hello enchantress community! I've started playing enchantress about 1yr ago or so very occasionally when my lgs was running legacy (usually once a month). I was doing quite well in the aggro heavy meta. In a couple of weeks my lgs is going to be running a sizable legacy event and I was thinking about showing up with enchantress.
I know that there is going to be at least 1 pox deck and several combo variants ANT and T.E.S mostly if I remember right. My question is what is our best defense against those vile combo decks?? Also I only have 3 sanctums sadly is that enough to run the emrakul win con?
honestly i havent tested enough to know percentages against the field.Originally Posted by waSP
ahh good point.
Abrupt Decay is also very common and hits a lot of your core enchantments (Presence, Elephant Grass, Guile, Wild Growth effects, etc.). I wouldn't skimp on the tutoring, especially when it synergizes with Replenish. I'd drop Vexing Shusher for City of Solitude and Witness for Argivian Find or a third Replenish or a Ground Seal. I don't see a reason to use creatures out of the board to kill noncreature permanents when there are enchantments that do the job just as well and fuel both your engine and your kill. dont
All that being said, I haven't played the deck, so I have no idea how it stacks up against any of the other forms of Enchantress.
I can't comment on Freggle's build, but I can say that you have ways of beating combo at your disposal. Leyline of Sanctity and Solitary Confinement are excellent for stalling because of the player shroud, but most opponents have bounce or straight up removal for them, so keeping Grove up is important. Pox is especially vulnerable to Leyline as well because they rely heavily on targeted discard alongside the Pox effects, and Liliana's most threatening abilities are also targeted. Once you get a stall card in place against combo it will usually buy you anywhere from 0 to 3 turns, so it helps to be running the RIP-Helm kill or Emrakul so you can win quickly and don't have to durdle making Pegasi/Angels/activating Words of War.
And again, congrats on your finish Freggle! I'll try to put in a strong showing in C-bus (although I'm currently torn between playing Enchantress and playing a Delver deck).
Well, I encourage you to keep collecting the pieces. Enchantress and all it's variants can reward you. ...and your right I did everything in my power to push the curve as low as possible to make it as explosive as possible and to "break" Sanctum to beyond unfair.LOL...Thanks for the reply. I'm eager to read your report, whenever you are able to post it!
Although I have never really played with the deck, I consider myself an "enthusiast" on it, since I really love the deck's style/flavor.
In fact, I'm slowly acquiring the staples to build the deck and be able to play it, and to a really moderate budget like mine, it's really motivating to see your Moat-less list do well.
Talking about Wild Growths... Your list looks more designed to concentrate on the lower curve. It seems interesting, and I could see the effects of it on the video of your match against Death and Taxes (I think it was Round 6). Boy, that opposing Thalia sure did some damage to the deck's speed, and it was a relief that you could draw all those green 1CC enchantments to help recover your mana, draw cards to maintain your Confinement, and be able to win your G2...
Sincerely,
- André
The goal is to stick 2 enchantress's and combo off over the next 1-3 turns drawing the deck and choosing the better win based on the disruption you see. Karakas could have possibly done me a lot of good in tempo vs Death and Taxes so I may go back up to 2. Even if it's wastelanded that one turn of development should be enough especially if I had stuck the two enchantress's already. Virtually the whole G1 if not the whole game 1 I had the combo in hand, I just couldn't break out of the tempo loss of Thalia, but like the commentators said that was a textbook game by D&T and I was satisfied with how I fought through the disruption aside from clearly declaring my draw trigger sat the end although it wasn't relevant to the game as I looked at the cards I missed post game.
Moat is good, but simply outclassed in Enchantress by Sphere of Safety as it stops all the fliers that plague Legacy today.
Thank you for the list sun tzu. There is a lot of interesting things happening in this list that I will certainly tinker around with.
btm10 already hit the basics, but I would include Stony Silence in the mix. The main way both TES and ANT win are through the Lions Eye Diamond / Infernal Tutor combo. If you cut them off of both Lions Eye Diamond and Petal they have to cantrip into bounce, or win through Rituals both of which is not easy. Especially if you start the game with Leyline. Most lists of ANT or TES only have 1 to 2 Chain of Vapor in the board so finding it through can tripping is a tall order.
I would also play with a full set of Green Sun's and Gaddock in the board. This way you can very likely keep the hate coming every turn and out numbering there ability to bounce it. Gaddock Turns off Ad Nauseam, and the wins Tendrils and Empty the Warrens.
It is also worth noting that RIP stops the Past in Flames line to use their chain of vapor twice.
All those items combined give you a decent chance to beat those decks.
Pox Player shroud is the name of the game again. Again the 4 GSZ will allow you to stay ahead of the edicts and out draw their game plan. RIP stops most of their wins.
Yes 3 sanctums is enough to run Emrakul, but you would be better off with the full 4. If you have Exploration you can experiment with that. I was testing it and it does make the deck even more explosive (and might be decent tech against D&T) I would consider cutting the Abundant Growths to do so, but Abundant is deceptively VERY good.
Thank you. btm10, I'm not sure how well you know whichever Delver variant you are considering running, but you seem to know you way around Enchantress, and it is not a bad deck right now. You will choose what you will choose, but like I said in Orlando I was the only person I know of that registered with Argothians, although a good handful of Enchantress players came up to talk over the day about how they like the list. There is a general misconception that Enchantress is a bad deck in this meta, and it is my opinion that it is simply untrue.
The fact that you have 1 person out of 200+ rocking an Archetype it makes it hard for it to get on peoples radar as a DTB as that is actually a list of decks that are popular. i.e. the more people that run them the higher the stats are they will be in the top 8. Keep that in mind when you are making this decision. What you should really ask yourself is what do you belive in more your ability to pilot delver, or your ability to pilot Enchantress?
Honestly, if they are equal I would go as far as to say Enchantress in the hands of a skilled player is likely the better choice right now, as many people don't know what you are doing, or simply do not have the tools to fight it.
Edit: Someone (Darers) just 3-1'ed the daily yesterday with Enchantress. When more people rock it the numbers will show.
Thanks for the incentive!
Since I'm used to playing Glimpse of Nature and drawing a bunch of Elves, switch to playing an Argothian Enchantress and drawing a bunch of Wild Growths seems appealing to me.
And also, it happens that I have always kept my lone Serra's Sanctum in my collection, since I had opened it in the Urza's Saga set. Time to save money to complete my playset now...
I think the bolded part became evident on the mentioned Round 6 of yours against Death & Taxes, on the several times that your opponent struggled with his Phyrexian Revoker in hand, trying to decide what to name with it. The commentators remarked it many times.
Sincerely,
- André
Hi Freggle
First : congrats for your result.
I am a casual legacy player and i usually play an old version of enchantress (the toolbox one). But next month there will be a legacy GP in Paris and i want to play another version of the deck. I took a look to the list above and i have some questions :
1- why don't you play sterling grove?
2- How do you play with attunement? Do you realy need 4 of them?
3- is it a good idea to play 1 vexing shusher (and may be 1 more GSZ) ?
4- What about elephant grass? I think it's a good card on early game but without any tutor you probably never draw it at the good time...
5- why carpet of flowers are best than city of solitude on side against control?
6- Do you think this unusual version could be a good choice for a GP or should i better play the more common RIP/Helm version?
thank you
Thank you, but 44th isn’t exactly impressive.
1 – Sterling Grove has (3) functions. Providing shroud to all other Enchantments and tutoring, and maintaining an enchantment count.
• The Shroud – In the Attunement version I originally had them in the main, but I found that with 2-3 main Replenish you really don’t care if someone uses spot removal on any of your enchantments. The main reason I even toyed with this build was for Attunement, and unless there is some card preventing it like City of Solitude you can always return it to your hand to loot before it is destroyed. So in minimal testing this deck really didn’t need the shroud. Additionally, most things that target enchantments are non-creatures, and Dovescape give the enchantments pseudo shroud.
• The Tutor – Using Sterling Grove as a tutor is really inefficient at (3) mana, and given the drawing / looting that this build did the tutor wasn’t needed. It was better to make the draw engine more sound to improve the overall resiliency to the deck.
• The Enchantment Count - Given that the first two abilities were not found to be essential you could replace Sterling Grove with another enchantment and still keep the count so long as the other abilities printed on the enchantments were deemed more necessary.
2 – Attunement – You use probe to see if you have to worry about grave hate and you loot the high casting cost enchantments to the yard and set-up a fatty Replenish. Don’t forget that you can discard Attunement to itself and Replenish it back for more free looting into more Replenish.
3 – Shusher & GSZ – I tested Shusher in the RIP build and frankly it sucks. There is too much tempo loss, and it dies to removal. The 4th GSZ is likely good.
4 – Elephant Grass – This list was more of a basis sketch that had a minimal amount of testing. More Elephant Grasses may be okay as long as you don’t stifle your progression. Using Attunement / Replenish goes over the top of many strategies really quickly, and you don’t want to stifle that but tapping for the Cumulative Upkeep too much.
5 – City vs. Carpet – Tempo, tempo, tempo. To use City correctly you would play it before you resolve any enchantress effects if it resolves and stay in play your clear. If they have any counter it then it didn’t do any good. With Carpet you can cast it Turn 2 out of the reach of daze and Pierce (so long you hit your growth effect) and use it the same turn post combat. Then you play your first enchantress effect if it resolves you are way ahead. If it doesn’t then you got the counter. This is where running 12 Effects is pretty important because next turn you are way ahead of the mana race, and there is a decent chance that you can present 2 e effects that following turn. It is unlikely Control can keep up, and then you over run with mana advantage. Playing with City you would untap and cast your E effect and maybe luck out or maybe not.
There is also a direct correlation to the main plan to beat control. …that being resolving Emrakul.
Then there also the fact that City turns off your Attunement on your opponents turn and Sterling (if your playing it) that doesn’t seem too good either.
I have had S&T player pobe and see no threats in hand and good for the Show and Tell. I responded by returning 2 Attunements and finding an Emrakul, and I got to untap first.
6 – I really don’t know the answer to that the list you quoted is relatively untested, but if I had to guess (as I was faced with this for the SCG Orlando) I would lean on RIP Helm as many people are high on Grave hate right now. Now it is true that Ground Seal stops a lot of the popular stuff, but you do have decks like Jund depths running the Crop Rotation / Bojuka Bog plan, so it seems somewhat risky. …but Probe would be able to tell you when it safe to go broken if all is well, but sometimes yo do try for it blind. (FYI there is also a play where you can return Attunement to discard Emrakul bofore their bog trigger resolves to suffle your yard back in.) If you were to run the Attunement I would test it thoroughly, and tune it to your play style. I would be willing to help, as it is very fun to pilot.
Freggle thanks for your advice! I was able to get a 4th sanctum and hopefully it will get to me in time... I have a couple of explorations and think I will give those a look. I will post my list sometime this weekend when I get retooled.
Awesome! Keep me posted. I'd love to see your take on it.
So...what about Spirit of the Labyrinth?
Pretty good hate vs Enchantress.
Yes. It's obviously good. Some answers that come to mind however are:
Words of War
Oblivion Ring
Parallax Wave
Dread of Night
Seal of Primordium
Seal of Cleansing
Aura of Silence...
...or GSZ for Trygon Predator
...but I'm sure there are more, and there might be better ones. It'll just take a slight re-tool to fight the new hot card.
I'm ok with you, but i have test the deck with a friend this WE and i died few times due to an abrupt decay (or Oblivion Ring) targeting my solitary confinement before a big rush. And Abrupt decay is played on many deck, so the shroud effect of Grove is more important than ever... Futhermore, it works well with replenish! So i will test with Grove during the week and i tell you what i think about it!
I'm still caring about the use of attunement. the first goal for the deck is to get 1 (or 2) enchantress effect. So on turn 1 you probably use a growth effect (i also add 1 dryad arbor MD to be sure that i could have 3 mana on turn 2). Then on turn 2 you want to play an enchantress effect. And as soon as possible you want to lock the game with solitary confinement. How attunement could be useful to reach this goal? You told me to "loot the high casting cost enchantments to the yard and set-up a fatty Replenish" but we don't play high casting cost enchantments (just 1 dovescape and 1 sphere of safety). So why should i discard solitary or enchantress presence (3CC) instead of hard cast them? Attunement gives no advantage the turn he is played, so, if you play it on turn 3 or 4 it's a big loose of tempo and if you play it on late game, you don't have to list 4 of them in your MD!
During my tests i never knew when to play it correctly!
I'am ok with you, Shusher is only good with dovescape in play but it's overkill...
I rather thought to complety remove it from the MD and perhaps add 1 more sphere of safety on this slot...
ok you convinced me on this point!
Honestly i'm not a good player and i mainly want to play for fun. So I will probably play a "homemade version". I just want to avoid a 0-3 drop ;-)
This week I will also try Telepathy instead of Probe...
(sorry for my English)
Immolation, good old answer for Meddling Mage and such comes in handy here.
Would you still draw cards (out of enchantress' effects) if you cast Immolation on Spirit of the Labyrinth?
Thinking about triggers and stuff I think so, but still not sure...
"Want all, lose all."
When you cast Immolation with Enchantress in play the stack looks as follows:
==top==
Draw a card
Immolation
==bottom==
So the draw would resolve before Immolation and you can't draw a card.
I wonder if this will replace Phyrexian Revoker in Death & Taxes? Maybe in their sideboard. I'm sort of hoping it will.
hey freggle are you sure the attunement plan is worth it? it seems like it would be more suited to an all-in graveyard based plan (with AT LEAST 3 replenish). against decks that can easily disrupt your enchantress abilities in play, i have found attunement to be a 'clump' in the plan, if you will. i can definitely see how it has potential, but im not sure its a strong enough 'base' card if that makes sense. as a card advantage engine it seems like win-more because if you have your enchantress effects in play its good and you are drawing cards anyways, and if you dont have them in play then it doesnt actually net you cards unless you end up resolving a timely replenish (which can be hard and easily countered or disrupted by removal, graveyard hate, etc.).
do you think its worth it? im not even sure splashing into blue is worth it to be honest. it seems like it would just make more inconsistencies and put a stronger need for nonbasics in a deck where you want a lot of basics mainboard.
how has 2 GSZ been for you? every time ive started an enchantress list i always start with
4 enchantress
4 gsz
4 enchantress's pres
is going less than that on enchantress effects worth it to up your enchantment count? i feel like 12 'effective' enchantress effects is important. i really wish there were more, like going up to 13+ enchantress effects, to be honest.
too much GSZ makes teh deck much worse later in the game. You really only need 1 usually to fetch the first Enchantress (or maybe the Dryad Arbor t1). Subsequent topdecks of GSZ are dead or take too much time and mana in setting up(without drawing a card like Presence).
The Attunement version is fun, but not better (or worse) as the RIP-Helm combo. It plays more for a lock, less for a win. Maybe combine with the Words of Wind to use blue better? Definitly scale up on the exterme stuff though, otherwise the payoff is too small with Replenish (just getting more draw with Attunements and more Presence doesn't help).
i think 4 green sun's zenith is worth it. think of it this way: we have an enchantress 'engine' effectively. if our opponents are able to especially hinder our enchantress gameplan with things like discard, sacrifice effects (which gsz for 0 gets dryad arbor to protect), abrupt decay, etc. we will have a hard time doing much of anything on our turns. if you dont start with the foundation of an early enchantress effect and sustain it you are much more likely to lose, especially against cards that can 'clock' you fast.
even when you draw them late in the game, it will be very rare that you will not be able to hit an argothian enchantress with it. if you've seen all 4 enchantress and the game still isnt G_G in your favor something has gone horribly wrong. if you hit critical mass of this enchantress effect you should be winning shortly thereafter, or at least have an easy pathway to winning.
with the attunement plan, i wonder if its viable with the opalescence + parallax wave combo and like 3+ replenish. that way you can make really good use of the attunement discard and draw effects with a combo that is assembled by resolving 1 replenish. this used to be a deck back in the day and it might just be viable again.
right now im trying to test opalescence + parallax wave more, with a RIP + helm combo sb (boarding out the replenish and gy based strategies when you expect hate).
Current list is looking like :
Creatures: 5
4 argothian enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Spells 2
2 Green Sun's Zenth
Enchantments 31
3 Rest in Peace
2 Mirri's Guile
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Exploration
4 Elephant Grass
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Sphere of Safety
Artifacts 2
2 Helm of Obedience
Lands 20
1 Karakas
4 Serra's Sanctum
2 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
8 Forest
The sb is still in the making but have some ideas, meta is looking like a lot of combo. Some reanimater, pox, affinity, burn/rdw, Shardless BUG, and some delver variants for sure. That's about all I know about the meta... Let me know what you think. I put the leyline main to hopefully help give game 1 vs burn, pox, and combo a better shot.
Last edited by domajm32; 01-22-2014 at 05:50 PM.
have you guys seen perplexing chimera from the new set? it looks so awesome!
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...0&d=1390428378
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