Nah don't :D At least it's more fun to read than 20 decklists on each page. It was a bit on the short side (I dunno about any of you guys but I like the random shit that people tend to put in there) but then again you can't have it all, congratz anyway.
Hello friend.
I asked a legitimate question, and I think that your buildup (won a mox this weekend!) made us think you'd plowed through 6+ rounds of swiss.Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Don't stop posting reports. They all help out :)
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
I played a tournament as well recently using more or less the last list from Konsultant.
I went 4-1-1 into top8 and split the finals.
My issue is the following:
Although in the beginning (like a lot of people) I was a fan of extirpate I soon found it to be a very bad card. But since I needed some extra gy hatred I included them in the sideboard as a 2-of (together with 2 relics). Despite my doubts they were amazing.
Extirpate won me the semi's against enchantress (on replenish) which is a very bad match-up otherwise.
I think that the meta in the past was prepared for extirpate (with burning wish and other answers running rampant) but that there is a distinct possibility of winning games in (at least my) metagame.
Has anyone tested this recently in a non-wish landstill build? What was the conclusion?
A second issue:
although I pack 3 wrath of god, 4 engineered plague (side) and 2 disk to combat tribal decks I found myself in deep trouble against goblins.
Are there additional tools that can be recommended? I see a distinct possibility for humility since both builds had no acces to green and thus no answer. Although I feel since a lot of decks pack green for krosan grip there is probably not enough room in the SB for it?
Any thoughts on that?
For reference my SB
4 plague
2 extirpate
3 orim's chant
1 crucible of worlds
2 ajani gold-mane
1 pulse of the fields
2 relic of progenitus
I chose extirpate to combat combo as well by the way.
Ajani feels better then alternatives against zoo/burn but three is too many thus 1 pulse. I was expecting a lot of zoo/burn and so 3 slots seemed warranted. (In the end I encountered none)
Crucible is quite random but allows me in very long games against decks with wastelock to build up enough mana.
The one match I lost was against RBG homebrew (demigod of revenge did me in). I ended up beating it in a very close match in the quarters...
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch.
Did you really get offended over what was posted? That's not even offensive by real life standards, no matter internet standards.
I guess Joel doesn't understand that 4 rounds plus split to top 4 for a mox sapphire is pretty retarded in terms of east coast standards.
Co-Founder of Team Awesome - I heard Randy Buehler say a while back that good players give themselves the most number of turns to find the answer.
The Source on MTGO - Predator8785 and RockOut
I actually reverted to Konsultant's 61 a while back, which I can pilot a lot better, imo. Top-still (mossivo1986's) list was great to play when I added CB in the SB, but for some reason I never had the success I wanted with it. The main thing I loved about that deck was the ET toolbox... kinda miss that but hey, what can you do?
I think 3 Path to Exile is pretty crucial in the SB for Goblins (and aggro in general, all agree?), as increasing your chances of drawing a 1cc removal spell to answer a Lackey is huge if you can't Force (or are holding Force back for something else). How was running 4 Plague? I think 3 was an okay number for me. The last time I ran Konsultant's 61, I played at a shop my friends and I go to br/tri-weekly.
Started 1-2, losing to Mono-Red Goblins in g3 (Elspeth final'ed 1/1 Soldiers staring down a horde of goblins, and then a SGC hits the board. Next card was FoW.). I ask about the Plagues because that's the game where I had 3 and didn't see any. I didn't let Lackey get damage in, however, with StP/PtE/EE.
I also lost to Doomsday combo, which brings me to your Chants in the SB. I am thinking about trying those out against Combo the next time we play. Can always get the guy to go below 10 with Factories/DoJ, just not anymore. Could be good as a response to their own Chants. I wound up ending that night 1-3, scooping to my friend with Enchantress so he could play in T4. That said, we still played it out, and to comment on what you said: from playing against my friend and looking at most lists, I see what? 2? 3 Replenishes? If you save your counters for Replenishes, City of Solitude, and let EE take care of the 2cc cards like Argothian Enchantress, Sterling Grove (gives shroud...), you should be in good shape. I'm not saying it was favorable, but I think I had pretty good board position the whole time through. Postboard, -4 StP -3 Standstill, +2 Spell Snare +3 Negate +2 Relic of Progenitus suited the deck a lot better.
<Took out the part of the GY, add later> I will say though, I think you need +1 CoW, and take out the Ajani's. I haven't played with them in a long time.
The SB I ran that night was:
Pretty generic, I have yet to try out Preacher against Merfolk (reasons (1) I've been ripped on MOTL for trying to get them, and (2) I haven't seen Merfolk in a while) though.Code:2 Spell Snare 3 Negate 3 EP 2 Crucible of Worlds 2 Relic of Progenitus 3 Path to Exile
I wont its just aggrivating to have everyone talk shit about a prize and not look at how solid the list was/ performance etc.
Great job on the results Moss!
Its been nice but I'm still undecided. Its great against Storm, discard in the early game, and helps a ton in counterwars, and even burn sometimes. After all that though, the meta might just be too aggro heavy at the moment but more testing is needed.
4c landstill is on the paper the best deck, but the manabase is often shaky.
I would like to discuss sideboard's and the connected strategy.
Sideboard:
1. How was the balance in your experience? Can u give some more details (read your comment in the report).Code:For ref. Mossivo's sb 1 path 1 pulse 1 extirpate 1 e tutor 1 Beb 1 ray of distortion 4 counterbalance 4 EP 1 cow
2. 4 EP seems a lot. Is it just a meta game call?
I think balance in the board is the right way to go. On the other hand most decks (with G) will bring in their grips for their spot removal anyway.Code:My current sb 2 path 1 e tutor 2 beb 4 balance 2 EP 1 pulse 2 extirpate 1 return to dust
What is with the lack of gy removal? I just cutted it - god damn ichorid, screw you!
Sideboarding
The most games will be played after boarding; so the strategy seems to be important.
I always know what I want to see in game 2, but I often dont know what to take out.
So have a look on the matchups.
For reference my mb (60):
Code:4 Flooded 4 flooded strand 2 delta 3 tundra 1 sea 1 scrub 2 plains 3 island 4 mishra 2 wasteland 1 ruins 4 force 3 snare 3 cs 3 bs 4 standstill 3 top 4 stp 2 ee 2 wog 2 humility 2 decree 2 elspeth 2 wish 1 cow
1. Thresh
1a) UGW balance
IN: -
OUT:-
What would I expect?:They will definitly bring in Grips and maybe Teeg, B2B...
Comment:This matchup is just a bye. As a option u can bring in random Extirpate or Path for your 2 cunning wishs, when u prefer a more directly game but wish still offers these options.
When your are playing maindeck CoW I would cut it for path/extirpate.
I guess thats also your sb'ing plan mossivo.
1b) UGR Tempo
IN: 2 Path?
OUT: 2 Cunning Wish ?
What would I expect?:They will definitly bring in Grips and REB, maybe Spell pierce.
Comment:Here we have several options. First the wishes go out, because they are just too slow vs. their LD plan and we gain additional spot removal. Also nice cards to bring in are E. tutor (on CoW for example) and random extirpate for their grips, but I dont know what to cut.
2. Tribal
2a) Gobbo
IN: Your Plagues, BEB, Path, E. Tutor
OUT: Spell snares, Cunning Wish, 2 Standstill
What would I expect?:They will definitly bring in Grips, maybe REB,
Earwig Squad.
Comment:We just drop a plague/humility. So we want to improve that outs with the E. Tutor.
2b) Merfolk
IN: Your Plagues, Path, E. Tutor, 1 Extirpate
OUT: 4 Standstill, 2 Wish
What would I expect?:Splash or no splash merfolk list?
Comment:Standstill is obviously crap, so the Plagues come in.
What are here the other options? What's up with the spell snares in this matchup?
3. Aggro
3a) Zoo
IN: 4 Balance, 1 Path
OUT: 4 Standstill, CoW
What would I expect?:They can bring in the full hate in form of grips, teeg, winter orb, armageddon, REB etc.
Comment:Not an easy matchup and I'm not sure with the boarding. Here I would board the balance because otherwise the burn will kill you. Keep the wishes in to max. the outs for the Pulse.
greetz
Dude, pretty sure Balance is on the banned list
He's referring to counterbalance. It's shorthand, but generally CB or balance (if referring to legacy or any deck with more than one of the card in question) will mean counterbalance.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
I didn't want to share a list that I've been working on but in order to prevent myself from noobing out due to my disillusioned beliefs, I wish to seek the help of our Landstill community here before I make any rash changes. PT Austin's going to be great with 20 duals 1st place, and 20 foil shocks 2nd place, so I want to take a deck that I'm comfortable for a spin (too bad my Welderstone Survival deck isn't that great against a Zoo-ish/Dredge meta). Here's the list I'm deciding on for PT Austin. I'm expecting lots of Dredge, Zoo, Countertop, no Stax except for Brian, no Imperial Painter except for drew, and no Aggro Loam except for David. I'm imagining that a certain amount of combo/ANT and Dark Depths will be played.
With regards to the meta, and getting really sick on not drawing lands with 3 Top and 4 Brainstorm, I upped the 61st card as the 24th land drop. I feel that the following addition has strengthened the deck, at least in the suspected meta mentioned above.
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Acadey Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Dust Bowl
0cc
3 Engineered Explosives
1cc
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Spell Snare
2cc
4 Standstill
4 Tarmogoyf
3cc
2 Cunning Wish
4cc
2 Wrath of God
2 Elspeth
5cc
4 Force of Will
SB:
1 Path to Exile
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Negate
4 Counterbalance
What I like about the list above from my experience playing Landstill:
- It still has the main shell of aggro removal: 2 Wrath, 4 Swords, 3 EE. There's no Disk/Humility and that takes a huge blow but 4 Goyfs sometimes make up for that.
- Elspeth/Factory beats is a tough win-condition to deal with
- 4 Standstill. I still like 4 Standstill and they're great on the play. I play 3 SS while on the draw.
- I was tweaking a Wishless list, but I love the flexibility and power of Wish to get out of any trouble.
- Spell Snare > Counterspell in the current meta. Counterspell is far too slow and is terrible on the draw. UU is sometimes too strainous if you need to StP off a tundra on turn 2 or resolve a counterspell Daze free. Snare is great in top-still and allows you to spin top and cash in for Snare if needed.
So Goyf over which cards?
From the classic list, I opted to cut 2 Counterspell and 1 Disk/Humility and another flex slot for 4 Goyfs. My basic philosophy is:
- Goyf is just that good. In testing today, he won a couple of games by turn 5 all by himself, and in a deck that runs Snares/FOW/StP, you can keep him safe.
- More importantly, Goyf's role in this deck is unlike Thresh and aggro.dec. Goyf is the best wall against opposing Goyfs, and that's one big reason why I included him. I sometimes lose randomly by not drawing removal, and opponents just stringing creatures while I'm forced to take damage. Goyf is now a wall for me to start digging into answers.
- Goyf improves the goblin/tribal matchup (not that we need it, but it's another out to turn 1 lackey while on the play). It gives a chance in game 1 to race Dredge (Thresh has a good game 1 chance against dredge compared to the rest of the field because Dredge makes goyf automatically 5/6 on turn 2).
- Goyf is now an inherent clock against combo, and greatly improves the iffy matchup.
Regarding the SB and MD Goyfs, the transformational SB now allows me to play some weak aggro Thresh-ish build with:
3 SDT
4 Brainstorm
4 CB
4 Goyf
4 StP
It's almost like UGW Countertop but without the creatures. CB is great against Zoo/Burn, and the added Goyf adds to the defense to make it a very winnable matchup. Countertop + Goyf will now consistently win combo the way Thresh does, and finally, my 2cc drop is increased against combo for Countertop with the added Negates + Goyf + Standstill + Counterbalance. Countertop against Canadian Thresh is also better now and for that specific matchup, I would side out Wraths and higher cc spells (Cunning Wish/Wrath) for relics + Countertop. One problem I had with Countertop in Landstill post board is that it absolutely sucks. There's hardly any 2cc spells to flip and many flips are dead even with top in play
3 Negates are good against the Stax/Mirror/combo mirror. Countertop + Negates + Extirpate + higher 2cc count should give no problem against combo. Extirpate is usually brought in against Loam/Ichorid MD. I play 2 Pates and board out Wish against Ichorid since it's too slow. Relic + Pate should also be great against Loam/Ichorid. I'm a fan of Extirpate, in response to Reagen's post: Extirpate is great when you can get rid of the remaining 3 Goyfs/Tombstalkers in opposing decks. Against the control mirror, it gives an edge in counterwars. I usually find myself boarding in Extirpates against decks with either recursion or bombs that are hard to deal with. I know from experience Extirpate against Dreadstill is a beating if you can EE Dreadnought and Pate it away so that they have to go with Factory + Trinket Mage beats. Against Canadian Thresh, Pating Goyf is also big.
I need some opinions for the list above. It's really strong at the moment, and I think it's ideal in the meta I described. I just hate Landstill crapping out hands since it's such a consistent deck, and I hope this move makes it more resilient and avoids drawing random jank.
FYI: My original Goyf-still list was: -1 Path, -1 Standstill + 2 Decrees. I love the Decrees but I really wanted more removal for the lack of counterspell. Decree seemed a little slow with the lack of Counterspell that were replaced by Goyfs. I'm not sure with this list that the 4th Standstill will be best, and the 5th StP/Path in the MD would supplement it better than 2 Decrees. Another option would be to run 2 EEs instead of 3, and play out 2 Decrees with only 3 Standstill or maybe squeeze in an ETutor MD to act as a silver bullet for the 3rd Standstill/2nd EE. Advice on how to do the Path/4th Standstill/2 Decrees in the MD would be greatly appreciated.
A question about the above list: Do you like Extirpate enough to be black just for that? You could go (SB: -2 Extirpate, +1 Relic, +1 Ravenous Trap (or something)) and cut black for a much better manabase.
Other than that I kind of like the list!
I should totally spite you and play my all foil(that can be) stax deck and lend out my imperial painter to someone for PT Austin.. lol...
Anyways the list looks solid though I would consider running a Ravenous trap in the sideboard for a cunning wish target against Dredge. Also wouldn't Tormod's crypt be better than relic of progenitus with academy ruins & goyf?
I'm also a huge fan of decree of justice in landstill.. can help buy time mid-game, makes standstill stronger, and is amazing late-game.
Team FireBrothers
Good points. I didn't mind the black for just Extirpate. I'm playing 2 less basics, and since the only suspecting LD decks that are going to be popular is Canadian Thresh, in which Landstill already has a favorable MU, I'm not too worried about wastelocking out.
I used to play black for EP, Vindicate and Pate, but it seems that cutting Vindicate makes black overall a weak color if you're not playing EP. I decided on Goyf to solve the aggro matches instead of EP. Goyf is as flexible as EP against aggro but it's a turn faster, and it's actually good against Eva/Thresh/Zoo whereas EP is good against tribal. My main incentive to cut EP was that it was a tad bit slow and with the popularity of Zoo over tribal (maybe except merfolks), EP seems weak for me. I've tested it against Dredge. It's still too slow since I need to keep mana open on turn 3 to either counter or swords to slow Ichorid down.
I would think of Ravenous Trap and free an entire color. Not sure how often setting EE@4 is going to occur against the mirror or losing Extirpate to the mirror and Dredge is going to matter. I really like Extirpate above crpyt/relic against Dredge since you can easily Pate Ichorid or Bridges or Dread Returns depending on what you have in hand and tempo the hell out of Ichorid with StP on Narcs and Ichorids. Extirpate destroys Loam much better than Trap does. I'm so far satisfied with the 2 black. I never really use the black unless Pate comes in, and in most matches where it comes in, I won't have a risk of losing my lands (dredge/mirror) except for aggro loam which isn't played much in the USA.
I'll bring the Decrees and test it on the way. I've played with and without Decrees and I'm going for decrees. It speeds up games and chumps and swings, does everything for the deck. I'm just not sure whether it's good in THIS list since I just made and tweaked it up. I'll probably go back to Decrees (they're secret tech against Ichorid too if you survive to turn 4 to chump and destroy bridges :D:D:D).
Another question, do people prefer to play 3 Negates + 1 Grip or more Grips and less negates for the green splash? I like Negates better since it is more flexible in the overall meta (mirror/combo/stax) whereas grip is good against certain kinds of deck (Survival/Stax). Negate requires you to be re-active whereas Grip plays the pro-active game. I'm just going to pray that my Stax/Countertop matches involve me drawing EE/Counters so I can try not to rely too much on Grips and side in Negates instead. Would people play a 2/2 split of Negate/Grips or 3/1 split in today's current meta?
The list was as usual, the performance as well (At least you told us that you always go x-1). The report was written in morse-style. What do you expect?
DCI: 68 10 43 34
In my opinion Tarmogoyf is awful in Landstill.
First point, playing landstill means u made the meta game call to shut off opponent spot removal. So nearly every legacy deck has at least 4 dead cards vs landstill. This means ~10% of their business spells are dead => its like they start with a mulligan on 6 every first game. Legacy is still a creature format, not like vintage.
I know there were landstill decks packing goyf or tombstalker (referring 4c vorosh), but those decks play differently and dont belong to uwb LS.
In landstill we play already the best finishers (Elspeth, Decree !!!). Sure u can play a creature as a finisher but 1. its not necessary (see the point best finisher...) and 2. I would rather play a creature with evasion than goyf. Every legacy deck expect goyf and need to deal with it AND its not that hard to deal with goyf.
So what would be the function of goyf? Lets have a closer look at your points.
1. Sure it has beated the opponent to 0, but was this really the point which won u the game? Give more details, but I would say: NO.
"You can keep him safe with Snares/FOW/StP" What? Seriously?
Snare doesnt counter Swords! And you really want to FOW a removal spell on your Goyf? Really? In a situation in which you cant win this turn? Misplay.
When you play a goyf the opponent will destroy him and you will say: "Sure, resolves." I mean we are the control deck. We dont have to win turn 5 or what. We dont want to protect a irrelevant creature, because its not our game plan.
And I dont see the point with "swords protects your goyf".
2. Goyf is a wall, right. "I sometimes lose randomly by not drawing removal, and opponents just stringing creatures while I'm forced to take damage."
Well, in that case, why you dont play additional removal??? When you play a blocker like goyf it just turns on the opponents removal and in the end you have nothing. Additional removal would be much better.
3. You can play Goyf out of the board, which can be really nice.
4. Here you are right. ->3.
Lets look at the cards you cutted for goyf. I will just refer to Humility.
Because Legacy is still a creature format: Humility > Format. It is really that simple. I mean Landstill has beside Combo one of the best first games in the format. I cant even imagine Landstill without Humility. It just fits so perfectly in Landstill like maybe no other card. You just drop it and win. It wins every tribal/aggro/aggro control match at random.
Some other points on your list.
- 4 Standstill. Agree. I know some people play only 3 but I would never go below 4 for some reasons.
- Your manabase looks shaky (the tropical islands, less basics). With this manabase I would play 4c landstill with deeds.
Has anyone given any thoughts to Burning Wish recently? I was batting around ways to make a CB curve work (for the MB) and Wish seems to be the best 2cc spell that makes it work. I don't like the sorcery speed theme for a control deck, but some of the options (wish => firespout) sounds pretty solid. I don't know if CB is the direction to take this, but it's how I ran with it at first:
4 CB mana curve: 12/12/0/6/4
3 CS
4 Fow
3 SDT
3 Standstill
3 brainstorm
2 B. Wish
4 STP
3 EE
2 WoG/4cc removal
2 P2E
2 Els
2 DoJ
6 fetch
6 Duals
7 basics
4 Factory
Just a thought, I mean you could even put in a green source or two and go wish=>LftL which would be MEAN. Any thoughts on this, guys? I'm just looking to brainstorm right now.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
I refer to the meta I'm suspecting (Zoo,Dredge,combo,tribal gobs/folks).
@Humility:
Pin-point removal is always great, and in my list, I'm down with -1 Humility, -1 flex slot, -2 counterspell. That's true that in some sense I've lost the power of Humility but it's not hard for me to play it anyway. I've won on the back of Humility many games, but plenty of them involve me stabilizing against 1-3 creatures instead of swarms (since wrath/EE deals with swarm well). I decided to take out Humility for Goyfs based on the fact that I recognize that Landstill has a favorable game 1 against any aggro (Zoo, Thresh, tribal) even without Humility. Goyf does bait removal and makes them have less dead cards, but seriously, do you ever get your Factory to attack without a Standstill? I don't since in Game 1, people have their removals unused and all aiming at your landdrop that beats. Your argument that you win every aggro game with Humility is true, but looking carefully at the classic Landstill list, we tend to win aggro matches anyway without it (2 Wrath, 3 EE, 4 StP, Counters, Decree, Elspeth -> aggro goes WTF???). I'm risking 1 card in my favorable matchups to improve my weaker matches game 1.
@Removal against Goyf:
Actually, removal against my Goyf is another reason why I like Goyf in the deck. To some degree, if they don't have removal or if I countered their removal, I can start winning the game. If I countered a removal and drew a Standstill, that's great. If they did resolve a removal, then in the suspecting field that runs Path/StP (only really relevant removals that can kill a big goyf, bolts count but that means it's 2 bolts less to your face), I would have gained life equivalent to 2 Pulses of the Fields for free (most time when I wished for Pulse, I never gain above 12 life), which is enough to put you back on the clock to control the game, or if they Pathed Goyf, that's even better to get Wrath/Elspeth online faster.
@manabase:
I've played 4 Basics (2 Islands, 2 Plains) with 4 BS and 3 Tops previously and never really had trouble. Currently, I'm dropping down to 3 Basics, which maybe pushing it but I'm keeping my 2 Plains against Moon to resolve my game winning spells. Other than that, I've dropped the black dual count by 1, and I'm playing the 24th land so the mana isn't an issue. There were times where I wanted to fetch G/W but I refuse to play Savannah due to balance in the board. I've only missed playing Goyf 1 out of 12 games yesterday and the only reason was I was playing against Eva with the nuts draw. You just have to keep that Trop when you want to play Goyf and don't open yourself to wastes. Sometimes I like baiting wastes with trops to get Tundras safely across and win with WW. Also, in response to my meta-choices, only Canadian Thresh is loving my manabase, but that matchup should be a by anyway. And I've considered the unstability of the manabase against Zoo, which is infact irrelevant, and its weakness to Canadian Thresh is replaced by dropping higher converted mana cost cards (Wrath/Humility/Disk) for lower cards (Goyfs). Wrath/Humility/Disk becomes pretty dead against Canandian Thresh and only EE,StP,Snares,FOWs are relevant cards in game 1. Therefore replacing these high cc cards with Goyfs gives me a good shot against the field of aggro/Zoo/tempo thresh.
@Goyfs SB:
You suggested putting Goyfs in the board, which I intended to do initially, but after thought, Goyf MD would give Landstill a better game 1 against its weaker matches: Dredge,combo specifically, and even against Stax. Why do I need removal pre-board when I'm already set in winning my aggro-matches anyway? My goal with this is to secure higher game 1 wins, be it on the draw or play.
@Loss of removal/counters:
With my previous list, the added removal becomes dead cards against the mirror, combo and Dredge. Goyf greatly improves these 3 matchups, which I deem to be the weakest Landstill matches game 1 (we have 50-50. 60-40 post board depending on whether we know how to play this deck).
All in all, I'm not saying that Goyf in Landstill is viable, but I'm referring for advice in that specific meta, that this is a good choice, and I'm not in any way advocating Goyf in Landstill, I'm asking for advice for my tourney that's coming on Saturday. I'm convinced that this is a good choice for such a meta, but I would like feedback on it, and not whether Goyf is good in Landstill. I think he's bad, but I think in today's meta, he's a decent call especially if you run counterbalances in the SB with 3 Top main, making a quasi transformational SB plan to a slower countertop decklist.
I've been liking DoJ less these days. I find that its been too slow, at least as a 3 of; even as a 2 of I'm thinking it may be a little much. I may go back up to 2 but I just don't like it early game.
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