Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 86

Thread: Song of Creation Storm

  1. #61
    Member
    Lemon's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2019
    Location

    USA
    Posts

    91

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    I finally got an opportunity to test this deck out. I ran a little bit of an outdated version that wasn't running the Riddlesmith combo and really felt like that was a big problem. I played against Elves and Grixis Delver. In the Elves match up I noticed that the times I lost I either A) didn't draw a Song, or B) was about to go off next turn. None of our games lasted past turn 4. In the Grixis match up I think I made a mistake sideboarding as I ended up decking myself trying to find Burning Wish. A few take-aways:

    - Carpet of Flowers is REALLY good against fair blue decks.
    - If Song resolves, storm count doesn't really matter.
    - I found myself preferring Ponder\Preordain while comboing, and was more than not pitching Brainstorm to FoW
    - I never found myself fetching Taiga, and almost always needed blue for more cantrips.

    I did a little tuning afterwards and this is the list I came up with. I still want to squeeze in 2-3 Chain of Vapor, but haven't decided what to cut to do so. I think Chain would really help the deck as it can pick up your 0cc drops, enemy Thalias, or Song if you might deck yourself. I think that Echo of Eons is a good MD card as it allows you to recycle your graveyard once you've gone through it once already, plus it ups our "threat" count as (in my goldfishing) you seemed to have a pretty good chance to find another Echo or to find Song. This list probably also wants the 4th Veil of Summer.


    3 Misty Rainforest
    3 Scalding Tarn
    3 Prismatic Vista
    2 Island
    1 Mountain
    1 Forest
    1 Volcanic Island
    2 Tropical Island
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Mox Opal
    3 Chrome Mox
    2 Defense Grid
    4 Song of Creation
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Preordain
    3 Veil of Summer
    2 Burning Wish
    3 Echo of Eons


    Sideboard

    2+ Carpet of Flowers
    1 Grapeshot
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Echo of Eons

  2. #62
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    2,151

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Glad you got to test it out!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemon View Post
    - I found myself preferring Ponder\Preordain while comboing, and was more than not pitching Brainstorm to FoW
    Without stack tricks I go for Preordain before Ponder because it's better at filtering out lands in the top cards. Ponder can dig deeper, but if you see 1 0cc and 2 duds then you're forced to keep the 2 duds on top.

    During the combo I use Brainstorm in three main situations:
    1) as an instant, to respond to other draw triggers (e.g. to stack a bunch of draws then pop LED for mana)
    2) with a fetch, to put back 2 unwanted cards (Song gives 2nd land drop)
    3) to hide a card on top so I can pop LEDs for mana, draw into it, and cast it with that mana

    The stack tricks with LED+Brainstorm go a long way to solving mana bottlenecks and mitigating risk from unlucky draws.


    - I never found myself fetching Taiga, and almost always needed blue for more cantrips.
    Good point. I never use Taiga unless there's nothing else to fetch.


    I think that Echo of Eons is a good MD card as it allows you to recycle your graveyard once you've gone through it once already, plus it ups our "threat" count as (in my goldfishing)
    No question that Echo improves goldfishing. I've been on the fence about how it performs vs interactive opponents.

    The risk seems worth it in the explosive builds (T1-T2), but I don't know about the Xerox build. You have to discard your hand to LED before putting Echo on the stack... If it doesn't resolve, you basically lose the game. If it does, they get a full grip of disruption to fight through. It's a very all-in plan for a build that tries to be grindier. Counters like FoW are weak with Echo, while shields like Defense Grid and Hope of Ghirapur are better. Echo's also safer on T1 or T2, when they haven't had time to deploy their initial hand and don't have mana open to cast spells with the new 7. The longer the game goes, the more opponent can use those extra cards.


    2 Burning Wish
    Maybe this is why you're concerned about decking.

    I strongly recommend going to 3-4 Wish:
    -During the combo, more Wishes means you don't have to dig so deep to win
    -During the combo, extra Wishes function as decking protection: Wish for Echo to put back your graveyard (useful if you need a big Grapeshot)
    -Postboard Wish is very strong against permanent-based hate (Chalice, Defeaning Silence, hatebears, etc)
    -Pre-combo, Wish functions as copies of Echo to draw you into gas
    -Wish offers plan B of Empty the Warrens when you don't draw Song. I've even cast natural Tendrils for lethal without any engine.

    Once I started abusing Burning Wish more, the deck didn't feel short on gas.

  3. #63

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Ran another 50 matches or so with the deck and feel like I'm getting closer to the optimal 75. Took it to a 4-3 finish at the last Challenge, with 1 of the losses being to a regrettable misplay.

    Challenge List: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/visual/3150803

    As much as I loved Teferi and Entomb, I feel like the addition of White and Black spells is a bit too greedy on an already stretched manabase. Veil of Summer largely fills the same role as Teferi, and the fact that it only costs 1 cmc is super relevant as well. Also the times when you lead with Veil, to pave the way for an LED/Echo sequence puts you very far ahead to win, since you can Echo into Song without worrying that they find FoW of the Draw 7. Early testing with it is feeling really really good. The downsides are that we'd need to cut chalice, which actually might be for the best because we really want our Wishboard to be as low CMC as possible, so now 1-drops like Carpet of Flowers, Chain Lightning, and Void Snare are all back on the menu. I also cut an Ovalchase Daredevil because you really only ever want to see 1, and that's been feeling like the right number.

    I'd like to find room for 1 more Tormod's Crypt if possible. But other than that, I think we're getting very, very close.

  4. #64
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    2,151

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Cutting down to 3 colors seems more stable.

    Should the Blazing Volley be Pyroclasm? Volley is easier on the mana, but it only answers narrower things (Thalia, Revoker, Elves, tokens). Pyroclasm kills hate pieces like Collector Ouphe, Gaddock Teeg, and Eidolon of the Great Revel.

    Defense Grid is a version of Teferi that's easier on the mana and synergizes with the artifact engine. It's been very strong in all my games. It protects Echo, making the draw 7 very strong. Unlike Veil you can cast it the turn before to spread out mana. Veil+Song needs 1RUGG in one turn, which can be much harder against mana denial strategies.

    Hope of Ghirapur is another SB option. Like Grid, it lets you spend the mana on a previous turn and it protects you under Echo. They can't cast the new spells on your turn, or even on their turn! Hope also combos with Emry to lock them out of noncreature spells. (They can use instant creature removal, but counterspells, sorceries, enchantments, artifacts and planeswalkers are locked out). It's also an artifact.

    Keep in mind Veil still leaves you open to some relevant interaction from their new 7 cards. Stuff like Red Elemental Blast on resolved Song, Lightning Bolt on Riddlesmith, Nature's Claim/Force of Vigor/Disenchant on Song, Terminus on Riddlesmiths, etc. Grid and Hope just lock out everything.

    What were your wins and losses in the Challenge? That might help guide what the SB needs.

  5. #65

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Cutting down to 3 colors seems more stable.

    Should the Blazing Volley be Pyroclasm? Volley is easier on the mana, but it only answers narrower things (Thalia, Revoker, Elves, tokens). Pyroclasm kills hate pieces like Collector Ouphe, Gaddock Teeg, and Eidolon of the Great Revel.
    Volley actually started as Pyroclasm, but I hit a few situations where I couldn't resolve the 2 cmc spell. You're right that it might be a bit too narrow. I'm probably biased towards this card because I once cleared 2 revokers and a thalia with it, wiped an elves players board another time, and cleared an unflipped delver, Young Pyromancer and 6 tokens that were threatening lethal all in one go. But I think you're correct that any creature removal in the board should be able to handle at least a 2 toughness creature. I think I'm going to give Forked Bolt a shot since it can hit two things, can clear ouphe, and can pressure a Narset or Karn as well if needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Defense Grid is a version of Teferi that's easier on the mana and synergizes with the artifact engine. It's been very strong in all my games. It protects Echo, making the draw 7 very strong. Unlike Veil you can cast it the turn before to spread out mana. Veil+Song needs 1RUGG in one turn, which can be much harder against mana denial strategies.
    I love DG, and agree that it's a totally reasonable card to play. With all the Oko running around, it might not be positioned as well as it used to be, but it's definitely very powerful and worth keeping in the back pocket if the meta moves away from Elks a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Hope of Ghirapur is another SB option. Like Grid, it lets you spend the mana on a previous turn and it protects you under Echo. They can't cast the new spells on your turn, or even on their turn! Hope also combos with Emry to lock them out of noncreature spells. (They can use instant creature removal, but counterspells, sorceries, enchantments, artifacts and planeswalkers are locked out). It's also an artifact.

    Keep in mind Veil still leaves you open to some relevant interaction from their new 7 cards. Stuff like Red Elemental Blast on resolved Song, Lightning Bolt on Riddlesmith, Nature's Claim/Force of Vigor/Disenchant on Song, Terminus on Riddlesmiths, etc. Grid and Hope just lock out everything.
    Great call, I had actually forgotten about Hope. I love the interaction with Emry, and like that it gives an additional metalcraft boost to Opal and Riddlesmith. I worry that it's a bit more narrow than Veil, but gonna run a league with this and see how it feels.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    What were your wins and losses in the Challenge? That might help guide what the SB needs.
    [/QUOTE]
    Looks like Delver and Reanimator need some help. I'm currently 3:6 against RUG delver and 0-2 against Reanimator since the time I started tracking.

  6. #66

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Empty the Warrens maybe?

  7. #67
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    2,151

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiFunn View Post
    Looks like Delver and Reanimator need some help. I'm currently 3:6 against RUG delver and 0-2 against Reanimator since the time I started tracking.

    Empty the Warrens maybe?
    Yeah I strongly recommend at least 1 Empty in the board.

    My builds were tweaked to have ~50% matchups against Delver. Probably at the expense of other matchups, but that's one matchup I have grinded dozens of games.

    My explosive build (Echo, Gamble, Rite) does it by leaning on the Empty plan. Empty turns Burning Wish into a wincon without an engine. That turns every Song, every Echo, and every Wish into a must-counter. You can try to just overload their disruption. I push the Empty plan one step further by running 4 Empty the Warrens SB, then boarding in +3 Empty vs decks like Delver. That makes it 14 win buttons (Song, Echo, Wish, Empty), with some immune to FoW! It's an old trick from TES. The drawback is it eats up SB space. You may not need the full 4 Empty. Even 1 should be an improvement.

    My slower build does it with FoW+Veil+Grid, a higher land count, cantrips, and Carpet of Flowers postboard. It plays a different gameplan of maintaining resource parity and trading with their disruption. That's less relevant to your deck.

  8. #68

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Ok cool, I'll try it out and see how it feels. Meanwhile, a couple updates: Finally got the 5-0 trophy! Hilariously, I accidentally submitted an experimental list I was toying with that had 4x Chalice in the SB along with a bunch of 1-drops and 2x Veil in the main. Surprisingly, Chalice never actually prevented me from resolving any spells. Even so, I don't think it's the optimal build but it shows how much raw potential the concept has.

    Also, got another 2 losses to Reanimator, making my tracked record 0-4 I think the maverick / dnt matchup has gotten good enough to where I can shave Forked Bolt, since we're still covering Ouphe etc with 2x abrade, 1x Chain Lightning, and 1x Void Snare. Going to try swapping it out for another Tormod's Crypt in the SB, and I actually think the 5th bauble in the Main can be 1x Crypt as well. Seems odd to have crypt main, but there's enough decks out there that use the gy that I think it could actually increase our percentage against the field, more than it would decrease our percentage in games that the 5th bauble would have otherwise won. Will test it out and report back. For now, here's the most current list I'm on:


    3 Echo of Eons
    4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Burning Wish
    4 Mishra's Bauble
    3 Narset, Parter of Veils
    4 Seat of the Synod
    4 Riddlesmith
    4 Lotus Petal
    1 Ovalchase Daredevil
    3 Chrome Mox
    2 Scalding Tarn
    2 Veil of Summer
    4 Song of Creation
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Taiga
    2 Volcanic Island
    4 Misty Rainforest
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    4 Mox Opal



    1 Shattering Spree
    2 Carpet of Flowers
    1 Grapeshot
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Reverent Silence
    1 Void Snare
    1 Echo of Eons
    2 Abrade
    1 Veil of Summer
    3 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Chain Lightning

  9. #69

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Just realized we could potentially Burning Wish for Reanimate LOL. It wouldn't save us from Entomb lines, but it would work off of Faithless and natural discard. This seems like it's worth testing for sure.

  10. #70
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    2,151

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Lol the 1-of Reanimate might be worth it. You can also use it to Wish for Riddlesmith (Reanimate a dead Riddlesmith).

    Is Surgical Extraction or Noxious Revival better than the 3rd Crypt? I'm not convinced Crypt is that good against BR Reanimator. They can do too much at instant speed or by winning die rolls. Surgical is good in other matchups too. Noxious can be used to recycle dead pieces in fair matches, or to troll their reanimation. Both are "free" spells for Song.

  11. #71

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Lol the 1-of Reanimate might be worth it. You can also use it to Wish for Riddlesmith (Reanimate a dead Riddlesmith).

    Is Surgical Extraction or Noxious Revival better than the 3rd Crypt? I'm not convinced Crypt is that good against BR Reanimator. They can do too much at instant speed or by winning die rolls. Surgical is good in other matchups too. Noxious can be used to recycle dead pieces in fair matches, or to troll their reanimation. Both are "free" spells for Song.
    Noxious Revival is such a good idea! I'd never thought about that interaction with Reanimator before. Going to try that out as the 1x main, and maybe 1x side as well. Surgical is super strong as well. I prioritized crypt because of all the artifact synergy.

    Deck continues to feel super solid. Just picked up another 4-1, narrowly missing the trophy in match 5 against Esper Vial. They were super close fun games, and the match definitely could have gone either way.

  12. #72

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Ugh. Just lost match 1 game 3 of the challenge today to Delver because of the Underground Sea. Was R short of casting shattering spree on Null rod. Think we got too cute there with Reanimate. Going to revert back to temur and swap the reanimate for Dwell on the Past, which basically serves the same function.

  13. #73
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    2,151

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Didn't realize you were adding USea for the SB trick instead of just casting it off mana rocks. 4 colors is much weaker against mana denial decks like RUG Delver, yeah.

    Do you even need a Wish target for BR Reanimator? They go off very fast. How often will a 3 mana line (Wish into 1 cmc target off lands) be relevant? Either you'll need earlier interaction, or you should just go for the throat and try to win. If it's midgame and you want to Wish for something to disrupt their graveyard, just get Echo of Eons. Dwell seems too weak to justify a spot.

    How was Noxious Revival?

  14. #74

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Didn't realize you were adding USea for the SB trick instead of just casting it off mana rocks. 4 colors is much weaker against mana denial decks like RUG Delver, yeah.

    Do you even need a Wish target for BR Reanimator? They go off very fast. How often will a 3 mana line (Wish into 1 cmc target off lands) be relevant? Either you'll need earlier interaction, or you should just go for the throat and try to win. If it's midgame and you want to Wish for something to disrupt their graveyard, just get Echo of Eons. Dwell seems too weak to justify a spot.

    How was Noxious Revival?
    So, the exact situation that came up vs reanimator was this:

    - I have 2 fetches and a chrome mox. I play a fetch and pass.
    - They faithless on the draw, pitching griselbrand and pass.
    - I play my 2nd fetch, but have no source of black despite having ramp enough to Wish + Reanimate :(

    You're right though that we can't stretch into a 4th color. Every fetchland matters; our manabase needs to be flawless.

    TBH I couldn't figure out what to cut for the Noxious Revival. I don't want to drop below 20 artifacts to make sure Opal + Emery hit as much as possible, and every other card in the main feels critical. We could potentially try it instead of 3x surgicals in the SB, but I worry it won't be as impactful as Surgical, since they could potentially just flash back faithless and go off the following turn. Just need to get games in with both, I guess.

  15. #75
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    2,151

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    If you had Lotus Petal or Mox Opal, Reanimate is castable without USea. If you had Lion's Eye Diamond then you can Wish for Echo (which gets rid of his graveyard too).

    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiFunn View Post
    So, the exact situation that came up vs reanimator was this:

    - I have 2 fetches and a chrome mox. I play a fetch and pass.
    - They faithless on the draw, pitching griselbrand and pass.
    - I play my 2nd fetch, but have no source of black despite having ramp enough to Wish + Reanimate :(
    In that exact scenario Reanimate is ideal and you'd need a fetchable black to cast it, but I think that's just playing too much into a corner case. Overall having the consistent manabase is more valuable.

    Good luck in your next games.

  16. #76

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    How do the games against reanimator play out? I get that you lose if they are on the play and 'goes off' t1, but other than that?

  17. #77
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    2,151

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by JosefK View Post
    How do the games against reanimator play out? I get that you lose if they are on the play and 'goes off' t1, but other than that?
    Losing T1 on the play is somewhat mitigated by switching from Crypt to Surgical. @Samurai: how have your games been since the switch?

    Otherwise it must be similar to TES or any other non-FoW combo deck vs Reanimator. The match is unfavorable because they're more explosive. They can outdraw you and strip your hand. But sometimes you get a good enough hand to race, and sometimes you can Echo them into garbage.

    Empty lines seem weak. On the other hand, they incur so much lifeloss that natural Tendrils/Grapeshot are viable lines of play. This makes me wonder if we should forget Reanimate and just save Wish hoping to mise a win after they go down to 6. They won't always hit enough Unmasks. For example, LED + Petal/Mox + Burning Wish (off 2 lands) into Tendrils is 8 damage on turn 2. You can also pre-emptively fire a non-lethal Tendrils just to shut off Reanimate or deny them a Griselbrand draw 7. That could be enough tempo to race. If you can make them stumble a few turns, we just need to resolve Song or Narset-Echo lock them to go nuts.

  18. #78

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    The riddlesmith deck had a really good reanimator matchup (one of it's best matchups), so i'm a bit surprised. But that deck had multiple bouncespells and the play of gamble for karakas after BR put an Iona on blue, so that might be the difference.
    If you look at the history of it i started with 2 crypt 2 faerie macabre 1 silent gravestone but the longer i played it the more i cut graveyard hate as it just was not needed.

    Karakas was a very good card in that deck as an answer to Thalia, teeg, and big monsters. But i do think it's a bit to random without any way to tutor for it, even if it has kind of nice emry interaction.

  19. #79

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by JosefK View Post
    The riddlesmith deck had a really good reanimator matchup (one of it's best matchups), so i'm a bit surprised. But that deck had multiple bouncespells and the play of gamble for karakas after BR put an Iona on blue, so that might be the difference.
    If you look at the history of it i started with 2 crypt 2 faerie macabre 1 silent gravestone but the longer i played it the more i cut graveyard hate as it just was not needed.

    Karakas was a very good card in that deck as an answer to Thalia, teeg, and big monsters. But i do think it's a bit to random without any way to tutor for it, even if it has kind of nice emry interaction.
    You're the original creator of the Riddlestorm deck? That's super cool, I've always loved RS but you're the first person I ever saw pair it with Ovalchase Daredevil. Thank you for the idea! It really adds a lot to the song of creation deck.

  20. #80

    Re: Song of Creation Storm

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Losing T1 on the play is somewhat mitigated by switching from Crypt to Surgical. @Samurai: how have your games been since the switch?
    I got a bit distracted by the Vintage Cube and didn't have a chance to test it out yet

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)