[Deck] Turbo Depths

[ComplexPants]

I don't think Crop Rotation will help in most scenarios. Your opponent will likely try to hold Assassin's Trophy until after your Dark Depths has the counters removed (i.e., you've already lost your original Depths or your Vampire Hexmage). In response to the Marit Lage trigger they will attempt to destroy your Depths. You could Rotate the zero counter Depths but you were going to get a basic land from the Trophy anyway. If you happen to have another land to Rotate and another two mana, then sure, you could bring in another Stage and copy the Depths but that's a ton of mana and resources.

EDIT: I guess in the above scenario Trophy essentially a Ghost Quarter that you can't stop with Pithing Needle or force into action with your own Ghost Quarter. You can only force it into action with targeted discard.

For this reason I think crucible is going to be a lot more important out of the board, or even main.

[crowe_1]

Unfortunately Crucible dies to AT as well.

/pessimism.

[Mr. Safety]

Unfortunately Crucible dies to AT as well.

/pessimism.

If they're killing Crucible, they aren't killing Depths. Same as Needle argument; if they have 2, you have to find a way to work around it. If I'm going to play a Crucible/Loam effect out of the board I would probably choose Ramanup Excavator (I have a maindeck GSZ) or even Grim Discovery (which literally gives me back the 2 combo cards of Hexmage/Depths.) Crucible doesn't offer enough; Grim is more mana efficient and objectively more powerful if you only need one Crucible activation. Excavator beats face. I might even consider Eternal Witness first, even though it's more green-intensive. We aren't recurring Wasteland/Factories, and we already have redundancy in our combo, such as Scrying/Map, to get a 2nd shot. I'm skeptical of how good Crucible would be, but I am still fairly new to the deck.

EDIT: Nissa, Vital Force doesn't seem the worst (in fast mana lists) at being an alternative threat, one that might even flush out an AssTrophy so our Depths plan stays intact. Not advocating, just spitballing.

[ComplexPants]

A 5 mana spell better win you the game. She doesn't do that.

[Mr. Safety]

A 5 mana spell better win you the game. She doesn't do that.

On the spot? No. Over a few turns? Yes. She's pure card advantage + threat. Nic fit loves her.

[filln]

On the spot? No. Over a few turns? Yes. She's pure card advantage + threat. Nic fit loves her.

She was played in the Lands sideboard right at the end of the Miracles CounterTop era. Not sure how much I like her here but I would be open to testing out a Liliana, the Last Hope. Helps pick off random small things (Strix, helps in our terrible D&T matchup), can return a Hexmage from the graveyard, and has a game-winning ult.

[adrieng]

Did anyone tested raven's crime
instead of HTT in side for combo matchups ; i think it is better than hymn vs storm and show and tell where we play first targeted discard then finish them with redundant discard avoiding topdecks

[ComplexPants]

On the spot? No. Over a few turns? Yes. She's pure card advantage + threat. Nic fit loves her.

We are not a value deck like Lands or Nic Fit though. This is a fast combo deck aimed at ending games ASAP or when an opponent makes a mistake. The Last hope makes a lot more sense.

[Mr. Safety]

We are not a value deck like Lands or Nic Fit though. This is a fast combo deck aimed at ending games ASAP or when an opponent makes a mistake. The Last hope makes a lot more sense.

Agreed. I was on Lily with slow depths

[Negator77']

Did anyone tested raven's crime
instead of HTT in side for combo matchups ; i think it is better than hymn vs storm and show and tell where we play first targeted discard then finish them with redundant discard avoiding topdecks

Raven's Crime requires a value engine attached before it is good enough imo. BG is often a 23-24 land deck. There is no realistic way to consistently use this more than once and build toward the combo in the first few turns without something like Loam. If you are going down that path, entomb would probably be involved... but one of the best advantages Depths currently has is not needing to use the graveyard.

This isn't a great card vs Storm anyway. ANT players will play out artifact mana, protect game winning spells with b-storm, and eventually kill you with a topdeck if you give them enough time. It's worse than at least 5 discard options we have (Seize, Duress, IOK, Hymn, Therapy) and probably worse than the narrow ones like Encroach too.

[adrieng]

yeah you are right I just tested raven's crime it was underwhelming.

[jolssoni]

I think I'll try swapping 4 Duress to 4 Trophy main next month, gives you more game vs DNT/Lands and the like g1 and should also work better vs Miracles g1 since you don't have to scoop to a Jace/Mentor if you can't go off. Sinkhole'ing Delver isn't too bad either. 4 sb slots that used to be Decay can probably be replaced with more discard or some funky 1-ofs like Loam?

[Mr. Safety]

I think I'll try swapping 4 Duress to 4 Trophy main next month, gives you more game vs DNT/Lands and the like g1 and should also work better vs Miracles g1 since you don't have to scoop to a Jace/Mentor if you can't go off. Sinkhole'ing Delver isn't too bad either. 4 sb slots that used to be Decay can probably be replaced with more discard or some funky 1-ofs like Loam?

I don't think you want less than 6 maindeck targeted discard. I've played up to 3 decay in the main, 2 was decent, but I really like the more efficient discard to combo fast. I really don't think ass trophy adds that much to this deck. I am happy to be proven wrong.

[jolssoni]

I don't think you want less than 6 maindeck targeted discard. I've played up to 3 decay in the main, 2 was decent, but I really like the more efficient discard to combo fast.

Yeah actually after thinking about it I think it's finally time for Lotus Petal to go for something like 7 discard+3-4 trophy main. I never liked the card and going off turn 2 is possible even without a single piece of fast mana.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah actually after thinking about it I think it's finally time for Lotus Petal to go for something like 7 discard+3-4 trophy main. I never liked the card and going off turn 2 is possible even without a single piece of fast mana.

Fast mana lets you play around daze and enables the slow tutors (scrying/map) without slowing you dpwn. It also let's you play discard and combo the same turn. I'm sold on 7 fast mana (4 petal 3 esg.)

[jolssoni]

Fast mana lets you play around daze and enables the slow tutors (scrying/map) without slowing you dpwn. It also let's you play discard and combo the same turn. I'm sold on 7 fast mana (4 petal 3 esg.)

I haven't really cared about Daze personally since the DRS ban. I get the upsides but I think Trophy just gives you unreal percentages where none existed before and I don't like the idea of cutting anything else.
For reference

4 Assassin's Trophy
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Duress
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Expedition Map
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
4 Pithing Needle
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Swamp
3 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Thoughtseize
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Verdant Catacombs

1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3 Sphere variants and/or Mindbreak Trap
3 Dread of Night (This might be overkill with 4 Trophy, taking suggestions)
1 Life from the Loam
2 Rite of Consumption
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Sylvan Library

[ComplexPants]

I wouldn't overlook abrupt in the board. Being uncounterable is worth something against Grixis control, Shadow and Delver decks. I also think 4x Ass Trophies might be too much. I might consider 2-3. We are not looking to answer things game 1, we are trying to do our game plan of making Merit ASAP.

Also, loam is a bad card in this deck. If you want a recurrence engine go with Crucible or Ramunap excavator.

[jolssoni]

Also, loam is a bad card in this deck.

Yeah you might be right, the original idea was a way to "try again" against the other Loam decks after the game drags on if you can't find a Rite of Consumption. Might try out Choke at weeklies.

[Mr. Safety]

I agree with ComplexPants; we aren't trying to play fair and trade resources until we can win the game, we're trying to get them dead ASAP. When we sideboard in Abrupt Decay or other removal, we aren't trying to play fair. We're trying to answer our opponent's sideboard plan. I also agree that Crucible/Ramanup Excavator are both superior to Loam. We aren't recurring Wastelands, tutoring with gamble, or cycling lands into a draw engine. I got DNSolver's take on Loam in one of his streams: if you want to utilize Loam it's a different approach and RG lands is a much better loam deck.

Choke on the other hand seems decent. I keep trying to cram 2-3 copies into my sideboard as well. The fair blue matchups can be deceptively complex, but Choke takes away that factor and makes it a fairly simple (if not easy) game. Again, fast mana shines here because you can deploy it before t3 or deploy it with less than 3 lands on the battlefield, possibly catching a Miracles player tapped out to play cantrips.

I still haven't answered these questions for myself:

1) What does Assassin's Trophy do for this deck that I didn't already have access to?
2) What matchups does it improve?
3) Is it powerful enough to concede the possibility of it being countered?

[ComplexPants]

This card is not good for us or basically all of combo in legacy. In Shadow, Grixis control, or delver it seems like bad news unless we can combo asap.