View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #22481
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    It's a pretty simple argument, with precedent, to ban Lurrus because it is going in everything: both Mental Misstep and Survival of the Fittest were banned not solely on power level but also on ubiquity. If you played green, you had to play Survival to compete, and Survival was tier 0. Mental Misstep was in every deck, almost literally (not exactly sure on the saturation levels, it was a while ago.)

    TL,DR - If a card goes in anything and everything, and those decks are tier 1, Mental Misstep and Survival of the Fittest tell us that it will be banned.
    Well, I wasn't making a case against banning it, of course. Only pointing out that, to me, this isn't a "worst-case" of needing a ban. Just a bad-case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    WOTC employs a ton of former pro players, many of them Legacy players. It is unlikely these snuck through without at least a warning about power level.

    EDIT: 'These' meaning Underworld Breach, W6, and Lurrus.
    Well, I agree, but knowledge and caring can be world apart. In fact, (I think it was) Barook already posted the article, from Wizards themselves, where they explicitly stated that a companion-like mechanic was horribly broken. So, what changed? I don't think it is knowledge...
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  2. #22482
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    TL,DR - If a card goes in anything and everything, and those decks are tier 1, Mental Misstep and Survival of the Fittest tell us that it will be banned.
    who's gonna say it

  3. #22483
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watersaw View Post
    who's gonna say it
    *laughs in Brainstorm*

  4. #22484

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watersaw View Post
    who's gonna say it
    I wanted too but the card in question was protected by a Twitter post from Aaron Forsythe.
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  5. #22485
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Well, I wasn't making a case against banning it, of course. Only pointing out that, to me, this isn't a "worst-case" of needing a ban. Just a bad-case.
    Absolutely, I wasn't trying to be contentious. I just think WOTC has more culpability; they didn't release these as an honest mistake.

    Former Player Employee: 'He guyz, we gotz something that does CaRazY stuff with LeD'.

    WOTC: Annnnd...you're fired. Don't harsh on my big money buzz, buddy.


    Well, I agree, but knowledge and caring can be world apart. In fact, (I think it was) Barook already posted the article, from Wizards themselves, where they explicitly stated that a companion-like mechanic was horribly broken. So, what changed? I don't think it is knowledge...
    I am convinced of this as well. Gotta get those dollar bills, y'all.

    Anyways, sorry if I came across as abrasive. Cheers!
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  6. #22486
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    *laughs in Brainstorm*
    If Brainstorm had never existed and they printed it yesterday, this argument would have more validity, to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Anyways, sorry if I came across as abrasive. Cheers!
    Not at all, I was just trying to clarify my position.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  7. #22487

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Well, I agree, but knowledge and caring can be world apart. In fact, (I think it was) Barook already posted the article, from Wizards themselves, where they explicitly stated that a companion-like mechanic was horribly broken. So, what changed? I don't think it is knowledge...
    Even if we set Legacy aside, the release of Companions is a bad sign in general. I get that Wizards needs to constantly churn out exciting shit to sell sets, but new mechanics make me nervous, especially when they're even slightly comparable to Yu-Gi-Oh (and Companion is sort of like a super restrictive 1-card extra deck if you really think about it).

    Printing overpowered nonsense like W&6 is one thing but its still leagues better than printing overpowered mechanics.

  8. #22488

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Hellyes the Slayer 1R{w/g}
    Legendary Creature — Horror Assassin 2/3
    Companion: your starting deck has at least 18 blue instants and sorceries
    You may cast nonblue instants and sorceries you own from outside the game.
    {1}{X}, {T}: Create a token that’s a copy of a permanent card with converted mana cost X that is banned in Legacy.

    Just being silly. Anyway, there was no way to anticipate how good Lurrus would be in Eternal, where cheap permanents tend not to be competitive and card advantage isn’t an issue.

  9. #22489

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    Hellyes the Slayer 1R{w/g}
    Legendary Creature — Horror Assassin 2/3
    Companion: your starting deck has at least 18 blue instants and sorceries
    You may cast nonblue instants and sorceries you own from outside the game.
    {1}{X}, {T}: Create a token that’s a copy of a permanent card with converted mana cost X that is banned in Legacy.
    Dies to bolt, too weak. Make it 2/4

  10. #22490

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sella View Post
    Dies to bolt, too weak. Make it 2/4
    “Hellyes the Slayer can’t leave the battlefield if an opponent has cast a spell this turn.”
    Edit: nvm that’s maybe too good in Limited.

  11. #22491

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    Hellyes the Slayer 1R{w/g}
    Legendary Creature — Horror Assassin 2/3
    Companion: your starting deck has at least 18 blue instants and sorceries
    You may cast nonblue instants and sorceries you own from outside the game.
    {1}{X}, {T}: Create a token that’s a copy of a permanent card with converted mana cost X that is banned in Legacy.

    Just being silly. Anyway, there was no way to anticipate how good Lurrus would be in Eternal, where cheap permanents tend not to be competitive and card advantage isn’t an issue.
    Needs less tap symbol, not nearly broken enough.

  12. #22492
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sella View Post
    Dies to bolt, too weak. Make it 2/4
    Obviously it should be X/X+1, where X is the number of card types in your graveyard.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  13. #22493
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sella View Post
    Even if we set Legacy aside, the release of Companions is a bad sign in general. I get that Wizards needs to constantly churn out exciting shit to sell sets, but new mechanics make me nervous, especially when they're even slightly comparable to Yu-Gi-Oh (and Companion is sort of like a super restrictive 1-card extra deck if you really think about it).

    Printing overpowered nonsense like W&6 is one thing but its still leagues better than printing overpowered mechanics.
    Well, I pretty much agree. The issue is the velocity now is just so break-neck that there is no way, I think, to keep the release pace and always have well-designed cards.

    But, that is the paradigm, because you can't contract the number of new set/releases now, since you WotC is answerable to Hasbro and Hasbro is answerable to Wall Street. So, it's hyper-expansion or death, if you aren't growing, you are dying, as far as shareholders care. Frankly, I think all of this is a terrible long-term strategy, but what passes as a long-term strategy is probably just a few short-term ones stapled together.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  14. #22494
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Cerberus, Underworld Champion 1R
    Legendary Creature - Zombie Hound
    Companion - Your starting deck must contain no more than 8 creatures.
    Whenever a player casts a spell, ~ becomes an enchantment, then sacrifice it at the beginning of the next end step.
    3: You may cast target spell from your graveyard. This ability has Delve.
    0/4

    Seems like a fair card. Not even playable in Limited!

  15. #22495
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Mod note: let's try to keep silly card creation to the thread made for that please.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  16. #22496

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Obviously it should be X/X+1, where X is the number of card types in your graveyard.
    I'll compromise and accept X/X+4

  17. #22497

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Well, I pretty much agree. The issue is the velocity now is just so break-neck that there is no way, I think, to keep the release pace and always have well-designed cards.

    But, that is the paradigm, because you can't contract the number of new set/releases now, since you WotC is answerable to Hasbro and Hasbro is answerable to Wall Street. So, it's hyper-expansion or death, if you aren't growing, you are dying, as far as shareholders care. Frankly, I think all of this is a terrible long-term strategy, but what passes as a long-term strategy is probably just a few short-term ones stapled together.
    Honestly makes me hope that they can pivot hard into Arena, then they could just release their dumb shit there and keep it out of paper maybe. Although I guess that wouldn't work since they'd want people to buy their favorite Arena cards in paper. Oh well.

    All we need is just one dedicated guy at WoTC who can look over new cards and preemptively ban the stuff that's obviously broken. I don't play standard so I personally don't care how much dumb shit they shove in there, but it's annoying when something busted gets printed and then we have to wait X amount of months for WoTC to do something about it for like, 3 sets in a row.

  18. #22498
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  19. #22499

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    So far:

    Innovation
    41.9%
    Balance
    58.1%

    Interesting comment, with a lot of people agreeing with it:

    While I do believe in prioritization for certain things, the way that this question is posed is that it is a trade-off. I don't really believe in this trade off - they are on different axes.

    And the ubiquitous maro answer to problems:

    Come on, Ben. I know you know that balancing something with no precedent is harder than balancing something we’ve done five times before.

    Which lead to the obvious answer:

    I don't think it's that hard to see that starting with 8 cards is absolutely a problem.

  20. #22500
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmlima View Post
    So far:

    Innovation
    41.9%
    Balance
    58.1%

    Interesting comment, with a lot of people agreeing with it:

    While I do believe in prioritization for certain things, the way that this question is posed is that it is a trade-off. I don't really believe in this trade off - they are on different axes.

    And the ubiquitous maro answer to problems:

    Come on, Ben. I know you know that balancing something with no precedent is harder than balancing something we’ve done five times before.

    Which lead to the obvious answer:

    I don't think it's that hard to see that starting with 8 cards is absolutely a problem.
    Has anybody the link at hand from the WotC article from 2015 (?) where they tried something similiar and described exactly the problems that companion has now?

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