. Next you need to dredge into DR + Iona, cast a Cabal Therapy or 2 (against Merfolk, else they counter DR), and still have three creatures in play. Getting around Cursecatcher, Wasteland, Daze, Spell Pierce, Echoing Truth (they can bounce dudes in response to you flipping DR), FoW seems like an uphill battle just to make sure they don't cast further counters. Board out DR and the only spells you'll actually 'cast' are Cabal & Grudge.
Maybe this is a case of testing the matchup more. If you've cast DR post-board against Merfolk a good number of times, please give me tips hehe :)
Else I think board I'll try boarding out the DR/BT package, adding Grudge & Firestorm. You can use Firestorm as an uncounterable discard of one/two dredges/grudge; I wasn't suggesting you 'throw your hand'.
Also FYI I was testing Witness because of certain synergies I felt it'd be a better partner to FKZ. If you have a land in play it can net you more cards than Sphinx (return Coliseum/Breakthrough), else return a land to cast anything in hand / recur Bloodghasts. My goal was to cast a lethal FKZ asap, and I felt Witness would allow this more often than Iona. If this proves sub-par, I'd probably go with the controlling Hypnotist & Iona combination.
The problem with firestorm is almost the same as DR, but on top of it you need lands to cast it and are more vunerable to cursecatcher wasteland and daze. You can't really cast it threw hate and it's pretty vunerable to it.
Echoing Truth (they can bounce dudes in response to you flipping DR)
Hmmm, they can't cast it in responce to you flipping DR, except if Narco's trigger is on the stack. I just want to be sure on the rule, do you pass priority after the draw, or do you go to main phase without letting your opponent having priority ?
Also, I have another important ruling question. If I have tribe in play and I play breakthrough. I then ask my opponent if it passes, he says that it passes. Do I have the right to discard a dredger, or I should have done before asking him if it passes?
-Team Laval !-
Discarding cards is part of Firestorms cost; the whole point is an unpreventable discard outlet. Whether or not it resolves and kills dudes is a secondary concern.
I'd like to hear someone else answer the other two rules questions you had, tho I believe you can still discard to Tribe before Breakthrough resolves.
you pass priority after your draw (and after each phase)I just want to be sure on the rule, do you pass priority after the draw, or do you go to main phase without letting your opponent having priority ?
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