[Deck] B/W Stax, Braidstax

[Lego]

I'd say it is a possible baord card that I would only play as a 4-of (not seeing it in your opening hand makes it a poor card), but the question is whether it is game breaking enough to warrant 4 sideboard slots, and a mulligan or two to get it. I'd probably say yes, but then again, Threshold should be your best matchup if the deck is built properly.

[outsideangel]

Suppression Field is actually not as devastating against Gro as people seem to think. Sure, it's good, but consider:

Gro plays at most around 10 Fetchlands. About 8 is standard. To be really effective, they need to keep a hand with 2 Fetchlands, or Field needs to come down first turn on the play. Any smart Gro player will play out their fetchlands or basics first, and with only a couple basics in the deck, they're most likely to drop a fetchland first turn. To keep them off of 2 mana, you'd need to drop Field first turn, which requires a mox, two land, and the field, and be playing first.

This doesn't mean that Suppression Field isn't good, as it can often buy you one or more free turns, when they have to spend their mana to pop a fetchland. It's also good if you can follow it up with a Wasteland. However, Suppression Field is hardly the end-all be-all of the Gro matchup, is weaker than Chalice, Trinisphere, or Crucible + Wasteland/Stack/Braids, and definitely won't win you the match on its own.

Ensnaring Bridge stops both Mystic Enforcer and Fledgling Dragon, doesn't cost colored mana, and costs 1 less than Moat, making it better in the face of Daze.

I'd like to include Trinisphere in this deck, definitely, but I have trouble finding room. Maybe it's time to consider losing the crutch that is Vindicate? Vindicate's been really good to me, and pulled me out of some tight situations, but I can't shake the feeling that this deck shouldn't need it. What do you guys think? If we worked in 3 Trinispheres, it'd make the deck better at going turbo-lock. What do we remove?

[Lego]

I'm not trying to say that Suppression Field is better than Chalice, Trinisphere, Crucible/Waste, or Tangle Wire, I'm simply saying it's hellagood.

You forgot the instances when they keep a one land hand (which I will do a lot with a couple of Serum Visions when playing that deck) that is only a fetchland on the draw. I'll almost always keep a hand of Fetch, Serum Vision, Serum Visions, Daze, Nimble Mongoose, Werebear, Force, or anything moderately close to that. In that case, you've just won the game with that Suppression Field. And yes, this has happened to me more than once.

And I would pay 1W to remove 8 lands from my opponent's deck any day, I don't know about you.

[outsideangel]

Even if they keep a one-land hand, you still have to have a hand with 2 lands, a Mox Diamond, and a Suppression Field, and be playing first.
24/60, 23/59, 4/58, 4/57, 1/2
or (rounded to 5 places)
.4 x .38983 x .06896 x .07017 x.5
equals roughly .000377. Of course, your chances are somewhat better than that, seeing as how you get to draw 3 extra cards, but still, that's not a very high number, not enough to rely on. This is similar to the whole 1st-turn Trinisphere deal. Sure, it's awesome, and it can happen, it just won't very often.

Again, don't mistake this for me saying Suppression Field isn't good. It is, most definitely. In fact, waaaay back when, I was one of the very few people to advocate Suppression Field's inclusion in Angel Stax. People thought I was crazy because I cut Powder Keg and Rishadan Port to run it. Just don't count on it to completelly win you games with any regularity. Suppression Field, in most situations, slows them down, and does so extraordinarily well, until you combine it with another lock piece, like Smokestack.

Also, when you topdeck Suppression Field after Gro has already dropped 3 lands, it sucks pretty hardcore.

[Machinus]

Even if they keep a one-land hand, you still have to have a hand with 2 lands, a Mox Diamond, and a Suppression Field, and be playing first.
24/60, 23/59, 4/58, 4/57, 1/2
or (rounded to 5 places)
.4 x .38983 x .06896 x .07017 x.5
equals roughly .000377. Of course, your chances are somewhat better than that, seeing as how you get to draw 3 extra cards, but still, that's not a very high number, not enough to rely on. This is similar to the whole 1st-turn Trinisphere deal. Sure, it's awesome, and it can happen, it just won't very often.

This math is terrible. Please don't make up probabilistic arguments if you aren't familiar with the mathematics.

Suppression Field can manascrew your opponent, but it is mostly there to slow them down. Eight-fetchland decks have to struggle a lot more to generate tempo with a Field out. As a bonus, Field basically stops most activated ability strategies, like Salvagers, Tog, Mongrel, Ravager, Time Vault, etc., and significantly slows down strong cards like AEther Vial. Field is in the deck because it generally slows down the opponent, and also occasionally wins the game.

[Lego]

That's the thing though, you don't need it first turn, against any deck. Against Gro first turn it will sometimes just win you the game. Against other things it will buy you enough time to set up a better lock. I was just saying that you have so many good plays against Gro, one of them being Suppression Field, that the matchup should be way in your favor. If I expect any Stax, I simply don't play Thresh, that's it.

Although I'm playing it this weekend, and boarding Energy Flux Hope I get to 3 mana :-D Maybe Kataki is better.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I question whether Stax decks really have what it takes to Top 8 in tourneys. I say this because I have played many matches online and won game 1 then using my sideboard been able to stretch G2 out into a hour long ordeal without playing slow even with a deck that should have been handed its ass by stax. Also I've had game 1 itself stretch to over an hour when I refused to concede even though I had no chance of winning (he finally killed me with 3 cards left in my library). As well as the many times I've won the game on the back of a 1/1 creature and the 14 or so turn clock (ancient tombage). Simply put this deck is sooooo slow I feel it oftens screws itself out of wins, and seems to almost rely at times on the opponent scooping when times get tough (especially game 2 after a loss and god forbid you go to game 3 I don't know many opponents that are going to scoop it up when they could just keep playing and draw you out).

[Lego]

I've had a problem going to time once, and it was a Solidarity deck, and he only did it so that he wouldn't get the 1-0 loss. He stalled the game, not me.

I find that 4 Exalted Angel is just plenty for win conditions, the chances of you not drawing one are astronomically low. The first 5-10 turns are used to lock down the game, that's where you win or lose. After you've locked down the game, just wait until you draw your win, wait until it's sufficiently protected, and win.

I'm fine with playing a deck that 1-0 wins every time, because it does 1-0 Win, all the time. I've T8ed several local tournaments with this deck because it simply wins against Gro, has great game against Goblins, and murders most combo. Play it a bunch until you know how to mulligan, and what pieces to play when against which decks, and you'll be fine.

Oh yeah, and play Angel Stax instead What matchups have you been having problems with?

[dontbiteitholmes]

No I'm saying I was playing against Stax with a deck that should have gotten whipped by it (Enchantress and he had MD fields). Then I beat him G1 and we played G2 and neither one of us stalled just through the course of normal game descidions (which were a lot of hard ones and made frequently using massive time) we took wayyy over an hour for G2. I also see this being a problem if anyone runs this in a major tourney, stalling is particulary hard to spot especially in a deck which opens many complex options and I wouldn't be surprised either way if a stalling call worked for or against you. Not to mention if you won G1 people would be real quick to call a judge over to watch for stalling which could be a bitch depending on the situation and the judge.

[Bane of the Living]

Thats not really true after a while.

I've played almost every deck archtype in legacy extensively enough to know how the deck works. I'm not braggin I just love this format, and I've played mostly standard and extended for a while so that makes me know alot of newer decks very well already.

And the good news..?

You'll find once you learn the ins and outs of the deck your playing VERY well, you'll play it amazingly better. Don't tell me you've never seen a REALLY good affinity player right? The guy that goes 8-0? It's not always the deck. It's the player. There is alot of player depth in this deck, so much infact, that it feels like it just fish bowls to someone not familiar with it. I think about the 50th game with this deck is when I realized what needs to come down in what order and what to hold back against so many decks.

I think of playing this deck kind of like Simon Says :shock:

Anywho..
This deck will naturally play better quicker games when you know what to do. You need to think of alot of puzzle questions in each card as well.

What do I set chalice to, what do I tap down with tangle wire. Could I play smokestack now?

When you can figure those things out better you'll know how to play quicker games. I've noticed a lot of people that "out play" me are people that quickly dish out their threats swiftly and professionally. It greats opposition where you don't feel you can make slow choices against him.

-People that dont know how to play against stax can crumble to it.-

Learn to play this deck quickly and it will rack you the wins!
Sorry for the long drool post/article.

[Lego]

I've got to agree wholeheartedly with Bane on this one. If you sit down and test 100 different games against 100 different decks, your matches won't be taking anywhere near an hour anymore. Some options are easy, like when you open up Plains, Plains, Wasteland, Mox Diamond, Chalice of the Void, Tangle Wire, Crucible of Worlds against Gro, you keep it, and your first few plays are already spelled out for you. Other times it gets harder, but you'll figure it out, and you'll just be able to look at the board, think about what has already happened, and know when to drop that Tangle Wire, when the Stack needs to go to 2, and when it's time to sacrifice your Stack at 2.

Play it a lot, until it becomes second nature and you can play it in your sleep. You won't have any more time issues :)

[Citrus-God]

Ditto, the deck takes heavy practice. It's all about decisions and options. The deck plays like Uba Stax minus the draw engine. You have to decide how your going to play your lock components. Like...

"hmm... I'm going first versus Gro, what do I do, play Defense Grid first, or Chalice for 1?"

Any one of those can seriously benefit you if you know what your doing, but the same time, you have to think whats more important.

It's also when to play WoG, and how are you going tap him out so you get a chance to do something.

[lolosoon]

First, sorry for necroing this "quite 2 years" dead thread.

I've played and enjoyed Stax for a while now (straight Armaggeddon Stax with 2 angels MD) but, even if the build is solid, I wanted things to be a bit spiced up 'cause I'm getting slowly bored with it.

Don't misunderstand me, the deck is great, but a bit too narrow-minded. Play Chalice//Trinisphere to slow things while controlling opp's threats with Prisons, Magus and Geddons, bla bla bla...

Well, you all know the deck...

I was wondering if a splash, along with a toolbox could revive the ol' flame for the deck, without lowering too much its consistency vs Threshold, Goblin and Storm-based Decks.

8 anti-aggro cards (Magi and Prisons) vs Combo, and 8 anti-combo cards (Chalices and 3Spheres) are 8 dead cards vs the wrong archetype. The tool box could not help you find the right answer faster, but at least, dead cards wouldn't fill your hand uselessly.

The En.Tutor helps having a turn 1 play without relying on Moxes and/or 2mana lands (even if Mox, Tomb, Tutoring for Chalice@1 is enjoyable).

Sure the Manabase will be weakened a bit, but it's already quite weak and the Crucibles are a good help.

For now, that's what I pack in :

// Mana 29
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Flagstone of Trokair
4 Scrubland
2 Godless Shrine
4 Mishra Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Plains

// Creatures 3
3 Exalted Angel

// Spells 18
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Smokestack
4 Armageddon
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Vindicate

// Toolbox : 10

So, it leaves ou with 10 slots which have to contain the bombs vs current Metagame.

The options are the following :
Moat
Ghostly Prison
Chalice of the Void
Engineered Plague
Humility (Leaving Mishra as your lone win con)
Night of Souls' Betrayal
Engineered Explosives
Trinisphere
Oblivion's Ring
Pithing Needle
Powder Keg
Suppression Field
The Abyss
Winter Orb
Planar Void
Null Rod
Tormod's Crypt
Aura of Silence
Seal of Cleansing
Seal of Doom
Artifact Lands
...


So, what would be your MD/SB choice among those cards ? What could be added ?!

Moreover, are Braids or Tombstalker card to be included in a Stax Build ? Braids add the Stax effect count, Tombstalker is a game-ender than can be easily played after a successful Geddon...


Thanks in advance for your hints and tips.

Regards,
Soon.