Recurring Nightmare is a house for this deck. 1 copy is all you need to improve your late-game advantage over other decks. Against aggro decks, you can attack with a Hierarch and cast Recurring Nightmare twice; with a potential in gaining you a total of 8 life and an untapped Hierarch. I'm speaking late game here, not a usual play.
You know that nightmare where your running but you just can't get away...
why almost everybody try to run aggro versions of the deck? are you happy to get almost your creep cutted out when you activate Pernicious?
I'm working on a more control-based decklist, triyng to avoid the costant metagame presence of decks like Dragon Stompy and U-based that try to abuse of Back to Basic. I found that my version have an excellent MU from Dragon and faerie Stompy, an excellent mu against ******** and aggro control . I noticed that the deck lose the first match by his classic worst MU: dredge, burn and the fast comboish decks, such as Belcher and TES, and build a sideboard to handle on that matchups.
The 1st game against Goblin, Landstills and Loam-based decks are decent and depends a lot on cointoss and hand quality; these are mu that is impossible to estabilish on how much they are worst preside, cause sometimes happens that you'll get a fast victory, sometimes you are simply overwhelmed. They are the famous "50\50" matchups.
When i builded this decklist, i have focused my attention on the way to give the deck manipulation and a costant card advantage system, and i was sure that running Confidant and Sensei's i wouldn' have any 1 copy of tech cards, focusing my build on a solid maindeck redundance; the only 1X card is Hierarch, that could be saw as the 3rd ravenous Baloth. A second point where i would focus my attention, is how to handle a Goyf metagame and at the same time run a powerful finisher that avoids completely Counterbalance; thinking on that way, i put my attention on Spiritmonger: 'Monger is simply awsome, it chumpblocks every Tarmogoyf and avoid Mystic Enforcer problack ability. He also cut be sacrificed on Ravenous Baloth, and he is perfect on this deck cause running Confidants you know that our enemy StP won't be putted ever on him: they have to handle Confidant first.
I took my decklist on a 38 eight people tournament placing 6th, losing on top8s by WWgu weenye but i was simply unluck (i've never saw a Pernicious Deed in any of the 3 games). After that tournament i start run 3 Hideous Laughter on sb against goblin; they are simply amazing, doing an Infest work at istant speed, and they are strong as a Tivadars Crusade comparing effects. Play an Hideous Laughter after that our opponents cast they goblins before attack mean did at least a 3\4x1 and took an amazing advantage on our opponent; and remember that casting a Sakura on turn 2 means that you'll be able to play Laughter from turn 3.
Here's the decklist:
// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [A] Bayou
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [A] Savannah
5 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
4 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
2 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
2 [10E] Treetop Village
// Creatures
4 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [AP] Spiritmonger
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [ON] Ravenous Baloth
1 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
// Spells
4 [AP] Vindicate
2 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [RAV] Putrefy
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
SB: 3 [OD] Aegis of Honor
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [OD] Haunting Echoes
SB: 3 [CHK] Hideous Laughter
This is what I have been playing lately and it seems very close to what has been talked about in this thread so I'll list it here. My choices are different here and there, but the premise seems the same.
3 Mumuring Bosk
4 Bayou
2 Savannah
4 Scrubland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Dark Ritual
4 Vindicate
4 Swords
3 Loxodon Heirarch
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn
4 Tombstalker
2 Eternal Dragon
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Living Wish
4 Pernicious Deed
SB:
3 Engineered Plague
1 Exalted Angel
1 Shreikmaw
1 Viridian Zealot
3 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Dueling Grounds
My main differences are
Mumuring Bosk - I just like being able to not get color screwed. It's been invaluable since I play quite a few multi-colored cards. I use 3 because of the CIPT thing. I usually take a chance to fetch them at the end of opponents turn so that drawback is negated.
Tombstalker - He's been golden Usually a third turn play unless i feel like feeding the goyfs if they already hit the table. The guy is flat scary how fast he comes out. Definitely a 4 of.
Thoughtseize - I just enjoy taking Lackies or goyfs from thresh so I included it over Duress. The Loxodon's outweigh the life loss anyway. I have swords, but I do like the extra kill if it needs to be.
More Loxodons - I personally enjoyed the extra life + body since my meta is filled with burn. We have a lot of newer players who can't afford duals yet so we end up with a lot of straight up burn. The life gain now is a meta call on my part. I agree with the Baloth otherwise.
Hymns - This one is mainly because of my lack of sac targets for Therapy and not having a problem with double black turn 2.
Eternal Dragon - Mana Fix and a late game beater if needed. Typically he ends up being a subtle draw in the form of returning/cycling sometimes if the game is not already over.
Goyf - well, it's goyf. He's fast and beats are what we are about.
Odd board choices
Exalted Angel - Has been a saving grace occationally. She's amazingly quick and efficient. Wish target and comes in main for when I want some extra speed.
Dueling grounds - It's really quite amazing against goblins. We have a few players of gobbos so I needed something to stop the rush and this fills that role stupidly well. They don't seem to want to dive into a Loxodon with one guy anymore and tend not to block much either. Granted they have board hate for it, but it's usually a surprise and they weren't planning on boarding for it. Plus, it's a little quicker than most anti-goblins type cards.
Engineered plague - Good for goblins and my main reason for using it in addition to Dueling grounds is Meathooks. We have a good Meathooks player and Crystaline making my swords stink was the main reason. It's a close game 1 and no contest game 2.
Typically, I end up playing the same decks every week. So I really can only comment on those. Our local Thresh player (the only really good one) is in the hospital so I can't comment on that deck other than playing against people I doubt are making optimal plays. It's a beating against them so I can't picture them playing thresh right. It should be more of a challenge than that. I know people have mentioned it's not a challenge, but man, I just can't picture that horridly disruptive deck not doing more.
Other matchups I have played to death.
Meathooks is a cakewalk especially after boarding.
Goblins are a cakewalk
Burn is laughable.
Survival decks cry and then cry some more after the board.
Thresh U/G/W so far is easy, but see above comment.
Dredge/Ichorid is plain tricky game 1 and no contest game 2. Having to play a CoV to get rid of leyline gives me the turn I need it seems. Loxodon keeps Bridges in check.
TES - tricky, but it comes down to who got the better draw. I don't get to play against this one much so I can't comment. I assume combo is the worst match. I don't even want to see a belcher deck pop up.
Landstill isn't too bad. Stronghold shines all of a sudden and makes me want to add more.
Any type of Stax is auto toast. Trinisphere and chalice just don't seem to do much of anything so I get to walk on through to the other side.
Thank God there's no Dragon stompy player around here. I really do need to fix the problem of blood moon. So far everytime I ran into a Blood moon (and it's been a few times) I ended up taking it out with a discard spell or having a huge threat like goyf or Tombstalker already out and pushing my way through anyway. Tombstalker has been the saving grace everytime so one resolved one against me.
Overall, if you don't have much combo, this seems to be the deck to play as I won everytime I pulled it out.
With all that non-basic hate around, I'm not really excited about running a 3-colored manabase without a decent amount of cantrips.
Due to that, I'll give this thing a try:
6 [RAV] Forest (1)
3 [UNH] Swamp
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [A] Bayou
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
// Creatures
4 [9E] Llanowar Elves
4 [8E] Birds of Paradise
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [10E] Troll Ascetic
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [RAV] Putrefy
The manabase probably still needs tweaking (I'm also trying to squeeze in a Volrath's Stronghold for recursion sillyness).
I'm quite pleased with the discard package. 8 mana dudes + Therapy + Thoughtseize + Witness is just such a beating. I also like it how Shriekmaw is hardcastable with relative ease due the number of accelerants.
I just don't know what to put into the Sb. Deed? Krosan Grip? Extirpate/LotV? What else?
No Swords :/
I was doing some testing on MWS and thought I should try this deck. I never thought it was as strong as I thought, but I managed a really strong record of 1-1 vs Ichorid before he had to leave, 2-0 against UR Landstill, and 2-0 against a deck I forgot before my computer froze and left midgame against another opponent. Here was the list.
// Lands
4 [B] Bayou
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [R] Savannah
2 [U] Scrubland
1 [CHK] Plains (4)
3 [RAV] Forest (3)
2 [MM] Swamp (2)
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [4E] Birds of Paradise
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
3 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
// Spells
4 [PLC] Harmonize
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [US] Duress
Harmonize is insane. Against Landstill, I was able to play Harmonize 4 times and keep his hand small and a Tombstalker or Goyf was able to finish it. Against Ichorid I just went all out aggro and beat him game 2 with a 6/7 Goyf, Doran and a Bird. Game 1 he had won turn 2 :/. The list was really consistent and I never really got in a bad position.
Last edited by Jak; 03-15-2008 at 02:01 AM.
Hi! With the following built I went 2nd (5-1) of 37 players on sunday at a local tournament here in germany(Haßloch).
2 Doran, the Siege Tower
3 Eternal Witness
2 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Ohran Viper
1 Shriekmaw
1 Spiritmonger
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Forest
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
There are 2 different choices from a normal built:
veteran explorer > birds
Ohran Viper added
Both cards were amazing!
Round 1 - vs bye 1-0
Round 2 - vs Angel Stax (silverdragon) won 2-1 2-0
Round 3 - vs burn Combo won 2-0 3-0
Round 4 - vs 2 Land Belcher won 2-1
Round 5 - vs AggroLoam 0-2 lost 4-1
Round 6 - vs ******** UGR 2-1 won 5-1
The explorer is sooooo amazing. First Turn explorer. Second Turn Therapy + Landdrop -> 3 Mana for Doran, Goyf, more Discard....
The Viper is anotehr solide choice. Normally the Op will kill her very fast. So Tarmo and Doran will have not that much problems. Try this card you will love it!
This is Tombstone not the Rock put it in the right thread.Originally Posted by Jak.
Major Deck Projects
Deck 2012: Angel Walk
Deck 2009: Tombstone
Deck 2007: Exploration Crucible:
Deck 2005:Bob the Belcher:
Uhh no. It is the Rock. I did get the idea to try out Harmonize from Tombstine, but just because I run that one card does not make this your deck.
The most recent Tombstone list I have seen from your thread.
Black
4x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Snuff Out
3x Tombstalker
Green
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Eternal Witness
3x Harmonize
White
4x Swords to Plowshares
Blue
4x Brainstorm
Gold
3x Doran
2x Crime/Punishment
Land
5x Basics
7x Fetch Lands
9x Dual Lands
You don't run Deed which is a big part of what The Rock is. The lists have many differences. Tombstone is essentially The Rock, but I really don't care about names.
This man speaks the truth. Explorer + therapy = double therapy + hymn turn two, ect. Birds + therapy... is better than birds + deed i suppose. Explorer is possibly the best (and most often one-sided) mana accel available when running therapy and deed.
My list: DORA ROCKS
// Lands
2 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
3 [UNH] Forest
3 [UNH] Swamp
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Bayou
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
// Spells
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [JU] Living Wish
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [LRW] Profane Command
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Eternal Witness
SB: 1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [DIS] Indrik Stomphowler
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [FUT] Tombstalker
SB: 1 [MOR] Chameleon Colossus
My Doras:
I'm really liking this list. Harmonize is truly amazing, especially in conjunction with Witness, but also with discard. Several times I found myself with a full grip while they had nothing in hand... so good! I was also impressed by Tombstalker, as it comes down surprisingly early and doesn't interfere with Goyf/Witness as much as I would have thought.
Is there any reason for not running a singleton Stronghold?
Stronghold could/should be in the list. I would probably cut a Forest.
Also, I am digging Explorer. Turn 2- Play Therapy, sac Explorer to play again, get 2 lands, drop Goyf. It does have better synergy with Deed and Therapy, stops lackey, and I guess it would be the same versus combo as Bird. One beats and one is able to accel. I'll have to try it out.
Is explorer really that good? It seems bad against so many decks
Off hand it is bad against
Stax
Some Control
Some Combo (Aluren, Iggy Pop, Breakfast)
Burn
Survival
LFTL
It would be decent against
Most Aggro Control (land destruction especially)
Aggro
Imho, I think your helping the other player out too much. Only a few decks run all nonbasics.
The explorer is so amazing! Test him! And if you are relly playing against stax, ok board it! He will play chalice 1, so simply board the explorers, but against each other deck is is amazing.
And please test the Ohran Viper! Anyone else who tested it?
Have you ever sacrificed an Explorer to Smokestack? Believe me it's really really cool. ;) Moreover the Stax player normaly won't profit that much from the extra lands as you will (unless it is turn 2) since he can't play that differently if he has 6 instead of 4 mana.
It behaves quite similar vs. decks like Burn, lots of aggro and some aggro-control. Maybe they can fetch 2 basics but often they won't be able to make good use out of them or at least you will probably be able to abuse the acceleration more than your opponent.
No clue about Explorer, on paper it looks like it's not worth the risk (ex: Sensation Gorger in Goblins). I'd almost always rather birds.
I tried out the Harmonizes and I have to say that everytime I played one I was hoping it was Survival. Also, 4 Vindicate, 3 Deed, 4 Swords is definitely too much. Just saying.
Here's my list, I opted for the original b/g build. Has anyone tested with garruk, i'm unsure if i like him in this style of a deck. 9/10 when i drop him it just feels like i'm winning more. The 1/10 is against control decks like landstill where they have trouble dealing with him if he hits the board. Also i need suggestions for a solid sb for an open meta. Comments / Concerns welcome!
// Lands
3 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
5 [UNH] Swamp
5 [UNH] Forest
4 [R] Bayou
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
// Creatures
4 [B] Birds of Paradise
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [ON] Ravenous Baloth
4 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
// Spells
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FD] Night's Whisper
4 [PLC] Extirpate
Why Extirpate maindeck? Without running the white splash you don't have access to Vindicate, so i think that for you is better run at least 2 Crime\Punishment to improve your removal spells over the four Pernicious. Another point is if Wall of Blossoms is better than Sakura-tribe Elder in your decklist: Wall is a great chumpblocker and cycle itself, but Sakura speeds your 4th turn play onto turn 3, stabilize your manabase aginst stax and stompy decks and improve your delve cards in graveyard.
I like extirpate maindeck mainly for the control matchup. But it's such a good card that it is never useless.
I dont really need vindicate so much that i want to pose the risk of wasteland / btb / bloodmoon. As vindicate is a good card, but i dont really the spot removal as much as you think. At least so far i havn't said to myself, wow i wish i had a vindicate xxxxxxx is pissing me off.
I would like to run 1-2 crime / punishments but i'm unsure of what spot to cut, as i'm already running 61 cards.
As far as sakura goes, i like the wall better, turn 3 is great for whatever 4 drop, but i like the cantrip + blocker, it's proved invaluable vs goblins / threshold / random aggro. Plus later in the game when i have 8+ mana sources i like to volraths it into play to continuously chump block while still maintaining cards.
I really like this deck, but is Night's Whisper really better than Harmonize in a deck like this. I think the only thing I would change is the Birds seem a LOT better suited as Veteran Explorer and I would play 1-2 Grave-Shell Scarab or 1-2 Gigapede, and maybe 1-2 Eternal Witness.
I took yours and everyone else's advice on the explorers and cut the birds for them.
I like Night's Whisper over harmonize simply for the casting cost. It's more of a maintin momentum as opposed to committing 4 mana sources on turn 3-7 and just draw go. With Whisper I can just squeeze it in and pick up the cards, the life loss is negligable with baloths. Usually i'm sacraficing them to something anyways.
My changes so far are -
-4 Extirpate
-4 Birds
+4 Cabal Therapy
+4 Explorers
The explorer / therapy combo works amazingly often. I had a game last night where explorer alone did over 10 points of damage only because he either opted to take the damage or avoided killing it with ee. Kinda funny, i guess he didnt want me getting land.
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