[Deck] Classic Suicide Black - No hatreds, though.

[C.P.]

I must say that I'm a huge fan of suicide black. I've been trying to revive it in legacy since the days of old type 1.5. Here's the current list.

4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Withered Wetch
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark confidant

4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Duress
4 Cabal theraphy

2 Umezawa's Zitte
4 Smother

4 Wasteland
11 Swamp
3 chrome mox

Sideboard

3 Pithing Needle
4 Engineered plague
2 darkblast
4 hymn to torach
2 Powder Keg

Explainations for some card choices:

The 1 cc Zombies: Well, I'm aware of the fact that using slower but less fragile creatures are probably better way to go. However, Sui balck without the zombies does not feel like a sui black. The basic game plan is to devote your first few turns on dropping creatures and back it up with disruptions, so the cheap zomebies are a must in this deck.

Withered wretch: A metagame call. Hoses just about anything that depends on graveyard.

Nantuko Shade: Only creature in the deck that is capable of sealing the deal alone. Also works well with lategame dark ritual.

Dark Confidant: One and only cardadvantage engine in the deck. I seriously danced around my room when I new that they were going to print this card. A 2/1 beatstick to boot.

Dark Ritual: Tempo given by the ritual is the heart of this deck.

Sinkhole: The best Black LD. This slot used to be devoted to hymns, but land destruction proved much more useful. with some help with wasteland, It really drupts the opponents mana base.

Duress: The best pinpoint discard in the game. Period.

Cabal Theraphy: This is better than hymn in a deck with 20 creatures.

Umezawa's Zitte: This is surprisingly easy to cast, even with 18 mana. Sometimes it just becomes huge nuisance for tempo, makes the scroll looking better in the spot. However, Cursed scroll need you to reach 3 mana, which is hard to achieve somtimes.

Smother: I couldn't find better option for the spot. Only other possible card that can replace it is vendtta.

Mana base: I sacrificed mana consistancy for threat density. The deck can run with 2 black source, though. 18 was a comprimise between the two.

The sideboad: Dependent on meta, but the one above says, "I hate gobbos and Chaleces"

Matchups:

Goblins: A really bad matchup. Their removal is more eficiant than mine, and their card advantage engine is better than mine. The sole reason that this deck is not viable is that It folds to goblins and random burns. 30/70 at most.

Solidarity: Autowin. You run 12 discards (including SB) and 4 LDs. And your creatures are fast enough. Never lost the matchup yet. 70/30 or better

Threshold: 50/50 against UGW, 40/60 aginst UGR This matchup was better back when I was playing with the Edict maindeck.

Other Combos: Unless they go off on turn 1 or 2, This deck usually do well against combo. generally 60/40 or better.

Blue based control: Landstill is 50/50, but MUC and other blue based control is much easier to beat. 55/45 or greater.

Burn: Almost an autoloss. With just enough discards and LD, You might have a chance, but that's rare.

Fish/other aggro control: This deck seems to be a slightly faster than the other decks, and have an advantage because of that. 50/50, with slight advantage on this side.

Well, That's it. I'd like to hear your thoughs on the deck, the one that I was taking care of since it was type 2 legal.

EDIT:

After some discussion, I realized that the whole design behind the build on the above is oudated and not suited for the current metagame without control.
Hence the new list:

4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark confidant
4 Phyrexyan negator

4 Dark Ritual

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Torach

3 Cursed scroll
4 Smother

4 Wasteland
14 Swamp
3 chrome mox

Little more consistancy on Mana base and Inclusion of negator and scroll make this deck little more reliable.

[erdjinn]

The deck is not bad. I like sui-Black. (Well, I like many decks)
But you say you have a nightmare matchup with goblins and burn. And a 50/50 or maybe worse matchup with Threshold and Landstill.
That's more than 50% of the field here, probably much more than 50%. So I don't see why should one play it.
Other than that I would probably cut Theraphy and run Hymn maindeck and Phyrexian Negator in the board.

[Zilla]

1. Given that it's a) Sui Black, and b) you're running the 8 zombie plan, I can't think of a compelling reason not to run maindeck Negators.

2. You can't get away with only 14 black sources of mana, especially when 3 of them are Chrome Moxen and most of your spells require double-black. Even with Ritual in the mix, you need to be running a minimum of 16 black sources in order to produce BB by turn 2.

3. Therapy is probably worse than Hymn in the maindeck, but it's somewhat meta dependent.

Aside from that, it looks like a pretty standard build.

[C.P.]

@GodzillA

Zitte and wretches can come out for more lands and negator, in that case. Then I'll probably have to change the plan a little bit, and it will be slightly less earlygame-intensive. Scrolls has to come in, as well. It is the build that I abandoned for more than 3 years, but that was the days that I had to face the goddamn Dragon. I'll have to test it out but this build might work better in the current meta. However, inclusion of the negator means even harder burn matchup.

@erdjinn

Well, as I said above inclusion of negator will change the whole deck. In the current build, thraphy is better because is is a 1 mana spell that pinpoints threats. Being able to pinpoint the threat and make sure you're not facing it for a while is very crucial to the deck.

[C-Aleric]

Well, from experience, and enough testing to know what this does, it's just a solid deck that requires your opponent to be playing anti-Sui Black to do very well. It's probably the best deck ever in a high Combo oriented meta. It is truely amusing to watch this pile walk over solidarity, and laugh at it a little bit.

And, DAMN that one open black mana when Shade is on the table, or C-Scroll is on the table. No one likes a late game Dark Ditual when it's just a Giant Growth. Or a Shock. Sigh.

[Mirrislegend]

How is this better than Br Sui? I'm not criticizing, just wondering: what real advantage is there over a build that has access to burn?

[Cait_Sith]

A more solid mana base for one. That is always good. Also, Sui-Black tends to be about a turn faster than Br Sui in return for a greater problem with aggro.

[C.P.]

A more solid mana base for one. That is always good. Also, Sui-Black tends to be about a turn faster than Br Sui in return for a greater problem with aggro.

Well, The whole 1cc zombie plan always had that weakness. BR Sui is more of a midgame deck compared to this one. The mana base is something that has to change, but 20 land is probably all I can have, or the deck will just change into something else.

@ Mirrislegend

BR sui is slower than this deck, and it tends to lose to the deck that has better disruption(e.g. fish) Classic Sui also has wasteland immunity and does not care about the plans to hose fetchlands. It is worse aginst aggro, but much better aginst aggro control and combo due to its cheap spells. Try this deck against a combo and you'll know what I mean.

[Cait_Sith]

I think +3 Swamp -1 Wasteland -2 Something else would work fine for your mana base.

[C.P.]

I'd like to keep the wastes. Just 3 more swamp will do but then the deck tends to have a very bad topdeck. going up to 20 or more mana source is kinda chunky, especially because this deck have no draw except the confidant.

[Cait_Sith]

2 Things.

1) Is Sangrophage too slow for this deck?
2) Replace the Moxen with 2 Swamps and a Lake of the dead. How does that sound?

[C.P.]

Sangrophage is one of the worst 2 drops that you can use in the deck.The raesons are:

1. It is a zombie, and you see lots of plagues calling zombie against this deck as it is.

2. there are much better options in the spot. 3/3 does not dodge bolt/chain, and with no evasion, it just take a chunk of your life each turn doing nothing. Things like rotting giant or dauthi slayer is better in this deck, and even a plain black knight has more advantage than the sangrophage(e.g.does not get StPed).

Lake of dead sounds interesting but this format has a card called wasteland. Since this deck has no wasteland target, they tend to sit there doing nothing. They'll love the oppotunity to get 2 for 1 advantage.

[Hanni]

Why not go with already well-established SuiBlack cards. Like Rotting Giant. He's a zombie, so you can drop him after your Sarcomancy tokens are blown up and recover from the life loss.

I'm not too sure about Negator in here due to the lack of spot removal but the zombie plan does make him more valid. He does make your clock a bit faster though, so it's something to consider.

Dystopia in the board should make Threshold a very good matchup... but the Withered Wretches should fair pretty well for you also.

I'm still not sure if I'd run mono black though... even with just a small splash, you still get the ability to run StP/Grunt (W) or Bolt/Chain (R). In my playtesting with B/r Sui, I never really had mana issues too badly.

Other than that, it looks pretty solid. I'm not sure exactly why this deck would have huge problems against aggro... the few points of life-loss from the Zombie's isn't really so bad when you put on such strong early game pressure. With Jitte, your aggro matchups get quite a bit better too (and a turn 2 Jitte via Ritual is pretty nice). Maybe board an extra Jitte or 2 for aggro.

You also gain Engineered Plague against Goblins, which is great. You have 8 answers to a turn 1 Lackey with the zombies and your threats should be considerably larger early game (your 2/2's and 3/3's vs their 1/1's and 2/2's) and in games 2 vs 3 you can outsize them even more with Jittes and Plagues.

[Cait_Sith]

C.P. I a just trying to make some suggestions so COOL IT.

[C.P.]

Why not go with already well-established SuiBlack cards. Like Rotting Giant. He's a zombie, so you can drop him after your Sarcomancy tokens are blown up and recover from the life loss.

I'm not too sure about Negator in here due to the lack of spot removal but the zombie plan does make him more valid. He does make your clock a bit faster though, so it's something to consider.

Dystopia in the board should make Threshold a very good matchup... but the Withered Wretches should fair pretty well for you also.

I'm still not sure if I'd run mono black though... even with just a small splash, you still get the ability to run StP/Grunt (W) or Bolt/Chain (R). In my playtesting with B/r Sui, I never really had mana issues too badly.

Other than that, it looks pretty solid. I'm not sure exactly why this deck would have huge problems against aggro... the few points of life-loss from the Zombie's isn't really so bad when you put on such strong early game pressure. With Jitte, your aggro matchups get quite a bit better too (and a turn 2 Jitte via Ritual is pretty nice). Maybe board an extra Jitte or 2 for aggro.

You also gain Engineered Plague against Goblins, which is great. You have 8 answers to a turn 1 Lackey with the zombies and your threats should be considerably larger early game (your 2/2's and 3/3's vs their 1/1's and 2/2's) and in games 2 vs 3 you can outsize them even more with Jittes and Plagues.

The thing is, It is better to change the build all the way if you're looking for splash. There were times that i tried BR or BW build, and I just found that already established version of the deck(e.g. Red Death) works better. And those deck are not as earlygame intensive as this deck. Winnig the aggro matchups always drag the game, and the life loss from zombies and bob is not negligiable. I'm thinking of a bould that just runs bigger creaturs, though. Giant or neagator might not be so bad. My meta has been combo intensive one time and that made me stress disruption a little bit too much, I suppose.

[Cait_Sith]

Right now Cabal Therapy is only a good draw is played right after Duress. It definately needs to go in favor of something more aggressive. Personally I'd vote for Negator because:
It only gets a drawback when damage, not simply when it takes a normal action.
It can be Dark Ritualed with a 100% chance of not being mana burnt.
It is tramply so in case of doubt it can still smash some face.
It puts your opponent of a very tight clock (4 Turns by itself).

[C.P.]

A Build with different philosophy:

4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark confidant
4 Phyrexyan negator

4 Dark Ritual

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Torach

3 Cursed scroll
4 Smother

4 Wasteland
14 Swamp
3 chrome mox

Sideboard

More graveyard hate + thresh hate, and some plagues.


Looks like this is a batter option in current meta, considering that I almost never have to face control.

[Cait_Sith]

You'll never sell me on scroll, but I like it. Fast and strong. Efficient. Remember people: decks like this rock vs Solidarity simply because they have 19 life to burn before they die :).

[C.P.]

@ Cait sith

You'll be surprised to see that I bring myselt down to less than 10 in the matchup... This build is better in a way that It has btter matchup against aggros.

Scrolls are great, and the only way to live through the late game. It also does well against RandomRemoval.dec.

[Cait_Sith]

Actually I am not surprised at all. Suicide Black rips your life apart. I am just noting the irony that this deck can toast Solidarity in so many ways.

And yea... I forgot RandomRemoval.dec It runs 4 of everything but a win con.