Background
I have been working on this deck for almost 1-2 months. It began with the traditional GRu Welder Survival list which played both Intuition and Thirst for Knowledge (TfK). The problems with the old list is that it is too dependent on Welder, which was the point of the deck. I tweaked the old traditional list to include enough blue count for Force of Will to give the deck with some resiliency in setting up the Welder combo but FOW was too clunky with a low blow count. I'm still worrying about the lack of counterspell in such a fragile deck. I've been tweaking Next-Level Painter in the meantime and through that process, I found an answer, a possible solution to diversify the Welder Survival's win-conditions without detracting too much into the danger-of-cool things.
I wanted a deck that incorporated Welder activation at instant speed (only possible in Welder Survival with Anger. Legacy Control Slaver has the problem that Welder suffers from a lack of haste, making the deck fragile without countermagic). Looking at some of the Imperial Painter lists that utilized Welder for recursion and advantage to win (e.g.
Activate Grindstone, in response sac Grindstone and weld in Painter to win, or in response to StP on Painter, weld another Painter etc. Welder gives Painterstone combo more resiliency if a piece is countered or destroyed (barring StP/Extirpate effects).
Problems with Survival decks in general is that they are fragile without Survival. That was the main weakness of Welder Survival. Without Survival, it had to resolve TfK to set up the engine, and risk losing Welder altogether before you can activate him. Good Survival decks in the current meta (Elf Survival, Bant Survival, RGBSA) all function decently without Survival in play. Welder Survival perhaps functions the worst without Survival in play. This was the main motivation towards engineering Welderstone Survival. Outside of the Survival gameplan, I can utilizie Painter's Servant and REBs to control the early game, or sometimes win randomly with Painterstone combo. The Tarmogoyfs add to an additional win-condition and with Survival out, you can swing in with multiple hasty goyfs.
This deck still has problems against decks with answers to Survival, but it has become a whole lot less-dependent on it. Survival definitely speeds up the deck and lock in this deck, but it is not required at all. Without Survival, I can still piece up Painterstone, Painterblasts or beat with Goyfs, or set up Welder engine with TfK, but with Survival, I can tutor up Painter/Trinket Mage to fetch up Painterstone combo, or tutor up Jaya with Quirion Ranger to set up permanent REB effects, or tutor up Welder engines to lock the game down in my favor, or just beat with multiple Goyfs. I hope that in reading this thread, you guys understand that this is ultimately a Survival deck, and hence it's reliance on Survival. I have merely tried a deckshell that decreases its reliancy on Survival to function, but if Survival is resolved, the deck plays all the brokenness of Survival.
Without any more talk, here's my latest creation
UPDATED LIST:
DECKLIST: WELDERSTONE SURVIVAL
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
4 Taiga
1 Plateau
3 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Tree of Tales
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Goblin Welder
1 Quirion Ranger
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Rofellos
4 Painter's Servant
1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Jaya
1 Grim Poppet
1 Sundering Titan
1 Reaper King
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Grindstone
4 Survival of the Fittest
SB:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
5 REBs
2 Krosan Grip
1 Heap Doll
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
DECKLIST: WELDERSTONE SURVIVAL (old list)
Lands: 20
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
2 Forest
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Tree of Tales
1 Academy Ruins
Creatures: 21
3 Goblin Welder
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Painter's Servant
1 Rofellos
1 Trinket Mage
1 Jaya, Mage Ballard
1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Master Transmuter
1 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant
Instants: 10
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
4 Thirst for Knowledge
Artifacts/Enchantments: 9
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Chrome Mox
2 Grindstone
SB:
2 Trygon Predator
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Triskelion
1 Platinum Angel
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Red Elemental blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Firespout
You can play the deck in multiple directions:
- Set up Painter to protect your future plans with blasts.
- Set up Survival to piece up either Painter or Welder combos/locks.
- Play Goyf and stall a little.
I would say this deck plays more like Painter than Survival since the 6 MDed REB effects add to more resiliency in resolving your future spells.
The list is pretty self-explanatory but there are some card choices that may raise questions:
1) No Birds/Elves?
This deck does not run Birds/Elves. It runs 3-4 Chrome Mox which synergizes with Welder. 21 creatures is plenty for a deck that isn't bent on abusing Survival to the fullest (it uses Survival as an advantage engine, not the main engine).
Quirion Ranger:
Quirion Ranger is there to save against Waste-effects, but it allows you to play with less lands, and more crucially, it untaps:
- Welder
- Jaya
- Master Transmuter
- Rofellos
therefore allowing for more options and tricks against StP or Wrath effects.
Rofellos:
- Since the deck does not run birds, Rofellos is needed to generate mana. With Rofellos, you can now play out Duplicant and even Sundering Titan without Welder. More importantly, Rofellos is important in chaining hasty Goyfs to beat for the win.
Trinket Mage:
- In situations where you have Painter and need to win with Grindstone, Trinket Mage can fetch this up. I put 1 in the MD since he also allows me to fetch SB options (Needle/EE/Crypt) if needed with Survival out. He is probably the weakest slot in the deck.
No EWitness?
- Once again, this deck doesn't need Survival, and hence there's no incentive to return Witness. Your other targets are mostly important creatures, which die to StP in Legacy, so witness can't bring them back. I play her in the SB against relevant decks, but she is weak in the MD.
Jaya:
- With Painter out, you can do what Imperial Recruiter does by tutoring her out, but instead, with just one green mana. Jaya locks the game out with Painter in play, and unlike Imperial Recruiter, you can actually start discarding Squee every turn to abuse her even more.
Master Transmuter:
- I'm a huge fan of this blond chick and really want to find a deck for her in Legacy. It just sucks she's 4cc. In this deck, it's more feasible to power her out with either Rofellos/Welder. If she's in play, your engines become more deadly. Painters are now immune to StP as you can vial out/in the Painter that's targeted in response. If you have either Duplicant/Sundering Titan out, you can via them out and in to abuse their CiP effect. It's a win-more strategy, but nevertheless one of those Survival Advantage locks. In traditional RGBSA, you rely on Shriekmaw/Rofellos/Genesis to lock your opponents, but in this build, you rely on Transmuter or Welder + Duplicant/Titan to destroy your opponents. Master Transmuter with haste is a pretty deadly thing, and with Quirion Ranger, you can do multiple tasks that result in your opponents making the bad decisions. If you have Survival in play, your options are diversified as you can tutor up your targets to vial in with her.
Thirst for Knowledge
- I'll be frank on this one. I just like this card. It's probably not suited in this deck, and can be better as something else, e.g. Birds. I do love the draw power of the card and in Chrome Mox builds, a 2nd turn TfK is really nice. I do feel that this is the most out of place card in the deck since the deck isn't too focused on the Welder combo. (Master Transmuter allows you to play out the dudes from your hand, where in regular Welder Survival, you are reliant on the dudes in your yard and without Survival, those dudes will never be in the yard. With Master Transmuter, you can now bring them in without worrying about discarding them for Welder activations).
2 Grindstones:
I think I need to up this to 3 and cut the Trinket Mage. Currently, I only own 2, so I'm playing a suboptimal list.
Other possible MD cards that should be there depending on the meta:
Trygon Predator: I think I'll end up cutting a Trinket Mage for him.
Magus of the Moon: Great card once again.
Matchups: (To be followed up after this weekend's testing with my Legacy group.)
- Against Thresh/Countertop/NLU: you should have a 50/50 or 55/45 matchup at best preboard. MD REBs are big against them. You dudes other than Goyfs are small so Thresh might clock against you while disrupting you with countermagic. This matchup should be focused on setting up Survival and Painters so bait with Welder. Sticking a Goyf means stalling for a few turns. Use REBs only to protect Survival, after which you should own from there. Welders also add another out to countered spells and bringing them back into play uncounterable. Try to win with Goyf beats (preferbly chained via Survival) or win with Painterstone combo. Tempo Thresh is the worst matchup and Canadian Thresh probably has this deck 60/40 at worse in their favor.
SB bring in Shushers and Trygons against Countertop and pack in the 4th REB and Pyroblasts.
Against Landstill
This is a tough and easy matchup depending on whether they have answers to Survival. Bait with Goyfs/Painter. Welder does better against Landstill since you dodge countermagic and try to set up Sundering Titan asap via Transmuter or Welder. Your REBs MD are good here once again.
Matchup should be more favorable than Thresh since there're no Dazes to play against. REBs will counter every blue spell they have and Wrath doesn't stop you if you have Survival out protected.
Eva/Deadguy:
These matchups are considerably harder. Discard isn't too painful unless you're cut on lands. Survival is mana hungry, and so is this deck. They have a fast clock, so you need to try to hit your landdrops consistently. This is where Quirion Ranger shines, so tutor her up whenever possible since it nullifies almost all of their Land destruction spells.
Stax:
Preboard it's doable if you get Painter out. You have to answer Chalice@1, but with Painter out and if you can, fetch Jaya and things get smooth. Post-board get in the Grips/Trygons. Play with their smokestacks and use Welder to your advantage.
Enchantress:
A little tough if they get Confinement, in which you need Grips. If they get both Confinement and Sterling Grove, you're probably locked out. Since their clock is somewhat slow, in that situation, set up Sundering Titan and Transmuter and start destroying their lands and run them out of cards if possible.
Zoo:
- Bad matchup. Burn is bad for you. They have a fast clock too. Try to resolve Goyf and block if able. Post board get in the Firespouts to help a little. If you can stick Painter, then it's good but chances Painter's getting fried and sent farming. You should try to win via Painterstone combo since you cannot match their clock.
Current thoughts and ways to tweak the deck:
+1 Grindstone, +3 BoP, +1 Trygon Predator,
-4 TfK, -1 Trinket Mage.
Any thoughts and criticism will be well-appreciated. I think this is probably the more viable Welder Survival build since like Bant Survival and Elf Survival, it can function better without a Survival in play.
Last edited by GGoober; 09-13-2009 at 10:07 PM.
Wow, what a great approch to this archetype. I am really suprised, someone came up with another (kind of) Welder Survival list.
I think I am currently there where you were about 1 month ago, namely trying to fit Force of Will into the GRu Welder Survival.
Yes, it is really hard, I am up to 18 blue cards. It works, but removing e.g. Thirst for Knowledge and other cards for Mox doesn't help your plan either. So I am undecided here, and try Cabal Therapy for now (GRub).
Talking about the alternative win condition in your list (Grindstone), did you test other plans? I mean in other Welder Survival threads we talked a lot about other win plans. Finn believed, the only or best approch would be the aggro path with e.g. Wild Nacatl, since it would strengthen the aggro-control and control matchup.
Do you have any opinion, if your approch might be better?
What I like is the Jaya + Painter interaction and the synergies between most cards.
What I don't like is the missing power of Triskelion or Nullstone Gargoyle in many matchups. I think I'd replace "the blond chick" with one of them.
Also, 6 red blast effects seem like a lot and often dead, since they are too dependent on Painter.
Keep the work going!
How is this better than Welder in a traditional UR Control Slaver shell which at least gives you access to counterspells?
normal Welder Survival is already better than Control Slaver imo.
Threats (Grindstone) are usually better than answers (counterspells).
EDIT:
Ok, I played exactly your list for like 4-5 games. But somehow I don't really like it, as I thought I would.
I missed Shield Sphere sometimes, but too often, that I'd include it.
Academy Ruins ruins (;-)) your mana base, I never needed its ability. Volcanics aren't that good either.
Somehow the deck tries too many things. I mean, if you have the blasts or Grindstone, you don't have the painter. If you have the Painter, he is justing sitting there and paints all things blue, but you don't have the blasts. And if you have a blast, it feels like you paid 2R and 2 cards to destroy something, because the Painter again does nothing after the blast.
And going for the Grindstone kill via Survival => Trinket Mage => Grindstone is soo slow, that I'd rather go Sundering Titan and with it.
Well, all in all, I feel there is no focus and too few card selection.
I tested it up and have the same feeling too scooter. I'm tweaking the lists a little. The deck should play more like Imperial Painter with Survival replacing Imperial Servant. Agreed on the Ruins. It's terrible.
The problem with Control Slaver is that most of the time, the more I play the deck, the more I feel that Welder isn't needed, and the more the lists find redundancy in Mindslaver and the more it becomes a regular control deck that shifts towards MUC or Landstill.
This is just a new idea that I've thought about. Trinket Mage was there hypothetically, but after testing, I agree it's too slow. Welder Survival sets up some locks that this deck can do as well. Like my suggestion above, I'm dropping the Trinket Mage. Master Transmuter is good in my testing at least. At the very least, I've been able to do:
save many targets (e.g. plat angel in play) by discarding transmuter and welding Transmuter in with Welder and vialing out/in plat angel again. It allows for many combat tricks actually, and even if Transmuter dies (barring StP effect), you can always weld her back in to do more stuff. She's good as a 1-copy.
My original Welderstone list had 4 Brainstorm, but I was so cut on space. I can probably drop down to 4 REB instead of 6. That should be the right direction I hope.
I'd make room for Sharuum. Welding in Sharuum and having her put Sundering Titan in play should win the game. Not many decks can answer 12 damage a turn + a one-sided Armageddon.
Sharuum is usually not needed. If you want to have the same effect, Quirion Ranger does the same most of the time.
Sharuum completely streamlines the idea of winning with Sundering Titan, which I think is better than winning with Painter. All you need is Sharuum and Titan in the yard, which is easy because of Survival. I would probably do Sharuum+Titan instead of Painter and Grindstone if only because it's cheaper (mana-wise - no activation of the stone).
It also makes the deck feel like it's avoiding the Danger of Cool Things with cute tricks with Ranger, etc. It's a game-breaking single activation of Welder. I'd rather win with as little effort as possible once I've assembled a favorable board position (which is pretty difficult if you're relying on resolving/activating Survival, sticking a Ranger and Welder, and activating both).
I know the thread is named Welderstone Survival, but I don't think Welder Survival needs Painter at all.
I'd rather put Sharuum in the category of Danger of cool things.Originally Posted by MEATROCKET
1. Sharrum is only good when you have Survival running.
2. You can't hardcast it.
3. It doesn't fullfil other roles like Quirion Ranger does (making mana with Birds, nullifies Wasteland and Sinkhole and other LD)
4. Qurion Ranger instead allows for 2 Welder activations in your turn and another one in the opponents turn. Swapping Titan or Duplicant this way is already pretty insane.
Maybe it works with Intuition if the control player has to chose if he rather has his lands destroyed or facing Sharuum and another beater (like Nullstone Gargoyle or Triskelion).
Usually Intuition + Welder would end up with Sharuum and the second best creature from the pile or the best creature from the pile.
But if you don't play Intuition, you should win without it (but with Survival) easily.
The problem is, that there are many competitors for a slot e.g. Platinum Angel wins more games against decks like Elves, Affinity, Ichorid than Sharrum would.
Or Inkwell Levithan would probably win more games against control, than Sharuum.
After some testing I aggree on this.
Of course, and I didn't really mean to imply that she isn't. But my point is that if you are going to try cool things (such as Ranger + Welder or Painter + Grindstone) that Sharuum + Titan is, imo, the least dangerous of the Cool options.
Ranger is no danger ^^
As I said he helps on so many sides:
- Untap Birds for more mana
- Protect lands
- He acts like a land if you don't draw further ones
- Gives one creature vigilance (useful, if you're playing the defensive role, but still want to attack with your fatties)
- Allows for 2 Welder activations (or even 3 if you count the opponent's turn)
- Hardcastable
He is not just a gimmick. He is more useful, than a 5/5 flyer in a situation where you have won nearly anyway, because your opponent just lost three lands and is facing a hasty 7/10.
And as I said, if you want to have another fatty in play, just invest one single more G (which really should be affordable in the midgame) and activate Welder twice.
I really never want to miss Ranger...
Sharuum is not bad of course, but I'd only play it in addition, not instead of Ranger. And probably it is most worthwile in an Intuition pile.
Got to test this.
I would absolutely never cut Ranger from a Survival list with Rofellos and Anger. No way. I didn't say that I'd cut Ranger for Sharuum. I'd cut Master T for sure, as well as all of the red blasts, Painter, Grindstones, Jaya, and Thirsts.
I guess I just think that a standard Angry Survival deck with Welder+Sharuum+Duplicant+Titan is better than a Welder Survival deck, if you know what I mean. And even then I'm not sure I'd play it over a normal Survival build.
Ok, then I misinterpreted it...
Really? Probably the best instant draw spell in the format. Even restriced in Vintage. And it fits so well with the artifact theme.
Unfortunately not.. Where's the difference?
I strongly disagree with this. As a draw spell, Fact or Fiction is better in Legacy. Brainstorm, while not necessarily card advantage, is almost always coupled with fetches in this format and becomes insane card selection. Neither of these spells require that you run a high number of artifacts just to support them.Really? Probably the best instant draw spell in the format. Even restriced in Vintage. And it fits so well with the artifact theme.
Thirst is restricted in Vintage for various reasons and the reasons aren't comparable to Legacy. Vintage decks run a supportable number of artifacts regardless of how many Thirsts they play because they'd be dumb not to (Moxes, Sol Ring, Lotus, etc.). Thirst also proved to be a ridiculously good Mana Drain sink. In legacy, spending three mana for +2 cards, maybe +1, while restricting your deck-building options just doesn't cut it.
Survival is just a better engine than Thirst. No need to try to make both of them working, especially when we already have Survival to dump our robots in the yard.
They splash for Black or White (or both) for discard and removal. They also have a lot of creatures that make up a very useful and versatile toolbox. You can check out the thread in the DTB forum.Unfortunately not.. Where's the difference?
But FoF requires that you run a control deck, which is about as restrictive as an artifact theme.
And I don't want to count Brainstorm as draw spell (no CA).
Sure, that is obvious. The problem is that you don't always have Survival.
Thirst helps to find it and acts like an alternative discard outlet for our fatties and makes CA most of the time.
I mean if there's a deck in Legacy, which can play Thirst at its best, it is this (and maybe Control Slaver). So why don't play it?
Hm... well ok, but if you squeeze the complete Welder engine into a "standard" (as you called it) Survival, you end up having a Welder Survival.
Maybe without blue splash, but GBr and GBw variants have been discussed, too.
Another way to go with this would be to add more Scarecrows and put in Reaper King, making him your one-card answer to almost everything, so long as Survival is out. This also means you can run Scarecrone as draw, Scuttlemutt as additional mana accel, and Heap Doll as recurring graveyard hate.
I definitely think blasts should go to the SB, but Jaya needs to be kept, because she locks down the game if you can play her and Painter's Servant. It makes it harder to stick things through permission, but that's why the blasts are still in the SB.
Hi, just started brainstorming about putting Survival/Painter together with "The Shining" combodeck from older vintage format heres my list:
Creatures:
3 Goblin Welder
1 Sundering titan
3 Painters Servant
1 Squee, goblin nabob
1 anger
1 Trinket mage
4 tarmogoyf
1 quirion ranger
Spells:
4 Survival of the fittest
1 grindstone
4 reap
1 lions eye diamond
1 magma mine
2 intuition
4 mox diamond
1 engineered explosives
3 senseis divining top
4 brainstorm
Lands:
4 Volcanic Island
4 tropical island
2 polluted delta
3 wooded foothills
1 academy ruins
1 forest
1 mountain
1 island
1 tree of tales
1 seat of the synod
1 great furnace
Got no Sideboard yet but got the same problem as every survival deck, it needs to be protected, i thought of playing forces+counterbalance but i am not sure if this would work. In fact Xantid swarm and grips will be in the sideboard.
Could you please shed some light on the 'The Shining'-Combo?
Thx
Painter -> "Your clothes are black!" -> Reap, should bring 2 or more Cards from the graveyard to your hand.
Reap -> Lions eye diamond -> magma mine -> kills
As its same as the grindstonecombo just a bit more difficult reap+painter are good at their own as a reap will dig through the graveyard and can even win by getting back goofies or the grindstone.
Well, as per my additional scarecrow suggestion a few posts ago, this is a possible list I have been testing out that seems to work quite well...
I also ended up cutting blue, because, while drawing is nice, I have a nice little draw mechanic in colorless with Scarecrone. I also ended up keeping the blasts, as they are generally good game 1 and can easily be taken out the second and third games if they aren't.
Main
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Taiga
3x Mountain
3x Forest
2x Tree of Tales
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Grindstone
3x Red Elemental Blasts
3x Pyroblast
4x Goblin Welder
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Painter's Servant
4x Scuttlemutt
4x Scarecrone
2x Heap Doll
1x Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1x Reaper King
1x Grim Poppet
1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1x Anger
1x Sundering Titan
1x Platinum Angel
1x Squee
Sideboard
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Krosan Grip
3x Pithing Needle
2x Heap Doll
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
This has been working quite well for me, as the combo finish can come out very quickly, although you essentially have to run 4 Grindstone with the lack of Trinket Mage.
A lot of the cards generally serve several purposes, as well, with all the scarecrows serving as Vindicates with Reaper King in play. I've always liked adding "Destroy target permanent" to my Welder activations.
In addition, Scarecrone helps with draw and returns creatures to keep up the drawing/welding, Heap Doll is a cheap artifact creature that doubles as 'yard hate, Grim Poppet is on par with Triskelion, and Scuttlemutt protects your creatures from color-dependent hate, i.e. most black spot removal.
All in all, its been working pretty well, and can win fairly handily without SoF in play.
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