Can you post your current list in full?Originally Posted by pettdan
Well, I was trying to avoid for a couple of reasons but it's a reasonable request so here it is. Numbers in the parentheses are related to Leshrac's version [edit: or rather, one of them]. The sideboard is work in progress. I'm not sure this is a better approach but I'm trying some things. I messed up a bit when changing things around though, the plan was to have 4 Verdant Catacombs but turns out I had miscounted so the second Collective Brutality is over a 7th fetch which may or may not work out.
61 Cards Maindeck:
Lands (26):
4 Cloudpost
2 Glimmerpost (-1)
2 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
0 Eye of Ugin (-1)
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Verdant Catacombs (+0)
3 Windswept Heath (+1)
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
Creatures (15):
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
0 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger (-1)
0 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (-1)
2 Walking Ballista (+2)
Spells (20):
1 Mox Diamond (-2)
3 Crop Rotation (-1)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Lingering Souls (+2)
2 Collective Brutality (+2)
Sideboard (15):
Anti-combo package, playing t1 hatebear is pretty strong:
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Phyrexian Revoker
Fair deck package:
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Plague
1 Choke
For stuff like burn, elves, depths to buy time. Very loose slot.
1 Glacial Chasm
Graveyard hate:
2 Surgical Extraction
Double up on key pieces, mostly Engineered Plague but also Thorn of Amethyst and Ethersworn Canonist. Loses some value since Mox Diamond lets you play a hatebear t1, so this may be better used as another hatebear or I need to add some impactful enchantment, I want something vs Elves and Food Chain:
1 Enlightened Tutor
Important stuff that I removed from the maindeck to bring in sideboard cards (Souls + Brutality). Very loose slots but they help with quick interaction vs combo and mana denial, working around Blood Moon etc:
1 Crop Rotation
1 Mox Diamond
Last edited by pettdan; 09-17-2017 at 05:38 PM.
Has anyone considered Shaper's Sanctuary?
One mana, doesn't stretch us to blue, and has an effect similar to Leovolds.
First of all Navsi, congratulations! Feels great to see someone on the other side of the world succeeding with BUG Fit.
Couple of questions,
The list you posted runs 64 maindeck, feels like a lot :o
From your report the Fierce Empath with 2 emerging Eldrazis seem to do a lot of good work. Were there times where there was no emerge fodder and how you mitigate that type of situation when under tempo pressure?
How is the spicy Emrakul, the Promised End in the sideboard?
Seeing that you play new emmy, I have also experimented with Arianhod's tech of Traverse + Ishkanah. It feels great tbh and DRS can be annoying sometimes.
Does nothing on its own, though. It does replace creatures getting killed by spells/abilities, but does (effectively) not replace itself (and yes, this comes from the guy that runs multiple Mirri's Guile).
64 maindeck : I originally had a more reasonable 61, but was worried about lack of early interaction so jammed 2 Thoughtseize in. I felt the land count was a bit low for the extra nonlands then, so added a second Underground Sea. Only twice did I need to topdeck a specific card and have trouble finding it, once vs d&t (ripped basic Island to Deluge for the win) and once vs lands (needed Strix or TTS, didn't find it). I think the Thoughtseizes should probably be Cliques and add an extra Deathrite though.
I never had an issue with Emerge fodder. One game against Storm I decided I would rather have Leovold in play + drs mana up than Mindbender him, but I'm pretty sure either line was a kill anyway. More Cliques would help here too. Can always pitch to Brutality if it's not castable. Emerge guys were better every time than Primeval would have been. Primeval is probably getting cut, or at least at risk of. He got sided out every game except Miracles and Pile.
Emrakul was solid. He came in two games - Miracles and Pile. Vs. Miracles he ate a Terminus, but set up for a lethal Nissa ult. Vs. Pile I was super behind on board but he was still like a 5 for 1. He didn't quite stabilize but I think I could possibly have made it if I had played the Mindslaver correctly.
I do not like Traverse. I don't think it is an acceptable replacement for Zenith - not getting early game Explorers is a major issue - and I don't think it's utility late game makes up for it. With Empath, Zenith does everything I need it to anyway.
- Traverse runs in tandem to support GSZ, not replacing GSZ. I like how Traverse circumvents Cage and Containment Priest effects
- I thought the previous Standard format where we Traverse for Newrakul for the win would work. Great to see that she is brought in to break the grindy matchups wide.
- I dislike Brutality, but that is just me not because card is bad. I like the idea of Empath searching for and providing emerge fodder body for the Emerge Eldrazis. Will seriously consider the Emerge fellas.
I haven't seen many Cages or Containment Priests recently. I can see your point about supplementing Zenith, but Traverses in those slots feels like a filler card which is there to smooth things out, but most of the slots in the deck right now are either answers, card advantage, threats, or multiple of the above - Traverse isn't really any of those. If I needed more cards and didnt want anything that actively solves some specific problem, Traverse might go in, but currently I am low on space rather than running more.- Traverse runs in tandem to support GSZ, not replacing GSZ. I like how Traverse circumvents Cage and Containment Priest effects
- I thought the previous Standard format where we Traverse for Newrakul for the win would work. Great to see that she is brought in to break the grindy matchups wide.
- I dislike Brutality, but that is just me not because card is bad. I like the idea of Empath searching for and providing emerge fodder body for the Emerge Eldrazis. Will seriously consider the Emerge fellas.
Elder Deep Fiend was excellent. Distended Mindbender was a lot less impressive. I am considering going to 2 EDF and 0 DMB.
Another creature I am considering putting in is Avatar of Woe. Might need to up the creature count a bit, but if I can get to cast it for 2 with any reliability it's a beast.
10 creatures in graveyards is a lot to ask. You might be better off with Visara the Dreadful, although the manacost might be too prohibitive. Or Sheoldred, Whispering One. That thing generates a lot of value. But that 7 mana...
I'm mainly looking for something I can Empath for that doesn't cost a flat 6+ mana. Avatar at least gets around that sometimes. I would go for Delve creatures, but they have pretty awkward anti-synergy with Emrakul. I guess I could run a Delve guy and just swap it out for Emrakul against control decks.
It's unfortunate that you arent' in white. Karador, Ghost Chieftain could make an appearance here.
I actually prefer Ishkanah. Would you also explain or maybe give examples where Deep Fiend's tap 4 shined? the UU cost can sometimes be a real hassle.
I sort of miss white but the BUG Fit is very taxing on colour requirements. I am using Meren in this slot
The Flash was actually more important than the tap 4 to be honest. Six toughness is also pretty massive.
Stuff deep-fiend did:
- Flash in and eat a Mirran crusader while tapping down d&t's vial and lands
- Block Gurmag Anglers
- Fog an Inkmoth for a turn while I dig for removal
- Eat a Brimaz
- Turn up in response to removal on Tracker
- Survive a Deluge for 5 (to kill a Batterskull'd Flickerwisp) and swing for lethal the turn after.
I would indeed love white (mainly for Swords tbh) but the manabase is just too unstable.
For when you need a really meta nic fit deck:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Tireless Tracker
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Helm of Obedience
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Nissa, Vital Force
4 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Phyrexian Tower
side:
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lost Legacy
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Choke
1 Fatal Push
1 Toxic Deluge
1 To the Slaughter
Went 3-2 in a mtgo league with something close to this last night. Working on tuning it a bit as it actually surprised me. Will come back later if more testing shows promise. Sideboard needs refinement. Open to suggestions. Loving the quad trackers and I've been missing them since being on Nyx for so long.
damn that's spicy. i wouldn't have thought to put helm+RIP into a nic fit shell, but 4+1 is still a lot of mana in legacy so i guess that makes sense.
do you find you're able to reliably get the combo out? is your midrange backup plan strong enough if that fails or are you just biding time with trackers? definitely a sweet-looking list.
Last night I was running with only 1 Intent and it still didn't take too long to find the Helm when needed. Intent seemed great, was able to animate a land with Nissa for it one game, fetch into an Arbor for it another game. Won every game with the combo, although the D&T match I lost due to timing out might have been won by playing a second tracker and going ham (first had over 5 counters on it). I was just a couple turns away from Deeding his board and then comboing though. 4 trackers is imo a splendid thing to be doing since it is both pressure + card draw. Might try -1 Deed +1 Deluge main in order to avoid losing clues. What's also fun is that E Witness and Nissa are both able to buy back combo pieces, both of which can't be eaten by DRS. Nissa is further pressure if needed in that regard, although I ult'd her once last night while I had 2 fetches in hand and that dug me into both combo pieces against Bomberman.
Below is the list I have been tinkering with
Maindeck (60)
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nissa, Vital Force
4 Brainstorm
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Sideboard (15)
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Divert
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague
There are definitely times where I cannot achieve delirium on time. RIP and GY replacement exile effects definitely hit quite hard but I really love the 10 cantrip core of Brainstorm/GSZ/Traverse which allowed me to drop to 20 lands and enjoy the less flood less screw which Arianhod was talking about. Ishkanah overperforms as did Grave Titan. The 4 life loss in board stalls was awesome. Cannot find anything to cut for Deep Fiend thou and I also want to cut 1 card for either Brutality or Hymn/TS.
I would only run Deep Fiend with Fierce Empath. Without it you can't search him up and he's significantly less useful. Traverse is nice but I don't think it is right for EDF.
I think running less than 4 Zeniths in most builds just isn't right - I don't see any real times when Traverse is any better than Zenith, but there are lots of times when you want Zenith over Traverse, so I don't see why you wouldn't run 4 Zeniths and less Traverses.
I prefer Brutality over Push - mainly because it has text against combo, and helps our bad Burn matchup. There aren't that many big dumb creatures that die to push but not Brutality, and most of those have trouble with Baleful Strix.
It is a little meta slanted. Push is mostly for opposing DRS because DRS does not hit into strix. I agree that no Empath, Deep Friend is much weaker.
I did some self debate quite some time in pushing GSZ down to 3 for the longest time. Ultimately I caved in because running 20 lands require some increased number of cantrip or land tutor effects. Call it deck thinning for early game, late game to have more live topdecks.
Burn: I got a couple of Burn in meta, usually not much problems with them as Therapy and Swagtusk does a lot of work. Snapcaster and Divert in sb is very stupid against them. I want a 5th discard slot still and pending between Brutality or TS but have yet to find the space for it.
I agree with Navsi on Push in general, it's not all that great. I also run Brutality over Push.
20 lands feels far too low.
Navsi is doing it right at 24 (64 cards aside, but even that isn't that bad).
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