That's a good question since it shuts off the Combo - just as Leyline - and keeps Tarmogoyf small.Originally Posted by galeng
No one plays Planar Void, but it should be a really good cads against Breakfast (IF your sideboardslots are worth to waste the space just to improve 1 matchup. Ok, and Ichorid maybe.).
By the way, why are you all playing the build with Lim-Dul's Vault? The card is worse than a tutor and running more protections spells instead of Cantrips/Librarymanipulation makes the deck worse, because the original build has a large number of cantrips and tutors so it hardly ran out of gas even if the combo got disrupted by spotremoval.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
I forgot about leyline of the void. I'm pretty sure this is better hate since it dodges force and daze. In the primer I don't see any answers in the main deck and a sample sideboard isn't mentioned. Do you guys generally sideboard some chain of vapors or something to fight it?
Maybe it's a raw list, but we usually run at least 1 bounce like Stern proctor (tutorable) or Echoing Truth (tutorable with Lim-Dul's Vault). And additional bounce in the SB.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
What is latest decklist for breakfast? do you guys run Lim-Dul's Vault or ponder?
I still run Ponder and E.Call because of the "reasons" I mentioned above. I still think that Barnello's build looks very good on paper, but the playstyle is different because you have less tutors/worse tutors (Lim-Dul's Vault acts like Worldly Tutor/Vampiric/Mystical Tutor, just more expansive and...well...disadvantage).
And in my opinion, there's no need so fr to run maindeck hate when you can just straight foward tutor the comboengine together - even several times if it get's disrupted - and win or just grab as much Goyf as your deck has to offer and beatdown. Sounds very stupid and simple, but we really don't need hate here.
That's why I usually don't discuss here, because I think that deck is such a autopilot-nobrainer thingy... But this time I was curious why everyone discusses Nightmare's build. I think Nightmare just built it more control-oriented.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
What do you guys think about Daze in favour of Ponder as a another protection piece, which has been done in the Worlds?
The most important thing about daze is probably that it is blue. If you don't want to tun Ponder or Vault this is another blue option that comes to mind. Because I never really thought that this deck needs 4 additional can-trips and I wasn't keen of using Vault as an alternative.
The blue cards you play are:
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Narcomoeba
(3-4 Ponder/Daze/Vault)
You don't really want to remove a Illusionist, only if you have two, or if you are totally concentrating on the tarmogoyf plan. That means that you should try to keep these slots in the blue colour and I think daze is a really strong blue card that can fitt in this slot. Any other statements?
I don't like it, since the alternative cost of Daze since it slows us down. We rather want cardquality to guarantee a consequent goldfish and/or straight gameplan (similar to NQG).
I still play this (very standard) list:
// Lands
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [R] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Underground Sea
// Creatures
1 [JU] Sutured Ghoul
3 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [TO] Cephalid Illusionist
1 [SH] Shaman en-Kor
4 [SH] Nomads en-Kor
1 [US] Stern Proctor
// Spells
2 [PS] Eladamri's Call
4 [6E] Worldly Tutor
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TSP] Dread Return
1 [SC] Dragon Breath
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [LRW] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 4 [WL] Abeyance
SB: 4 [7E] Duress
SB: 1 [TO] Crippling Fatigue
SB: 1 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
Quite nice since it has got tutorpower en masse and...yeah, Cardquality. Remember that additional cantrips help you to recover better from pesky landdestruction.
Run Ponder as additional blue cards and everything's fine imo.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
I have been playing Cephalid Breakfast for a while now, but never felt that there was any need for the one maindeck Stern Proctor.
There are only a few cards that can really shut you down in the first game. Jitte, Humility, Deed, Counterbalance and Explosives come to mind. He won't help against Humility and if your opponent has 4 lands out he isn't all that great against jitte, because you have to bounce the jitte before you go off and you can't give your opponent another combat phase, that means that you either need 5lands or a vial and the combo pieces of course.
He's not very good against Counterbalace, because you will ony get him through with a vial, and with vial in play you don't have to fear the Counterbalance, only if they have a 4cc spell on top or a 1cc spell that will stop you from playing Cabal therapy. Harmonic Sliver is way better against Counterbalance and Jitte. There are a lot of Thresh decks that play Counterbalance, that's why I always put 2 Harmonic Slivers in my SB.
Yinxed Jailer seems nice against Ichorid, but he will stop you from going off yourself. Well, he completely wrecks Ichorids gameplan, but every good Ichorid player will play very aggressive against Cephalid Breakfast so that he will try to create as much preassure as he can in the first turns, and maybe before the jailer comes online and they can still hardcast their guys. Your only change is to win with goyfs. I have no experience at all with Yinxed Jailer, how did he do against Ichorid Adan? Where there times where you lost, even though you had him in play?
In my opinion Lim-Dûl's Vault is much better than the Ponder and E.Call plan. Can't say how many games the Vault has won or turned to my favor.
At the moment I play this list:
//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
// Creatures
1 Satured Ghoul
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nomads en-Kor
1 Shaman en-Kor
4 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Narcomoaba
/Spells
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
4 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
4 Æther Vial
3 Lim-Dûl's Vault
3 Worldly Tutor
1 Dragon Breath
2 Abeyance
//Sideboard
1 Crippling Fatigue
4 Krosan Grip
2 Abeyance
1 Echoing Thruth
3 Karma
4 Duress
The one Echoing Truth maindeck is only for the Vault so that you can handle many cards before boarding like Gaddock Teeg, Ghostly Prison and so on.
Karma is because of the meta. Black is my (your) nightmare (for example Extirpate, Plague just to name a few)
any thoughts on that(my list)=?
Tutor your own Tarmogoyf together and beat him up? Well, if you are not playing against spiritofthewretch who has got mulligan down to 5 cards for the 1st turn kill, it's quite fine. You can tutor him up 1st turn and get him online turn 2. That's enough to stop Ichorid. Meanwhile you wil have time to draw/tutor your Goyfs together and then beat him (you can abuse the Cephalid-en-Kor Vombo to make Goyf fat at least).
Stern proctor's fine with Counterbalance and can be tutored with every tutor I have in my deck, that's enough of an argument for not scooping at random against people who run the Enchantments you named.
But now that you mentioned it, then there should also not be any reason to increase the numbers of Therapies. Or run inferior tutors that don't win in exactly the same turn they are played. or Abeyances. I mean, what are you afraid of preboard which Stern proctor can't handle??? E.Call allows nice combat tricks with Aether Vials and doesn't produce carddisadvantage.
@Fishbone: That's Nightmare's list. My opinion is stated 4 posts before. Lim-Dul's Vault is too clumpy. The deck already runs too much combopieces, why should you then stuff it with more useless cards in form of overkill-protection?
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
@Adan:
Why do u think my list is a nightmare?
Lim-Dûl's Vault is too clumpy? E.Call is clumpy as well. It takes the nearly the same time and you are not able to find more than one combopiece/ hate.
The Option of finding the whole combo turns the games in 2 turns.
Your list plays also cards you don't need like Ponder or the Confidants in Sideboard. I tested then and they were absulutely useless.
Lol, I said it's Nightmare's list (meaning Adam Barnello, site admin here, regged as "Nightmare").
No, Eladamri's call is less clumpy than Vault because it can win in the same turn and gives you the cards right into your hand without any lifeloss or carddisadvantage. Ponders are very good to support also the Tarmogoyf beatdown-plan you sometimes have to go when facing strange hate or decks that disrupt the combo itself too much.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
What's the sideboard plan against Landstill for example:
If you are palying against a 4C list, and he will probably bring in both Plagues and Meddling Mages you can basically side in 14 cards!
And against thresh with black (maybe with Plagues or Leyline) you could side in 10-13 cards, this depends on weather you want to board in Dark Confidants, which I would definetely do, if they run Ghastly Demise as their removal.
That feels a little bit like an overkill.
So, how are you boarding?
What about boarding Confidants against White Thresh?
If you play black you will play part black not mono black so I think
- 3 Karma
+ 3 Pernicious Deed
"Just hulk your way there."
" It's your fault I lost, because YOU didn't have force of will"
4 Legged freaks, back in action!!!
Your one and only freak, SpiderFreak!
TEAM: Left Field. Wining with cards that make you go " What the f**k!!!"
Every list I've seen in this post plays the goyf-ghoul version.
Anyone advocates in favor of the karmic Guide/ Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker/ Sky Hussar version?
I'm testing this list:
Lands (17)
2x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
4x Tundra
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
Creatures (15)
1x Karmic Guide
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Sky Hussar
1x Stern Proctor
3x Narcomoeba
4x Cephalid Illusionist
4x Nomads En-Kor
Other Spells (28)
1x Dread Return
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Eladamri's Call
4x Worldly Tutor
3x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Aether Vial
Without Goyf it's easier to fit 4x Daze MD.
Without Goyf, it's also easier to lose when the opponent has any hate.
Keep moon-walking.
Goyf not only provides a tough defense, but an alternate win for when you simply can't combo out. The deck uses lands, creatures, instants, sorceries, artifacts, and an enchantment. Goyf can be a fetchable 6/7 beatstick. If you opponent brings on gravehate/Meddling Mage, tutor up Goyf after Goyf. The worst scenario is when they'll StP/kill him.
@Filip - Your version rolls over to Needle. You only have Nomads, no Shaman. And Kiki also suffers from Needle hate. Your board should be equipped to handle multiple Needles just in case. Maybe Harmonic Sliver and a few Grip. Stern Proctor is cool and all for dealing with one, but Harmonic deals with the artifact for good, not just one turn which helps when there are multiples.
Hate to sound cynical, but if moving to the Kiki kill freed up 4 slots I might be inclined to put Goyf back in those slots anyway.
info.ninja
Before anyone says I brought the discussion up because I don't have goys, that's not true. I think over all, having an alternative game plan is better, but I can see a lot of benefits from running 4x Daze.
Yuuta Takahashi did pretty well at worlds running a list with the kiki-hussar kill, and he didn't had Dazes. PV also did well and he had goyfs and dazes.
You don't need much mana to go off, specially if you get a vial into play, so casting daze isn't a problem really.
They'll have to dodge 4x FoW + 4x Daze to get the hate into play, not very hard, but If they get a needle or whatever in play, you can tutor for Stern Proctor to set up for your win.
I don't think it's as simple as you put.
So what do you do when they are KNOWN to have Extirpate, Filip? Goyf is an alternate plan not really relying on key cards in the graveyard.
Or what do you do if they have a Mogg Fanatic on the table? You need both Cephalid and the en-Kor. Both have 1 toughness. Playing or Vialing in one is cool and all, but getting the second in, they can respond by nailing one piece with Fanatic. At least run Shaman en-Kor to get rid of one situation on the Fanatic.
One solution to gravehate is Orim's Chant, which is on color. It deals with Extirpate, counters, and removal spells. But what about activated abilities? Oh yeah, we can use Abeyance. It costs one more, but that stops Mogg Fanatic from ruining your day. It also stops Pernicious Deeds if they have that with mana open. And most importantly it stops Tormod's Crypt, one of the most common forms of gravehate. It's popularity will stay high with Dredge and Thresh and Loam decks running around.
I know you said you don't own Goyf, so no pressure to get any yet, but think about what I said, because it IS hate that comes as early as turn 1.
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