In this case you could mystical for Dark Ritual and go for the IGG route for a sure win. Anyway, Mystical is better.Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
I don't see how you can Mystical for Rit and win. You have to wait a turn to draw a SSG, land, Mox, Petal and win next turn. You draw dark ritual. Mystical for D. Rit at EOT and go for the IGG loop.
Ponder is better here.
With ponder you have to discard your hand with tendrils in it. So I suppose one of those 3 spells was Wish
EDIT: Done some more testing:
31. Rite of flame, Petal, CoB, D.Rit, Ponder, IT, Cabal rit.
M: Mystical for dark ritual and IGG loop or AN at choice on turn 2.
P: Ponder into Gemstone mine, Wish, Dark ritual. Same as above on turn 2.
Same
32. Rite of flame, 2xD.Rit, Infernal, Ponder, Cabal rit.
Questionable hand. In both cases, I draw LED and IGG for the win on turn 2.
Same.
33. Petal, Ponder, Brainstorm, AN, LED, Mox, ROF.
M: Mox, Imprint Mystical, Brainstorm into Dark ritual, Cabal ritual, WIsh. Put back Rite of flame and wish. Combo on turn 2 with AN.
P: Same as above.
Same.
34. Petal, Ponder, Ponder, Orim, D. Rit, LED, IT
M: Play nothing, go. Draw mine, play mystical for D.RIT, IGG loop on turn 3.
P: Petal into ponder, showing Mine, LED, Wish. Draw mine. Draw LED, Win with IGG loop on turn 2.
Ponder is better.
35. Rite of flame, 3x gemstone, Ponder, SSG, IT
Questionable hand.
M: do nothing on turn 1. Draw mox. Mystical for AN, combo on turn 3 with AN
P: Ponder reveals Mox, COB, Brainstorm. Shuffle and draw Petal. Draw D.Rit. Draw Mox. Combo with AN on turn 3.
Same.
36. CoB, Mine, 3x D.Rit, Led, Ponder
M: Mystical for AN or IT. Win on turn 2 with it.
P: Ponder see Ponder, AN, RoF. Draw Rite of flame. Combo with AN on turn 2.
Same.
37. LED, D.Rit, Brainstorm, CoB, Ponder, 2xIT
M: Mystical for D.Rit or AN and win on turn 2.
P: Ponder into Ponder, Wish, Cabal Ritual. Draw Ponder, Draw Cabal and win on turn 2 with AN. Or you can ponder into Wish, land,land. Draw land and go for the IGG loop for 9 storm+ tendrils.
Same.
38. Mine, Duress, Duress, Ponder, LED, Wish, CoB
M: Mystical for D.Rit and combo turn 2 with Diminishing returns (B or U open).
P: Ponder into Wish, Cabal, Rite of flame. Draw rite, draw cabal and combo with Dinimishing Returns (B or U open) on turn 2.
Same.
39. Mox, Brainstorm, Ponder, RoF, IGG, D.Rit, Orchard
M: Brainstorm into AN, SSG, Mine. Put back Mine and Ponder, Play AN.
P: Same as Above.
Same.
40. Ponder, Orim, Mox, RoF, IT, IT, Duress.
Mulligan
40. LED, CoB, Ponder, RoF, Brainstorm, IT, Orim.
M: Brainstorm into Mox, D.Rit, LED. Win on turn 2 with IGG loop or AN
P: Same as above.
Same
41. 2x D.Rit, SSG, IT, Orim, Ponder, Mox
Mull
41. Duress, 2xCoB, Petal, Ponder, IT, LED
M: Mystical for D.Rit and combo on turn 2 with AN or IGG loop.
P: ponder into Petal, Mine, Ponder. Shuffle and draw Mox. Draw brainstorm and play it. Find Brainstorm, IT, Orchard. Put back Orchard and petal. Play mox(brainstorm), IT revealing LED. Nest turn Duress+IGG loop or AN.
Mystical is better.
42. Wish, Petal, CoB, Paradis, D.Rit, Ponder, AN.
M: Mystical for D.Rit, combo with AN on turn 2.
P; Ponder reveals Wish, Wish, Brainstorm. Shuffle and draw Petal. Draw Orim. Combo turn 2 with AN + chant.
Ponder is better (chant)
43. CoB, Petal, Wish, Wish, Ponder, D.Rit, Petal
M: Mystical for AN, win on turn 2.
P: Ponder into SSG, AN, RoF. Draw simian, Draw An and win.
Same.
44. AN, D.Rit, IT, Cabal rit, Orim, Ponder, ponder.
Mull
44. Brainstorm, duressx2, d.rit, IGG, Ponder, AN
Mull
44. Ponder, AN, 2xCoB, 2x Mine, Wish.
Questionable but keepable.
M: Turn 1 nothing. Draw orim. Mystical for D.Rit and win on turn 3 with AN.
P: Ponder reveals Orim, IT, Led. Draw It. Draw Led. Play IT for LED. Combo on turn 3 with IGG Loop or D. Returns.
Ponder is slightly better: AN on turn 3 might be risky against certain decks.
45. Wish, Mox, RoF, Minex2, Braisntorm, Ponder.
M: Brainstorm into IT, Petal, Gemstone. Put gemstone and IT back. Mystical for AN and win on turn 3.
P: ponder into IT, Petal, Gemstone. Shuffle and draw Petal. Play brainstorm into Brainstorm, Led, D.Rit. Combo with Diminishing Returns on turn 2 with UB open.
Ponder is better.
46. Ponder, Orim, Orim, AN, LED, Paradise, SSG.
Mull.
46. D.Rit, SSG, Cabal, CoB, Mox, Ponder, Rite of flame
M: Mystical into AN, Win turn 2.
P: Ponder into Paradise, RoF, LED. Shuffle and draw Orim. Draw Brainstorm. Brainstorm into Mine, Mine, RoF. Lose.
Mystical is better.
47. Brainstorm, IT, Mine, CoBx2, ponder, Wish
M: Brainstorm into Mox, D.Rit, Petal. Put back Wish and CoB. Upkeep mystical for AN and win turn 2.
P: Ponder into Mox, D.Rit, Petal. Draw petal, draw D.Rit. Brainstorm into Mox, AN, D.Rit and win with AN.
Same.
48. Ponder, SSGx2, Petal, Rite of flame, Orim
M: Mystical for AN, win on turn 2.
P: Ponder reveals LED, Mox, COB. Shuffle into Dark ritual. Draw orim and pass. Draw duress, draw mox, draw IT and win on turn 5.
Mystical is better.
49. CoB, D.Ritx2, Rite of flame, Ponder, LED, Duress.
M: Mystical for IT or AN and win on turn 2 with IGG or AN+duress
P: Ponder for IT,Ponder, D.RIt. Draw D.rit, draw IT and win on turn 2 with AN or IGG + duress.
Same.
50. AN, Mox, IGG, Brainstorm, Ponder, Orim, Gemstone.
M: Brainstorm for Orim, Orim, RoF. Put back 2 orim. Mystical for D.Rit, combo on turn 3 with AN.
P: Ponder for Orim, Orim, RoF. Shuffle and draw duress. Draw Orim. Play brainstorm into CoB, Mox, Orim. Put back 2 orim and lose.
Mystical is better.
51. Petal, Brainstorm, Ponder, D.Ritual, Duress, Cabal ritual, Mox
Questionable hand. First 3 cards are IT,IT,Mox. Mull.
51. Mine, IT, Ponder, Chant, Mox, Wish, CoB.
Questionable hand, does nothing ever unless you draw some good piece of acceleration.
51. Cabal, SSG, Ponder, Duress, LED, AN, Brainstorm
If you draw a land/Mox you'r going to win on turn 3 with AN (in the mystical version). But I don't like those chances. Mull again.
51. Orchard, Duress, Mox, Cob, Cob, AN, Ponder
M: Mystical for D.Rit and win turn 2 with AN
P: ponder into Wish, Wish, Rite of flame. Shuffle and draw ponder. Draw LED. Ponder reveal LED, Brainstorm, Mox. Draw brainstorm, put AN on top and win next turn.
Mystical is better
52. Cabal Ritual, IGG, Brainstorm, Duress, Ponder, Petal, CoB.
M: Play brainstorm into brainstorm, IT, AN. Put back brainstorm e igg. Mystical for D.RIt in upkeep and win on turn 3.
P: Play ponder into Brainstorm, IT, AN. Shuffle and draw LED. Draw IT. Brainstorm into D.Rit, SSG, Wish. Put Back Wish and Duress. IGG ftw on turn 2.
Ponder is better
53. Petal, Mine, Ponder, BS, Ponder, Duress, LED
M: Mystical for AN and win turn 2.
P: Ponder reveals AN, Mine, IT. Same as above.
Same.
54. D.RIt, Ponder, AN, Chant, Orchard, Mox, BS
M: Mystical for D.Rit and AN on turn 2.
P:Ponder into LED, Petal, Mine. Draw LED, Draw Petal, same as above.
Same.
55. BS, RoF, Orim, Duress, Ponder, Mox, LED
Questionable hand. I'd mull it.
55. Petal, LED, D.Rit, Mox, Mox, Ponder, IT
M: IGG loop on turn 1.
P: Same
Same.
56. Mox, Petal, Wish, Ponder, BS, D.Rit, IT
Questionable hand. I'd mull it. (First 3 cards are Wish, Orim, Duress)
56. Orim, Tendrils, Ponder, IGG, RoF, Mine, AN.
I'd mull this one too. It's full of bricks.
56. BS, Wish, Ponder, LED, IT, IT, RoF
Mull
56. Ponder, Ponder, AN, An, IT, Led, Mine.
M: M. for Dark rit. Turn 2 Mystical for Dark Rit and win turn 3 With AN or IGG loop.
P: Ponder into Petal, D.Rit, Wish. Draw RItual, Draw petal, play ponder into wish, petal, Rite of flame. Draw petal, Draw Rite of flame. Combo turn 3 with IGG or AN.
Same.
57. Brainstorm, Ponder, Mox, Mox, AN, Mine, RoF.
M: Mystical for D. RIt and combo turn 2 with AN.
P: Ponder into SSG, Gemstone, Tendrils. Draw SSG, Draw Gemstone. AN Turn 2.
Same.
58. Wish, Wish, IT, Orim, IGG, BS, Ponder
Mull
58. Led, Mox, CoBx2, AN, Duress, Ponder.
M: Mystical for AN, win turn 2.
P: Ponder into Duress, Brainstorm, IGG. I can go for AN on turn 3 putting AN on top with brainstorm or I can shuffle. I shuffle and draw brainstorm. Draw chant. Brainstorm into Chant, Chant, Duress (...) Put AN on top with chant. Play Mox, Imprint duress, duress. Then chant on my upkeep and win on turn 3.
Mystical is better.
59. Cabal, IT, RoF, BS, Ponder, Mine, CoB
M: Brainstorm into Paradise, Mine, D. Rit. Put back Paradise and CoB. Upkeep Mystical for AN and win on turn 3.
P: Ponder into Paradise, Mine, Dark RIt. Shuffle and draw IGG. Draw mox. Brainstorm intoDuress, CoB, Wish. Put backCity and Igg. Imprint Duress into mox and IT for Rite of flame. Draw gemstone mine on turn 3. Wish for Returns with B open. Fizzle. Needed 1 mana more.
Mystical is slightly better.
60. Tendrils, Wishx2, Mox x2, Petal, Ponder
Mull
60. Ponder, Mox, 2x Rite of flame, Brainstorm, LED, AN
M: Imprint Mystical on mox, Play brainstorm Revealing LED, WIsh, Orim. Win turn 2 with AN.
P: Same
Same
61. Paradise, IT, CoB, AN, IGG, Ponder, RoF
M: Mystical for D.Rit and win turn 2 with AN.
P: Ponder reveals Petal, Chant, Mox. Combo turn 2 with AN.
Same.
62. LED, Petal, RoFx2, Wish, Ponder, AN
M: Go for Returns.
P: Same.
Same.
63. LED x2, Duress, Paradise, Ponder, Brainstorm, D. Rit.
M: Mystical for IT, Win with IGG loop or AN with Duress backup.
P: Ponder reveals Brainstorm, City of brass, Wish. I can win turn 3 with D.Returns, but I try to shuffle draw orim. Draw rite of flame. Play brainstorm into CoB, Mine, Mox. Lose
Mystical is better.
64. Cabalx2, CoB, IGG, D.Rit, Mox, Ponder
M: Mystical for AN, win turn 2.
P: Ponder into Rite of flame, Orim, BS. Shuffle and draw D.Rit. Draw orchard. I try a desperate combo with IGG into ponder and try to not lose speed against mystical (I'd never do this in tournament setting). Ponder into LED, BS, Mine. Shuffle and draw IT. Tutor for tendrils and win. This obviously, doesn't count.
Mystical is better.
65. Ponder, SSG, Mine, Orchard, Petal, D.Rit, Petal.
M: Mystical for AN, win turn 2.
P: Ponder into D.Rit, IT, Wish. Turn 2 win with An, IGG or Returns.
Ponder is better, cause it let you choose the storm generator.
66. Duress, AN, Ponder, LED, Rite of flame, Orim, Mine.
M: Turn 1 duress, draw Mox. Draw COB. Mystical for D. Rit and win with AN, or Mystical for WIsh and win with D.Returns. Turn 4. Could Combo turn 3 if I did not play duress on turn 1.
P: Turn 1 Ponder into Mox, CoB, Mox. Shuffle and draw Brainstorm. Draw Mine. Brainstorm into Tendrils, Petal, CoB. Put back Tendrils and CoB. Combo turn 3 with AN.
Almost the same.
67. SSG, CoB, Mine, Ponderx2, Brainstorm, Wish.
M. Brainstorm into AN, Orim, Mine. Put back Mystical and Wish. Mystical for D.Rit. Turn 3 Win with AN+Chant
P: Ponder into AN, Mine, Orim. Shuffle and draw Orim. Draw rite of flame. Ponder into Mox, Wish, Chant. Shuffle and draw D. Rit. Braisntorm into SSG, Rite of flame, Duress.Put back Orim and SSg. Draw SSG. Combo with Diminishing returns or ETW+duress+next turn chant on turn 3.
Mystical is better.
68. LED, Dark ritual, Orim, Petal, CoB, Orim, Ponder
M: Mystical for AN. An on turn 2 with orim backup.
P: Ponder into Rite of flame, Mox, D.Rit. Shuffle, draw D. Rit. Draw Mine. Draw Mox, Draw mox, Draw Mine. Lose.
Mystical is better.
69. IT, Orim, RoF, 2x Cob, Ponder, Wish.
M: Turn 1 nothing. Draw AN. Mystical into D. Rit. Win turn 3 with AN.
P: Ponder into AN, BS, Mine. Draw AN, Draw Mine. IT into Rite of Flame. Turn 3 combo with AN.
Same
70. SSG, Petal, LED, Ponder, Mine, Orchard, Brainstorm
M: Mystical for AN, turn 2 combo.
P: Ponder into Ponder, Rite of Flame, Mine. Shuffle and draw Mox. Draw dark ritual. Brainstorm into IT, Mox, Petal. Combo with IGG or AN at choice.
Ponder is slightly better.
Updated results with 70 hands:
Better Mystical: 20
Better Ponder: 16
Same: 34
Please. People. Do some hands.
What number of hands do you guys feel is a good amount of goldfishing to validate those results?
Last edited by GreenOne; 12-17-2008 at 07:49 AM. Reason: Done some more testing
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Sorry in advance for double posting. Those were quite long posts.
71. Ponder, Orim, SSG, IGG, IT, IT Brainstorm
Mull.
71. Paradise, Duress, CoB, Ponder, Mine, C.Rit, Chant.
M: land, go. Duress, go.Mystical for AN. Combo turn 4 with AN.
P: Ponder into Tendrils, RoF, Orim. Shuffle and draw Petal. Draw mox. Draw rite of flame. Draw wish and combo with D.Returns with B open. Fizzle.
Same.
72. CoB, Duress, LED, BS, AN, Ponder, IGG
M: Brainstorm into IT, LED, Cob. Combo turn 2 with IGG or AN.
P: Same.
Same.
73. Orchard, AN, RoF, Ponder, D.Rit, SSG, IT.
M: Combo turn 1 with AN
P: Same.
Same.
74. Rof, SSG, Cabal rit, D.Rit, Mine, IT, Ponder
M: M. for D. Rit or AN and combo turn 2 with AN or IGG.
P: Ponder into Orim, BS, LED. Combo turn 2 with AN or IGG.
Same.
75. Duress, Orim, Ponder, Ponder, D.Rit, CoB, Brainstorm.
Questionable hand, I'll try.
M: Brainstorm into IT, IT, AN. Put back IT, Mystical. Mystical for D.Rit. Combo on turn 3 with AN.
P: Ponder into IT, AN, IT shuffle and draw Brainstorm. Draw Rite of flame. Brainstorm into AN, SSG, LED. Combo turn 3 with AN.
Same.
76. ROF, Duress, LED, Ponder, D.Rit, SSG, SSG
Mull
76. C.Rit, LED, BS, Ponder, Petal, RoF, Mine
M: Mystical for AN, Win turn 2 or Mystical for D.Returns and try to win with B or U in pool.
P: Ponder into Wish, LED, Petal. Combo turn 2 with D.Returns with 4 mana open.
Same.
77. Petal, Mine, D.Rit, CoB. Ponder, An, RoF.
M: Combo turn 1 with AN.
P: idem.
Same.
78. AN, Orim, Mine, Ponder, D.Rit, D.rit.
M: Combo turn 1 with AN.
P: idem.
Same.
79. SSG, Wish, Ponder, BS, D.Rit, Duress, Mox
Mull
79. Orim, D.Rit, Infernal, Mox, Ponder, Duress, Mox
Mull
79. BS, Ponderx2, Petal, Mine, Mox, IT.
M: Brainstorm into Mox, RoF, D.Rit. Put Mox+IT on top. Play mox with Mystical. Mysticl for AN and win on turn 2.
P: Ponder into Mox, RoF, D.Rit. Draw D,Rit, Draw RoF. Ponder into Mox, D.Rit Wish. Shuffle and draw Orchard. BS into Ponder, CoB, Wish. Combo next turn with Returns with UB open.
Mystical is better
80. CoBx2, LED, RoFx2, Ponder, Mox
M: M. for IT/Wish and win with IGG, Returns or AN at choice on turn 2.
P: Ponder into Mine, Wish, Mox. Draw mox, draw Wish. Go for D. Returns.
Mystical is better.
81. Ponder, AN, Mox, CoB, IT, IT, Wish.
M: Mystical for D.Rit. IT for D.Rit. TUrn 3 AN.
P: Ponder into D.Rit, Petal, CoB. Draw Petal, Draw D. Rit, Combo turn 2 with AN.
Ponder is better.
82. Ponder, LED, CoB, Petal, IT, D.Rit. Mox.
M: Win turn 1 with IGG.
P: Same.
Same.
83. Petal, IT, Orim, Ponder, BS, Petal, RoF.
Mull
83. Mine x2, CoB, BS, Petal, Rof, Ponder.
Slow but keepable.
M: Brainstorm into RoF. LeD, Mox. Put back Mox+Land. Upkeep M. and win with AN, IGG or Returns.
P: Ponder into RoF, LED, MOX. Draw Led, Draw ROF. Play brainstorm into Mox, LED; Petal. Lose. If you decide to shuffle after ponder you end up with a turn 3 AN.
Mystical is better.
84. Brainstorm x2, Petal, Mine, D.Rit, Duress, Ponder
M: BS into Wish, Mystical, Mox. Put back Duress, Mystical. Play mox (Brainstorm) and M. for AN. Win turn 2.
P: BS into Wish, Ponder, Mox. Put Back Duress and BS. Mox (Ponder) and ponder (BS, Duress, IT). Shuffle and draw SSG. Draw IGG. Go for Returns with 0 in pool.
Mystical is better.
85. Ponder, IT, D.Rit, BS, Petal, Ponder, Duress.
Mull
85. Mine, Ponder, Mox, Orchard, RoF, Duress, Paradise
Bad hand, but I'll play it anyway.
M: Land, Go Draw orim. Land, Duress, Mystical for AN. Turn 3 AN.
P: Ponder into Chant, Wish, Tutor. Shuffla and draw Petal. Draw RoF. Draw Brainstorm. BS into CoB. SSG, CoB. Lose
Mystical is better.
86. D.Rit, IT, AN, Wish, CoB, Ponder, Petal
M: Mystical for D.Rit and win turn 2 with AN.
P: Ponder into Chant, Ponder, IGG. Shuffle, draw RoF. Combo turn 2 with AN.
Same.
87. Duress, Mox, Ponder, CoB, D.Rit, BS, Wish
M: Brainstorm into BS, AN, Wish. Put back Wish, Wish. Mox (Brainstorm). Mystical for D.Rit. Combo turn 2 with AN + duress protection.
P: Ponder into BS, AN, Wish. Shuffle, draw SSG. Draw Mine. Can combo right now with Returns with 0 in pool. BS into Tendrils, Paradise, Orchard. Combo turn 3 with Returns with B or U open.
Mystical is better.
88. D.Rit, ponder, 2xPetal, 2xRoF, Cob.
M: M. for AN, win turn 2.
P: Ponder reveals Rof, Cob, Mine. Shuffle, draw Petal. Draw orim. Draw RoF. Draw Mox. Lose.
Mystical was better.
89. RoF, AN, Ponder, Orchard, Duress, SSG, SSG
M: M. for D.Rit, combo turn 2 with AN + duress
P: Ponder into CoB. Mine, Mine. Enough for a turn 2 unprotected AN. Shuffle into Mox. Draw CoB for a turn 2 unprotected AN anyway.
Mystical is better.
90. CoB, Paradise, IT, RoF, Ponder, IT, BS.
M: Brainstorm into D. Rit, Cabal Rit, Orim. Put back IT, Orim. Mystical for An/ Dark rit for a turn 3 IGG or AN.
P: Ponder into D.Rit, C.Rit, Orim. Draw D. rit. Draw C.rit. IT for D. RIt. Draw Orim anyway. Play BS into Petal, SSG. Mox. Put back Orim+ Paradise. Go for the IGG loop or AN.
Same.
91. IGG, D.rit, Ponder, Mox, Tendrils, RoF, BS
Mull
91. Petal, Mox, Wish, Duress, Ponder, SSg, Orchard.
M: M. for D. Rit for a turn 2 ETW(10). Or play duress. Another chance to play ETW or play M. for AN and win turn 3.
P: Ponder see D. rit, Mine, IT. Turn 2 ETW (10) or shuffle and draw wish. then draw orim. Then LED and win on turn 4 with D. Returs. Or You can decide to not shuffle after ponder. Draw D. Rit, draw IT, Play Infernal for D.rit. Draw Land and combo on turn 3 with Returns, 3 mana open.
Mystical is slightly better, but this doesn't count.
92. Orim, AN, C.Rit, RoF, Ponder, Petal, Tendrils
Mull
92. Orim x2, LED, CoB, Ponder, Tendrils, D. Rit.
M: M. for AN, win turn 2
P: Ponder into LED, SSG, RoF. Shuffle and draw Petal. Draw CoB. Draw RoF. Draw LED and lose.
Mystical is better.
93. Wish, Orim, Petal, AN, Ponder, Duress, Wish.
Mull.
93. LED, Ponder, IT, Brainstorm, Orim, Duress, Mine.
M: BS into Petal, AN, D.Rit. Combo turn 2 with AN.
P: Same.
Same.
94. 2xCob, Orchard, Ponder, Orim, D.rit, BS
M: BS into Mox, BS, RoF. Put back CoB and Orim. Upkeep Mystical for AN. Combo turn 3 with AN after a brainstorm reveals RoF, D.Rit, BS.
P: Ponder into Mox, BS, RoF. Shuffle, draw AN. Draw C.Rit. Combo turn 2 with AN or turn 3 with Chant+AN.
Ponder it Better.
95. Orim, SSG, Ponderx2, Tendrils, Orim, C. Rit.
95. AN, D.Rit, D.rit, Petal, Pondet, It, IT.
M: Turn 1 AN.
P: Same
Same.
96. IT, SSG, SSG, AN, D.rit, Mine, Ponder
M: Turn 1 AN.
P: Same
Same.
97. Ponderx2, IT, Rof, Paradise, SSg, Petal.
M: Mystical for D.Rit. M. for AN or D.rit. Combo turn 3 with IGG or AN.
P: Ponder reaveals Tendrils, SSg, D.Rit. Draw Rit. Draw SSG. Ponder into Tendrils, Led, AN. Draw LED for IGG, Draw AN for AN. Turn 2.
Ponder is better
98. Petalx3, Tendrils, SSG, Ponder, wish.
Mull
98. Mine, Mox, BS, CoB, Orim, C.Ritual, Ponder.
M: Brainstorm into Mystical, Led, Orim. Put back Orim x2. Play mox(Mystical), Mystical for AN, Win turn 2.
P: Ponder for Ponder, Led, orim. Draw Led, Draw ponder. Play ponder (Chant, LED, SSG). Shuffle and draw D. Rit. Play BS for RoF, RoF, Wish. Combo with D. Returns on turn 3.
Mystical was better.
99. Rite of flame, 2x CoB, Brainstorm, Ponder, Tendrils, IT.
M: Bs into Petal, LED, Orchard. Put back tendrils and Orchard. Upkeep M. for D.Rit and win with IGG loop or AN turn 2
P: Ponder into Petal, Led, Orchard. Draw Petal, draw Led. BS into Prchard, LED, D.Rit. win now with Whatever you like.
Ponder was slightly better.
100. D. rit, IGG, RoF, Duress, Tendrils, Ponder, BS
Mull
100. Rof, Mox, Wish, Ponder, BS, LED, IT
M: Mox Imprint Mystical. Play BS. into Wish, AN, BS. Put back 2. Draw wish.Bs into AN, Cob, Cabal Rit. Put back WIsh+AN. Combo turn 3 with AN.
P: Ponder into Wish, AN, BS. Shuffle, draw Paradise. Draw B. Wish, Play IT for Led. Combo next turn with IGG loop.
Same.
Updated Results with 100 hands:
Better Mystical: 30
Better Ponder: 20
Same: 50
I believe we can have partial results with those data. Ponder and Mystical are almost equally valid in this slot for a goldfish. I believe Mystical should be better post side, when it can also fetch silver bullets. Mystical, however, Sucks in multiples, so I'd play something like a 2/1 split in this deck.
Thoughts? More data to work on? Comments about the goldfishing session?
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Goldfishing seems like the wrong way to go about this. I know you've put a lot of work into it to see what you come up with, but obviously in a goldfish, a tutor is going to be better than a cantrip, because there's no pressure, and you don't have to be concerned with card advantage. I'm not sure the same would hold true in real matches.
Why in a goldfish a tutor is going to be better than a cantrip? Mystical can't find LED nor lands.
There really is pressure in this match. Specifically, you have to combo off faster than the other version.
I know that goldfishing is not like a real match, but what I wanted to do is put up some data to back up the usual "Mystical is just too slow" or "Mystical finds the combo faster" debate.
In real matches you have to be concerned by both card advantage and card quality. You can have a hand with all the acceleration pieces in the world but if you miss a tutor, you can't combo.
Ponder can provide you with an acceleration piece and a tutor that you draw in your draw step. If you needed those pieces than M. Tutor wasn't going to give you the win.
This wants to be an evaluation of how much having 2 "more random" pieces is better than having the single (non-artifact, non land, non critter) piece you like. As the results show till now, there's not a great advantage in running one or the other. And this is quite an impressive result. I was expecting Ponder to do better in a deck with so many redundant pieces.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Unfortunately I am not interested enough to participate in this Mystical-thingy, but if you are really serious about this, I'd feel like a record of the most tutored, seconde most tutored etc. card would be a great asset.
I'd be curious to know how many times it was "just a" dark rit :)
Sorry for my interruption but how many does our match up get better against MUC or other counters decks after boarding??
And how do you exactly side in (Bryan list)???
For Christ's sake people, read the thread or at least the opening post. I just updated it not even a week ago.
Against almost any blue deck:
-2 Simian Spirit Guide
-3 Ponder
+2 Shusher
+3 Pyroblast
If you want more space/cards...
-1 Ad Nauseum (first)
-1 Chrome Mox (second) [You want 0cc mana for after Nauseum resolves]
Good idea!
out of 79 times Mystical was actually played, the target was:
Dark ritual: 36
AN: 34
IT: 6
Wish: 2
Tendrils: 1
So almost half the time the target was acceleration (D.Rit) and half the time it was a storm generating machine (tutor or AN). This means that the deck has the right number of both and is not particularly low on either.
A thing to notice is that it was played 0 times for a second Rite of Flame (D.Rit is actually the best acceleration piece after LED), 0 times for a brainstorm (it happens with FT). The only time it was played for Tendrils I had a hand with 0 lands, acceleration + LED + IGG + Mystical + Brainstorm.
I guess that in actual gameplay the range of targets should be more open. Against a real opponent you might want some disruption piece or silver bullet. In the mid game you can tutor Cabal Ritual (with Threshold) or RoF (if you have some in the grave) as a more effective piece of acceleration.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
I think that 10 hands of advantage is not a great percent to conclude that mystical > ponder, but its small difference makes me begin a test with 3 mystical ( - 3 ponder)
Meanwhile, am I correct to assume that Ponder will be a better topdeck than Mystical a fairly vast portion of the time?
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
Good idea, there are lots of things that the goldfish can't tell:
- A topdecked mystical is way worse than a Mystical in the starting hand, Unless you topdeck it with a brainstorm.
- Double Mystical sucks.
- Mystical is probably worse when you mull
- Mystical is better post side.
As I said before, I'd test a version with 1 or 2 mysticals. We never want to play three, with an higher risk of drawing 2 in a single game, cause its power level doesn't seem that bigger than Ponder's anyway. Also, Mystical+Ponder in hand is not bad: a shuffle effect after the cantrip looks good.
Also, I noticed a thing with mystical: you sometimes end up with a hand that's keepable, but you need more than 1 piece of acceleration/tutor to go off. In those matches if you don't have a brainstorm but got a mystical you end up with doing nothing on turn 1, which is bad. Maybe mystical works better with duress than with chant, so in those cases you have a turn 1 play anyway. Also maybe mystical deserves a different sideboard (1 chain of vapor+1Echoing Thruth comes to mind but maybe it's a bad choice). But the standard hand is already a good start to test it. Just mind the potential when you go through the gauntlet (like ask yourself, "what if in this case I could M.tutor for Wipe Away/Krosan Grip/E.Truth/Extirpate/Diminishing Returns/Whatever card you could have in the SB")
However, only testing can clarify this. Thanks for doing it GoldenCid.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
I played Bryant's list with a 2/1 split of Ponder/Mystical last night at a 14-man and made Top 4.
Winning through Counter-top one game vs UB/w Painter, and also Double Daze, Double FoW, Mage naming Chant against the same deck.
Gotta say, I loved it. The games I saw Mystical, I won because it tutored up Ad Nauseam or CHANT.
And when I saw Ponder, it did it's thing. edit: POST Ad Nauseam, I prefer Ponder there.
However, once online, I had a BAD Nauseam and Mystical pulled my ass out of the fire.
I was at 16 life/5 storm/0 mana, and cast Ad Nauseaum ... ripped AdN, Mystical, Brainstorm, Petal, LED, Petal, Chrome, AdN ... ugh 4 life, so risky.
I was about to risk it and realized hey, I can win! :D
Petal (6)
Petal (7)
Chrome Imprint AdN (8)
Petal -> Mystical for Tendrils (9)
LED (10)
Petal -> Brainstorm and crack LED (11, BBB)
Draw Tendrils and tap Chrome (12)
Gotta say, a 9th tutor doesn't hurt the deck any, it actually helps a lot in some situations.
But the type of tutor it is makes it best when seen early or when you need protection/win.
I wouldn't go 1/2 split, nor would I do all 3 Mystical, the card is too situational for that.
I dunno, I will need to do a lot more testing to be SURE, but in real gameplay, it was pretty good.
Men yet not comprehending their stick in the scheme of the prey-on-prey ballet of ending day
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Ok guys...i need help. I'm running bryant's decklist and against some deck i feel unprotected and i don't know how to combo off safely. For example...control MUC (force, daze, etc) or WU (FOW, daze, chant) makes me a mess. I read your comments about getting the combo on turn 2 in a stable manner and i can't, at leat against that kind of decks. What can i do?
I would really like to see a game where you guys are able to combo dodging 2 Daze, 2 FoW and a Chant, because it seems really hard to pull that of.
Nah, man Mage was NAMING chant. Plus, FoWs were on consecutive turns, not the same turn.
I happen to have 5 freaking lands out that game, so I wasn't hurting on mana.
Since I mulled, I was spending a little structure time at the start of the game.
Turn before kill, I go to Pyroblast MM (I have chant in hand I can't play and I may need to IGG), he FoWs.
Pyroblast forces him to expend resources to make sure he has barriers up for me to run into.
Okay no biggie, he goes, swings with MM and knocks me to 16.
My turn, I draw Chant #2, whee! Damn Meddling Mage.
I play Petal, fine.
Sac petal to Dark Rit, fine. (BBB)
I play a now threshed Cabal Rit, he FoWs. (B)
I play LED, fine. (B)
I tap 4 lands and use the floating to play Ad Nauseam, he Dazes, I pay with the 5th land.
He Dazes AGAIN and I crack LED for BBB to pay for it. (BB, going into AdN)
I draw a bunch of free mana, a few rituals, 2 Pyroblasts, and Tendrils. Game.
Play mistakes? Sure, but that is how it went down :D
Should have saved the FoW for nauseam, but he wasn't sure what I had in hand.
You never know what combo is up to sometimes.
Men yet not comprehending their stick in the scheme of the prey-on-prey ballet of ending day
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I began cutting 3 ponders (i know but well) to add 2 duress (now 4x) and 1 mystical tutor to feel me more protected.
Other changes or suggestions are welcomed.
Alright, I've been playing this deck for quite a while now.. And I have the biggest problem with Suicide Black / Pox Style decks.
I really have no defense against them, I can Duress them back, or I can chant them during there upkeep to keep them from destroying my hand. And that NEVER buys me enough time to combo off and win. I've considered Compost in the sideboard for this reason.. Can anyone think of a better SB or even main deck Alternative?
Who cares if she was dead, we did her anyway...
Against pox, I generally play my artifact accell as soon as I snag it. It's a good idea to drop some gas and then hide an AdN/IT via mystical or brainstorm on top of your library so you're completely immune to discard.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
I've tried to go that route... And I guess it's just my meta game? But the Pox style decks that I'm playing against all play Duress, Thoughtseize, Hym, Sinkhole, and Verdict all in the same deck (On top of SmallPox).
Who cares if she was dead, we did her anyway...
So they're not playing Keg or EE. Try going for an early ETW (at least pre-side), or buy yourself time with Orim. Going first with a duress in hand helps. Diminishing Returns and AN should be quite good here too.
EDIT: Also, dodging them is tech.
EDIT2: If there are too mamy Poxes to dodge them, try going with Ichorid and rape them.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
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