[Deck] Death Cloud Rock/Loam Control

[e=mc^2]

Over the past couple weeks I have been working on the following deck list:

3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
3 Barren Moor
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Wasteland
1 Volrath's SH
5 Swamp
4 Forest

4 Finks (awesome w/ Smallpox/Cloud/chump blocking)
4 STE (mana fixing and buys time against Goyf)
3 Terravore (Wins games quickly, but may be unnecessary)
2 E Witness

4 LFTL
3 Death Cloud (They generally lose more creatures than you do and it wrecks their hand)
3 Raven's Crime (Empties hands early)
1 Worm's Harvest (Win Condition)
4 Diabolic Edict (May switch some for Smallpox)
2 Smallpox (See Death Cloud)
4 Pernicious Deed

S.B.
2 Crypt
3 Choke
3 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip

The Deck Has Beaten:
Elf Stompy
4c Threshold
Tombstone
Team America (But lost once)
UBg Good Stuff

The deck has problems with:
TES

I have played three matches against TES and I have only won one game. Even if I can empty their hand early they can still win with Ill-Gotten Gains off the top, so I neet to be lucky with this one. Any tips on Improving this MU would Be great.

I would Also Appreciate any advise or comments on the list.

[bowvamp]

Advice eh? Ok, stop trying to be like a LftL deck. Either join em or beat em, but don't randomly play their cards. Check out some legacy The Rock.dec lists on deckcheck.net if you need any ideas. I am wondering why you run smallpox alongside deathcloud. If one needs the mana to blow up in the opponents face with a huge deathcloud why do you play smallpox. Replace those with Sinkholes.

[e=mc^2]

I love Loam. It sift through your deck with cycling lands, and help you recover from Death Cloud faster than your opponent. It also makes Raven's Crime even more awesome.

As for Sinkhole, it seems like a better idea than Smallpox.

[bowvamp]

Ok, keep loam if you like. Just at least play tarmogoyf! Too much green, too little goyf.

[DeathwingZERO]

With the Loam engine, and the fact that this deck isn't aggro control, I'd highly suggest running Tombstalker instead of running Goyf, if you are going to go for either. Chances are you'll be filling your yard rather quick, and two flying 5/5's beats ground stalemates any day.

I would also keep the Smallpox, as Sinkhole is too narrow. You are already going to make the card heavily one sided, being able to recur creatures killed or discarded, and you have plenty of land destruction already.

I'd probably suggest:

-1 Deed
-1 Terravore
-4 Finks

+3 Tombstalker
+1 Smallpox
+1 Witness

Finks is nice, but having more disruption from Smallpox and the ability to recur it via Stronghold + 4 Witness is awesome.

Tombstalker can probably easily seal the deal on it's own in the late game, and work fine in conjunction with Terravore, that's 5 stable win conditions with an active Loam engine, and they are still good without.

[bowvamp]

As he only has 12 sources of black mana in the MD, I can imagine a 1G unconditional spell to be cast more than a conditional BB spell. That is why I suggested Goyf. Sinkhole grants a tempo advantage that smallpox does not. This deck simply will run too many huge threats for Smallpox to work efficiently and will often end in suboptimal situations. Tombstalker DOES NOT work fine with Terravore! 6 cards out of the GY will probably mean at least 2 lands and with a goyf those would still be in there.

[DeathwingZERO]

As he only has 12 sources of black mana in the MD, I can imagine a 1G unconditional spell to be cast more than a conditional BB spell. That is why I suggested Goyf.

His threats are meant to be dropped at the end game, the other creatures are purely utility. Goyf fits into neither of these strategies, and frankly does nothing to his assault plan.

Also, saying there's only 12 black sources is an understatement, as there's fetchlands, STE, Witness, and Loam to balance the color requirements. I fail to see needing access to BB early and late game being an issue.

As for Smallpox, it is almost never situational in a build like this. Even if it misses one of it's hits (which will be either a discard or a creature removal), it's still doing it's job: filling the yard and preventing the opponent from gaining ground.

Sinkhole grants a tempo advantage that smallpox does not.

Whereas Sinkhole is nothing more than an LD spell, and Smallpox functions as removal, discard, and LD. Already having recurring Wastelands as well as Death Cloud is more than enough LD to cover gaining ground.

Add in that it's got Loam, as well as STE, it's got plenty of potential for tempo already, as well. The opponent isn't always dropping a land a turn, while Loam can say just the opposite here.

This deck simply will run too many huge threats for Smallpox to work efficiently and will often end in suboptimal situations.

I don't consider 5 threats with an average cc of 3 to be "heavy". Since there's also alternate win cons, one could even cut the numbers back to 4. Either way, they are going to be far more useful in the end game based on Smallpox being early removal and discard, not the other way around.

Tombstalker DOES NOT work fine with Terravore! 6 cards out of the GY will probably mean at least 2 lands and with a goyf those would still be in there.

This is assuming far too much of the game state.

First, Tombstalker does not have to be cast at BB, and since this deck has very few instant speed effects, it can afford to tap out to land a threat. I could easily seeing playing Stalker @ 4 or 5 mana and still being fine with it.

Second, Terravore counts all graveyards, and seeing as all of the land destruction is symmetrical, it's most definitely not going to care much about a possible -2/-2 if it's still swinging for 10+ with trample.

Another smaller benefit of Tombstalker over Goyf is it's resilience to Counterbalance as well as removal pinned at cheap CC creatures. It's very hard to flip an 8cc spell with CB, and it's not necessarily easy to set off Deed or Keg for 8 either.

[e=mc^2]

@ Tombstalker
This deck has so many ways to use the graveyard; Loam, Volrath's SH, E Witness, that I would not want to remove cards for Tombstalker. Also, Terravore has trample, so it can break through on the ground.

@ Goyf
I can see no reason to replace Terravore with Goyf. I have never cast a Terravore that would be smaller than a Goyf, and the one less mana in the casting cost irrelevant because I never cast Terravore early in the game.

@ Finks
Finks help to break the symmetry of Death Cloud and Smallpox. Also finks help me get into the mid/late game, which is what a control deck wants to do. In a pinch Finks can also finish the game.

[bowvamp]

@Tombstalker
If you "use" the graveyard already, why deplete it? All of the cards that you have mentioned want a healthy gy, so give it to them.

@Goyf
Goyf should not be seen as replacing terravore, it's replacing finks as an alternative to Tombstalker.

@Finks
They would be better if you had a more controlling strategy with Therapies and the like. Right now they just help when you cast your game winning spell. This is what I call "the danger of cool things". Your Clouds have tons of tiny interactions going on. So many that cutting the worst of all of them is acceptable. Playing the Rock is different than Loam Deathcloud Control. Also, what makes this deck better than say, 43lands.dec, Control Loam, or Eternal Garden?

[e=mc^2]

Also, what makes this deck better than say, 43lands.dec, Control Loam, or Eternal Garden?

People seem to love non-basic land hate these days and Eternal Garden and 43land.dec must wish for an answer if they can. Or they can just die to Price of Progress.

Control Loam Depends a lot more on Loam and the graveyard than this deck. I have won games with my loams Extirpated on turn 2 This deck doesn't need loam to win. It can just go board control like the Rock.

[Tao]

I think the deck needs at least 6 cycle lands because they are your main draw engine and you want to recur 2/Loam asap. I also think the deck should play Thoughtseize because otherwise it is too dependant on dredging into Raven's Crime.

You could cut Witnesses. Witness does not do much that the deck can't already do: it can recur Draw, Wastelands Discard and win conditions without Witness and Witness is really slow.

[Shabbaman]

Hey, if it works in extended it's worth a try! I was wondering why Death Cloud is better than Pox. Less life loss for you?

[e=mc^2]

Hey, if it works in extended it's worth a try! I was wondering why Death Cloud is better than Pox. Less life loss for you?

There is less life loss, but Death Cloud is also more controlable than Pox. Cloud can get rid of all of my opponents creatures. However this is just my reasoning. I haven't tested Pox.

Edit
@ Tao
Witness has not done much for me and Thoughtseize is almost the removal that witness would get back anyways, so I will try switching them this weekend.

[DeathwingZERO]

Don't run Pox. Pox is not a control card, it's an aggro card. Here's the key distinction between the decks:

-You have no acceleration to make an early game threat
-No non-creature creatures to activate
-Not playing the discard suite to back it

In other words, you have nothing to gain from it's casting. Smallpox works fine for a quick, short-term balance, that's all it's there for. Pox is there to one side your opponent, and push through damage with fast or artificial creatures. That's why it's so heavy on both land destruction and discard spells, it NEEDS to win asap, and does so by fast denial.

If you plan on cutting Witness, find a way to put in Tombstalker, seriously:

-With the exception of Loam, now all your instant and sorceries (and enchantments, I suppose) won't come back (and you are now adding more with Thoughtseize...bringing the total up to 16, not counting that you can afford to ditch "spare" Loams if you have them as well)
-You can afford to pitch STE/Finks in the late game to power out a better win condition (this brings the "stable" total of pitchable cards to 24, damn near half the deck)
-You'll have more than enough lands in both players yards to make up a slim loss to Vore (think 2-3 lands at most, if at all), and now have a flying 5/5 to make up for it
-Stalker doesn't need to drop @ BB, you can afford to pay more, you are a non-reactive control deck. What are you keeping that mana open for?

Is this really not enough to prove it's worth it? You are never going to be ditching 5-6 lands just to play the Stalker, and if you did, just ride Vore to victory if it's already out. If not, what good are those lands in the yard doing you now?

You can't dig for Vore without using Loam and Stronghold, and that requires at least a spare turn to topdeck it from the yard and draw. That's a turn you are giving the opponent to start stabilizing.

It takes a single mid/late game Death Cloud to make Vore larger than a Goyf, and counting discards from Death Cloud and Smallpox, cycling lands, and Loam recursion, chances are it'll be much bigger.

if you don't believe me, slip 2-3 in there, and playtest them. When you have what you believe to be the best time to drop it, write down the cards you had to pitch, and whether or not you even saw Vore by then (and what it cost it's P/T). Post those numbers here, or PM me if you like.

I highly doubt you're going to prove me wrong on this, though.

[e=mc^2]

If I am cutting Witnesses for Thoughtseizes then what should I cut for Tombstalker? If it is supposed to supplement Vore then those are staying. The best option would seem to be a removal card and a support creature.

[DeathwingZERO]

More than likely that is the correct call. I personally would be looking at a mixture of 2-3 cards from Deeds, Finks, and Edicts. Maybe cut 1 of each and just call it good there for a start.

I'm actually interested in this deck myself, if not just to have something fun to play every now and then. I'll see about getting this list proxied out and messing with it a bit myself, with the already opted Thoughtseize and Tombstalker changes.

[e=mc^2]

I'm glad to see someone else interested in the deck. I would love to hear about your playtesting. I only have the resources to play at the local shop on Sundays and the occasional big tournament.

[BlindMage]

This is interesting. I have a question, though: what does "STE" stand for?

[e=mc^2]

STE stands for Sakura-Tribe Elder

[BlindMage]

STE stands for Sakura-Tribe Elder

Man, I knew it was an acronym I used to use, I just couldn't put my finger on it! I haven't heard anything about STE for a while. That's kind of awesome.

Anyway, a couple things about this deck on first glance: First, there's a couple things that look weird to me, like 2-ofs ET, and Smallpox. Seems like if you play smallpox, you'd want 4. Is 2 ET really enough to see 1 a game? Do you need to see 1 a game? I've never tried this deck, but my instinct would be to play 3 to ensure I'll see one each game. Second: I'm willing to be that the Kitchen Finks haters have never played with the card. It's completely ridiculous. Think of it this way: whenever you play it, even if it is neutralized right away, you either get a mixture of tempo and card advantage, or a great deal of tempo. It of course lacks the brute force of Tarmogoyf, but is really on a similar level of power. IMO Finks is one of the more unappreciated cards in Magic.