Well, thanks for the answers guys!
I'll keep a close eye on this thread and look out for any further developement and probably re read this thread a few times to catch up on stuff I supposedly missed. :)
Btw, will there be cards in RTR that could go with this deck?
Nothing I've seen sofar. But I strongly suspect a meta shift in RTR, which will affect possible maindeck and sideboarding choices.Originally Posted by Seirei
The Magus isn't in the same league as the original. He might be playable if you decide to build around Green Sun's Zenith, but he's still a vastly inferior substitute. He dies to Lightning Bolt and has summoning sickness.
Not sure what miracle cards 12-Post would even run apart from Temporal Mastery, and you appear to be in mono-green.
I find the best way to fight OmniTell is a combination of Krosan Grip and Karakas: kill the enchantment, bounce their Emrakul. Surgical Extraction or Bojuka Bog in response to Academy Rector's death also messes up their trigger.
What is it about Merfolk that's giving you trouble? Usually, that's a pretty good matchup for 12-Post. How have your games typically been playing out?
It really depends on the type of build you want to go with (i.e., Green Sun's Zenith, U/G Show & Tell, MUD, etc.). To start, however, you'll definitely want a playset of Crop Rotation, some Pithing Needles, and a Karakas (expensive, but your best defense against a lot of decks). Personally, I'd also recommend getting a Maze of Ith or two.
A few quick observations on your decklist:
1. Khalni Garden does nothing for you in Legacy. It's just wasted tempo.
2. I recommend full playsets of Ancient Stirrings and Expedition Maps, plus a playset of Crop Rotation. The powerful tutor/dig package is really makes the mono-green version work. This also lets you play around with various utility lands and artifacts.
3. Relying on Overgrown Battlement for mana and All Is Dust for removal works against yourself. If you need early defense but can't afford Mazes, try Wall of Tanglecord. It's colorless, has high toughness, and you can give it reach to block Delvers.
Got my chance to playtest the Magus yesterday and now I see both, the advantage of playtesting and why he's so incredibly bad.
As I already expected he got killed/bounced/exiled before I even got to use him once, and also makes it hard if you want to play All is dust, but then you remember that he would die aswell. Again, I imagined that he wouldn't be that good, but I never imagined him being so bad.
Well the last matchup that I had went pretty devastating for me, exept for the time I cleared the board with All is dust. :)
Maybe I just need to play a few more games with this matchup to realy get a good estimate.
My playset of Crop Rotation arrived just in time to test it aswell, I realy like the possibilities, like a quick end of turn heal with Glimmerpost to carry you for another round, which ultimatle helped atleast once to win a game.
It was probably even the reason for me to place as 6th out of 14 at yesterdays legacy, which is a good step ahead for me. :)
I can probably get the Pithing Needles from a friend until I get my own and which leaves Karakas and the Maze as my only investment for now, but that'll be expensive enough. ^^
Please note once again that some of the cards are just a relic of the original decklist-that I didn't got the chance to sort out yet.
As for the Ancient Stirring, would it be intelligent to throw them out and get a playset of Sensei's Divining Tops? I ask this, because I find myself often in a spot where I draw 5 cards and have a hard time to bury Emrakul and Kozilek under the library just to get another cloudpost on the field. Also the fact that it's a sorcery makes it probably inferior to the Tops.
Anyway this helped a lot and I'm realy thankful for the help so far, and hope I don't derive this thread too much and this will be helpful for any other new players that want to get into this deck. :)
Seirei, use a wary eye when it comes to advice in this thread. A few of our posters have the best of intentions, but only 3-4 of the posters in this thread play this deck regularly and win with it with equal regularity. Sublime love and myself are the big players of the deck who post here with regularity. And although we don't always see eye-to-eye, we both have a strong amount of tournament testing under our belts and the experience to give personal accounts of what works and doesn't.
My suggestions for omnishow depend greatly on your build, but I have found that a krosan grip plan is greatly lacking. If you absolutely insists on a mono-green build, which a few of are posted in prior pages of this thread, then go with Spine of Ish Sah, Pithing Needle and Karakas. Pithing needle will always be on Griselbrand, Karakas is there for if they show in a dude, and you just hold Spine of Ish Sah in your hand for your show choice. The superior option, if you're running U/G, which you should be, is to run Karakas still, keep your needles in, and run Venser, Shaper Savant.
I have to board heavily against Omnishow since I run Show & Tell on the main, which sublimelove doesn't. I have tested Sublimelove's list against the field and am regularly boggled at how reliant it is at pairings for success. My build allows for significantly more pairing wiggle room, but requires running riskier cards like Show & Tell, which require this excessive sideboarding I am speaking of. If you still insist on a mono-green version and are looking for added utility out of your spine of ish Sah's, dont' be tempted to run cards like Core of Phyrexia. Just run more spines. I was running 3x Spine of Ish Sah in my sideboard for awhile for this exact reason.
You are wise to be afraid of Merfolk. Of all the tribal decks (minus elves, elves can go to hell) it is the hardest matchup. Fortunately, the existence of Maverick and Rug means that Merfolk is being ground into the ground beyond words. If you are finding you are still having Merfolk issues, I suggest going up All is Dust count or Devastation Tide count.
for reference, here are both Dan Hall and my current lists from the most recent event both of us top 8'd with:
Dan Hall:
2 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 Primeval Titan
4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation
2 All is Dust
3 Devastation Tide
4 Temporal Mastery
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
4 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Diving Top
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Forest
4 Glimmerpost
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 vesuva
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Stifle
1 Bojuka Bog
4 flusterstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Echoing Truth
Jer Rudolph:
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
1 bojuka Bog
4 Tropical Island
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Primeval Titan
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sensei's DiviningTop
4 Repeal
3 Expedition Map
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Pithing Needle
4 Show and Tell
4 Brainstorm
sb:
2 Spine of ish sah
2 Elephant grass
2 Spell Pierce
2 Cursed Totem
4 Flusterstorm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell vale
2 Chalice of the Void
As you can see, two difference approaches. Dan attacks the problem with redundancy, and I do it with a combo aspect. Both ideas have merit and really come down to meta calls on what archetypes are dominant. You'll notice Dan has a sparse sideboard against combo whereas my entire 15 are devoted to combo. Just our own meta calls relative to our mainboard again.
Perhaps the most important aspect of Turbo Eldrazi is that because you are dealing with a deck that has an absurdly high mana-curve, the cardpool is incredibly large and thus wild and fantastic ideas are more viable than they are in other archetypes. This is both a blessing and a curse. I would suggest you familiarize yourself with the tried-and-true versions of the deck that are winning prize and events first before deviating down these paths and taking the advice of people who have also recently picked up the deck.
That being said, feel free to ask questions, I just abhor answering questions that could be answered with a single thread-search using the forum options.
Wow that was a great bunch of information! Thanks for that! :D
On a quick sidenote: I don't insist on playing mono-green, it's just merely my only option untill I get my hands on the needed dual lands. I'll take a thorough look into both decklists and try to adapt to them.
Once again thanks for taking the time to explain everything in such great detail.
Btw, with only one Candelabra in your list, what exactly do you do if it gets countered or somehow lands in your graveyard? It seems like you have nothing to get it back again. Is that, because this usually only happens late enough in the game when your manapool is big enough?
I run low candelabra count because I feel that Wasteland-reliant decks are stronger in the format at the moment, aggro can be beaten without it (no merfolk with B2B for game 2), and Candelabra doesn't give you pivotal turns against combo (3 mana by turn 2) or control (2 mana by turn 2).
Ultimately, I find that candelabra is weaker in the format. I have tested builds without it, and I find them weaker. I've also tested builds with 2 candelabra, so I'm not even implying that Candelabra doesn't belong in the deck (sorry econo builders). The candelabra count is simply a reflection of the rest of the decks in the format and the deck's need to alter its speed relative to them.
To specifically answer the question though, I have never said to myself "god I just need my countered candelabra back," which is why I run a low count of them. Smarter players will counter the Sensei's Divining Tops or Expedition maps over a Candelabra of Tawnos, since less selection and fixing means that Candelabra is weaker, and significantly so.
Good to know, so do I understand that right, that the candelabra is just another utility card, so it's very good but not the one and only 'key' card in this deck?
Because that was my assumption here, since it seemed increadably important.
Anyway that's good to know since I won't be able to get one for a while. ^^
yes Candelabra is an accelerent that has synergy with repeal, but that's about it. Its outlier purposes are countering rishadan port, back to basics, and choke. Additionally it eats lots of counterspells, which is a good thing.
I would play both. Top is a fantastic card, but don't underestimate Ancient Stirrings. Digging 5 cards deep for one mana is an incredible rate. Ancient Stirrings isn't just about finding Cloudposts, however. It also finds answers (All Is Dust, Pithing Needle, etc.), win conditions (Eldrazi), tutors (Expedition Map, Eye of Ugin), and Tops. Exactly how powerful it is will depend on your build. My deck is about 75% colorless, which means I never truly miss; at worst, I'll get a forest. And I prefer to play more Ancient Stirrings than Tops because I'm always happy to see multiple Ancient Stirrings in hand, whereas I rarely want to see more than one Top per game.
The fact that Ancient Stirrings is a sorcery isn't a big deal - it's basically the deck's Ponder. And like Ponder, Brainstorm, and other similar cards, Ancient Stirrings is very much a skill-testing card. It's not a card you want to cast blindly - you should know what you're looking for before you go digging. Finding an Eldrazi when you want one usually isn't difficult in a mono-green build.
Candelabra isn't a key card in that you can still play without it, but it's very, very, very good.
The most important thing about Candelabra is that it lets you get by on fewer Posts, making you faster and less vulnerable to Wasteland.
With one Candelabra in play:
1x Cloudpost, 2x Glimmerpost = 7 mana (All Is Dust)
2x Cloudpost, 1x Glimmerpost = 12 mana (Kozilek, Ulamog)
3x Cloudpost = 15 mana (Emrakul)
With two Candelabras in play:
1x Cloudpost, 2x Glimmerpost = 9 mana (All Is Dust + Spell Pierce tax)
2x Cloudpost, 1x Glimmerpost = 16 mana (Emrakul)
3x Cloudpost = 21 mana (Eye activation + Emrakul)
In addition to mana, however, Candelabra has great synergy with Maze of Ith. A single Candelabra effectively doubles the number of Mazes you have on the field. One of the reasons I usually have very little trouble with decks like Merfolk or Delver is that this lets me keep their army at bay until I'm able to resolve All Is Dust.
Finally, it's not irrelevant that Candelabra can untap Eye of Ugin to let you tutor for multiple Eldrazi or get shuffle effects for Top. I can't count the number of games I've won by drawing a Candelabra off of Kozilek and using it to immediately ramp into Emrakul.
Also, if you're having trouble with Merfolk or other aggro decks, you might want to try out Powder Keg in your sideboard. It's very similar to Ratchet Bomb but can take out artifact lands (vs Affinity) and manlands (Mutavault). Most of Merfolk's creatures are CMC 2, making Powder Keg a solid turn 2 play. It's also great against Delver, Dredge, and Storm (for Empty the Warrens).
From my experience, the Merfolk matchup can be fairly challenging because it plays like a faster version of rug vs this deck. I've found elephant grass+tabernacle is usually enough to stall for a couple of turns to set up enough lands. I'm a bit wary of things like ratchet bomb and powder keg because of how long it takes to get up to 2 counters to wipe them and it doesn't really stop vial or anything else. (if you choose to blow it for 1, they'll just keep dropping lords which will quickly overwhelm you.)
Grip seems bad versus omniscience because, as was mentioned before, once they have the omniscience, they can cast something without passing priority, making the grip just look dumb. The only exception to this is if you put something down with a etb trigger and you can respond to the trigger with a grip. Before they get priority to cast w/e they want to.
They're really only good vs Merfolk if you drop them right away, so that you can blow it at 2 counters by turn 4 (which is when their board presence usually reaches a critical mass of 2-drop lords anyway). Otherwise, I agree that it's too slow.
It's in my board mostly to blow up at 0 vs Delver, Affinity, Dredge, and Storm or at 1 vs Zoo and Delver. But it's not a bad card to have in your opening hand vs Merfolk, since so much of that deck is at the 2 slot.
Grip really only works here if it's paired with Karakas. Once they use Omni to cast an Emrakul, they have to pass priority before they can attack you (since they have to end the turn and take another). At that point, I usually bounce Emrakul and then Grip in response to Karakas. They still get their extra turn, but it tends to slow them down most of the time. It's not the most elegant solution.
Hey rock lee,
I did not know die hard post the deck lists of top 8
Can u post a link for me please
If you have a karakas on the field, venser seems better on all counts (only if you're running blue ofc), but you can just in into play off of snt and bounce it in response to them casting another one. It's basically a lock versus the non rector versions.
the link.
I personally found that spine of Ish sah performed better. I am running venser atm, but only because I have FoW in the sideboard and want the blue count desperately. With Spine of Ish Sah, getting 2 cards out of their combo instead of giving them back half of it was stronger. Obviously the difference isn't that enormous if I'm willing to go to the weaker option simply for the sake of blue cards, but I suggest Ish Sah over Venser for the Omni/Sneaky matchup.
Do you pair Spine with Phyrexia's Core or use it purely as a one-time Vindicate against S&T?
My initial kneejerk reaction was 'omg deck of land tutors this will be great!' and then I realized that unlike karakas, phyrexia's core in hand is 100% dead when they cast show & tell. If you are running mono-green, and are considering spine, just add another spine where you would find room for phyrexia's core.
I'm thinking about adding Spines to the board to replace Boseiju and maybe Krosan Grip #4. Boseiju's been there for a while to push All Is Dust through hard counters in the Delver matchup, but I've realized that (1) I never actually tutor for it over a Maze or Bog, and (2) Delver's already a good matchup for me without it. Spine seems really sweet tech though, so I'm definitely going to try it out. And I think you're probably right about rather just having another Spine over a Phyrexia's Core.
I've read somewhere that Rock Lee mentioned a mono-blue list.
I'm already toying with a similar idea that features 3 Pithing Needle maindeck (a card that's incredibly busted when Tribal is on the rise again and Wasteland is played by a lot of good decks), probably 3 Thirst for Knowledge (replacement for Trinket Mage), 4 Expedition Map, and so on.
I know that giving up on Crop Rotation is a huge loss because of the tricks it allows, but I tend to play very conservatively not trying to put it all into an as-fast-as-possible, combo-esque fashion. I also enjoy never tapping out and playing 7 counters, so that I don't scoop cold to combo pre-board (running 3 Negates at the moment, they're behaving really good).
I feel this deck is very positioned as of now since no one knows how to fight it, has auto-wins against Miracle and provides great flexibility in deckbuilding; I just fear Abrupt Decay when it'll turn legal because it will be played on Pithing Needle by BUG variations that usually rely heavily on Waste-Loaming in the late-game, which may turn to be a problem.
Anyways, has anyone tried this route?
Edit: monoblue version really folds to Maverick, btw, despites Devastation Tide.
Last edited by Piceli89; 10-02-2012 at 07:40 PM.
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