[Discussion] What is the best current combo deck?

[BreathWeapon]

No one is arguing that FT doesn't have more/better access to Chant than TES does, adding 4 top deck tutors and 4 Sensei's Diving Tops with shuffling effects is going to have that result. The problem with the FT vs TES disruption argument is that FT MUST have more/better access to Chant, because it's slower and it gives the opponent more time to assemble his counter walls and lay his permanent road blocks

On the other side of the FT vs TES disruption argument, FT's Fetchland manabase and acceleration can't support Vexing Shusher as well as TES's 5c manabase and acceleration can. In FT, there's a push/pull effect on its SBing from either bringing in anti-counters and/or anti-permanents, where TES can bring in a single, uncounterable card that deals with both counters and permanents at the same time. TES also gets to bait counter unto acceleration or Burning Wish because of the threat of Empty the Warrens, or it can just Burning Wish for Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy.

As far as Vexing Shusher and Empty the Warrens being prone to removal is concerned, it's advantageous to TES, because it makes SBing more difficult for the opponent. He has to choose between keeping in 4 to 12 dead cards at all times, where for FT the SBing is much easier sans Tomb of Urami or Dark Confidant etc.

I'm not convinced Extirpate is worth it, most of the times I've drawn Extirpate I didn't have Orim's Chant, which leads me to believe I'd rather have drawn Abeyance and either be able to go off from there or double chant.

The speed argument is relevant, we aren't mispiloting the deck, FT is just one to two turns slower than other storm combo decks on average. You pay a price for your card selection, and you pay it in speed; it's the defining attribute of FT, and you can't simply dismiss it.

[Nightmare]

Before the release of Scourge, your definition would have been totally inapplicable. Combo was defined as that - a combination of cards, that when played, won the game. Buried Alive + Animate Dead, or Illusions + Donate. But clearly the new Tendrils decks were neither aggro nor control - they were combo, but they didn't win by any specific combination of cards, and in fact, that was what made them so good.

So did Storm rewrite the definition, or did it reveal that the definition that relied on the kill method was inadequate?

I started a thread on this a long time ago. You and I even debated in it. Here.

[BreathWeapon]

Before the release of Scourge, your definition would have been totally inapplicable. Combo was defined as that - a combination of cards, that when played, won the game. Buried Alive + Animate Dead, or Illusions + Donate. But clearly the new Tendrils decks were neither aggro nor control - they were combo, but they didn't win by any specific combination of cards, and in fact, that was what made them so good.

So did Storm rewrite the definition, or did it reveal that the definition that relied on the kill method was inadequate?

For me, I separate the terms of combo and Storm into two separate entities, combo is the process of combining two or more specific cards in no particular order to end the game, where Storm is the process of combining a number of cards from redundant categories (acceleration, tutors, cantrips, Draw 7s, Draw 4s etc.) in a specific order to reach a win condition and end the game. So for all intents and purposes, Storm is its own archetype, and Goblin Charbelcher is our adopted sister from China.

[Pulp_Fiction]

It really is all personal preference but the most problematic combo deck is Ichorid. And it is quite difficult to deal with Ichorid, 4x Leyline of the Void in the SB is not enough. Plus, what Ichorid does so effectively is beatdown, so not only is it savage combo with the ability to win on turn 1, but in the event you aren't getting the right cards you just attack with this stupid 3/1 creature and in turn he makes 2/2 zombies that lead to a fast clock and have the option of stripping out most all the viable cards in your opponents hand VIA Cabal Therapy. A single Extirpate doesn't kill it, 2-3 would on Bridge and Dread Return, but they could still do Ichorid beats in that event and might have a 2/2 flyer in play.

It also smashes Thresh in the face which is always a good thing and something a lot of combo decks can't reliably do. Now it isn't as consistent as something like Belcher but I think all of it's other benefits make up for that like most decks in the environment having a 20/80 matchup against it game 1!

Best all-around Combo deck in the format:
Ichorid

[emidln]

I've found with more Ponder in the maindeck, you don't really need the sideboard Infernal Contract. For two reasons: Ponders find the maindeck Infernal Contracts, and Ponders find the cards that the Contracts would be looking for. As for more Shattering Sprees, I could understand this, however, in the northeastern part of the United States Chalice decks aren't too popular. Not to mention Shusher can be board in versus those decks to counter Chalice's ability.

I'll concede the point that Fetchland Tendrils is better at finding Chant, I guess they have to be. The later the game goes on the more you have to find it. In the early game it's less important. This leads me to another point, aggro has a strong chance of beating fetchland Tendrils. The deck plays 4-5 cards that take away half of it's life, then fetchlands, complimented with Street Wraiths in some lists. A Goyf swing and a bolt will often end then game.

That's still only one out in the deck. Virtually you have 5 Death Wishes, only one of them answers all the hate throw at such a slow combo deck. Which brings me to Dilettante's post.

I personally get lost in here a few times, but his main point stands. Fetchland Tendrils hate is a lot deeper than hate for TES.

Fetchland Tendrils (only)
- Extirpate. <-Common
- Meddling Mage/Runed Halo <- These will start seeing play with FT only playing Tendrils.
- Tormod's Crypt <- This is huge since almost every deck plays graveyard hate.
- Pithing Needle on Fetchlands and Top hurts badly.<- Very common
- Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast <- Very common.

TES (Only)
- Enginneered Explosives (Empty the Warrens, EE rarely effects Fetch Tendrils)
- Blue Elemental Blast <- Sees very little play. It may with Shusher.

TES and Fetchland Tendrils

- Trinisphere
- Chalice of the Void
- Counterbalance
- More less relevant hate.

Fetchland Tendrils loses to more common hate than TES.

FT isn't affected by Tormod's Crypt. The Doomsday piles to beat Crypt are pretty easy to find, and winning with Doomsday instead of IGG is trivial.

As for the other types of hate, permanent-based hate isn't all that reliable due to plentiful bounce. The best ways to attack the deck are through the manabase/cantrip base which is where Pyroblast/REB/Needle are effective. Extirpate works if you can manage to stop the chant effects, othewise it's relegated to a bad predict or more manabase hate. Extirpating Tendrils has never been effective since FT has always had either an alternate win condition or Burning Wish/Death Wish available.

With Doomsday in the deck, generating lethal storm for an alternate win condition like Brain Freeze isn't even all that difficult with minor setup because of the easy access to mana and tops.

Pyroblast/REB also seems to be pretty good against TES, especially with the new lists playing 8 blue cantrips. I don't see how this is so one sided since red blasts only hit 3-4 more
cards in FT than TES.

@ Breathweapon

If I'm winning on turn 3 and you're doing it on turn 4-5, then you are doing something really wrong.

[Bryant Cook]

FT isn't affected by Tormod's Crypt. The Doomsday piles to beat Crypt are pretty easy to find, and winning with Doomsday instead of IGG is trivial.

Doomsday stacks need more mana and cards than Ill-Gotten Gains. How is that trival? If I was playing a non-combo deck I would side in Tormod's against you. Not to mention you need 3-4 cards before Doomsday to make a Tendrils lethal.

As for the other types of hate, permanent-based hate isn't all that reliable due to plentiful bounce. The best ways to attack the deck are through the manabase/cantrip base which is where Pyroblast/REB/Needle are effective. Extirpate works if you can manage to stop the chant effects, othewise it's relegated to a bad predict or more manabase hate. Extirpating Tendrils has never been effective since FT has always had either an alternate win condition or Burning Wish/Death Wish available.

Plentiful bounce? In current lists theres one Wipeaway maindeck. Then 1-2 postboard. I fail to agree with you here. Thoughtsieze/Cabal Therapy then extirpate seems incredibly solid. The two are often played in the same decks. Your current list has 1 Tendrils and no Death Wish, you lose to an extract. TES has always had ways around our win conditions being removed. Having the option there and having a card in the deck is different. Its a difference of tons of different cards in an arguement to a few.

With Doomsday in the deck, generating lethal storm for an alternate win condition like Brain Freeze isn't even all that difficult with minor setup because of the easy access to mana and tops.

Brainfreeze? How do you generate the storm and mana in order to do this? Storm 13-14 is possible, but it seems unlikely especially with Doomsday. I can see this is you use both Gains and Doomsday in the same turn, then you're once again vulnerable to Extripate and Crypt.

Pyroblast/REB also seems to be pretty good against TES, especially with the new lists playing 8 blue cantrips. I don't see how this is so one sided since red blasts only hit 3-4 more
cards in FT than TES.

You're base color is blue, TES doesn't have a base color at all. When people look at TES they don't think a blue deck. They think combo with cantrips. You're a lot deeper in blue and most of your answers such as Rebuild and Wipeaway are blue. I could see Dragon Stompy pyroblasting a rebuild.

@ Breathweapon

If I'm winning on turn 3 and you're doing it on turn 4-5, then you are doing something really wrong.

This isn't the only person claiming to have problems winning fast. Cutting Lotus petal cut back on your average win. You can't always draw Dark Ritual and Doomsday on turn 2 to set up a win on turn 3. I think it's fair to say Fetch Tendrils is soo slow it wins on turns 4-5.

[BreathWeapon]

I'm winning on turn 3 but not all of the versions I've tested are winning on turn 3. The problem I have with FT at the moment is that it's too difficult to define what FT is, some versions are faster than others, and some versions are more susceptible to Meddling Mage and Tormod's Crypt than others.

For instance, a Meddling Mage on Tendrils of Agony or Infernal Tutor "usually" forces FT to address it by either bouncing it or spending additional mana/life to reach an alternate win condition or storm engine thru' Death Wish, where Meddling Mage doesn't force TES to address it at all. Tormod's Crypt stops Ill Gotten Gains, where TES could ignore Tormod's Crypt by tutoring for Diminishing Returns (at an equal cc storm engine) or Empty the Warrens (at a greater storm count), FT would have to tutor for a Doomsday and need more mana and/or Sensei's Divining Top to go off.

It seems to me that FT is affected by the most common forms of permanent based hate more than TES is. That's not to say it's true for all permanent based hate, since you clearly have a definite advantage against Trinisphere and other Sphere effects on account of your manabase, or that the permanent based hate is in any way debilitating to FT, but for all of your additional tutor/cantrips and bounce, you have to spend more of your time and resources on dealing with permanent based hate because of your lack of redundant tutors/win conditions and decrease of goldfishing speed.

There's a fine balancing act between slowing down and adding tutors/cantrips for answers and then in return being more reliant on finding those cards due to slowing down and diluting the deck in the first place. TES doesn't have this problem because it's min/maxed for speed and because Vexing Shusher is both an answer to counters and permanent based hate. It's not necessarily a strike against FT, since that's FT's play style, but you guys really have to work a lot harder on finding out what that right balance of tutors/cantrips and answers vs loss of speed and dilution is.

So sure, you can say that permanent based hate doesn't really affect FT because it has all of the tutoring/cantripping and answers in the world to deal with it, and that's true to a certain extent, but you do have to pay for that nigh invulnerability thru' investing more time and resources in dealing with permanent based hate.

Edit: I swear to god, each time I've posted in this thread I started the post before Bryant posted, I am so not trying to reiterate exactly what he said, altho' I think it makes it abundantly clear that different people are simultaneously recognizing the same problems.

[emidln]

Doomsday stacks need more mana and cards than Ill-Gotten Gains. How is that trival? If I was playing a non-combo deck I would side in Tormod's against you. Not to mention you need 3-4 cards before Doomsday to make a Tendrils lethal.

The minimum requirements for Doomsday are exactly one SDT and B more mana than the requirements for IGG. For that single black mana, you receive an additional four damage. Doomsday outside of the Infernal Tutor loop is as efficient as the Infernal Tutor loop (it requires BBBBBB, Doomsday, and Top/Brainstorm/Ponder) and is only harder to assemble because Doomsday is a 1-of compared the 4-of Infernal Tutor.

Plentiful bounce? In current lists theres one Wipeaway maindeck. Then 1-2 postboard. I fail to agree with you here.

There is Wipe Away main with tutors for it. There are never fewer than 3 bounce spells in the board, and when there are only 3, there are Krosan Grips, Sudden Deaths, and other things to supplement them as necessary.

Thoughtsieze/Cabal Therapy then extirpate seems incredibly solid. The two are often played in the same decks. Your current list has 1 Tendrils and no Death Wish, you lose to an extract.

Really? The list that I posted (ignore Breathweapon's list, he is not me) has 2 Tendrils in it main and a Death Wish in the sideboard. (The list that I'm current playing eschews Death Wish for Brain Freeze.) My lists have had two Tendrils for a very long time, with only very short periods of a singleton Tendrils (it's always short because I find double Tendrils so useful and usually miss the second copy).

TES has always had ways around our win conditions being removed. Having the option there and having a card in the deck is different. Its a difference of tons of different cards in an arguement to a few.

I don't really see what the issue here is. If your Tendrils are removed from the game and you're winning with Tendrils, you use Infernal Tutor to loop into Burning Wish to find Tendrils if you're not using Burning Wish to begin with. FT does the same thing depending on whether it plays Burning Wish or Death Wish. It will combo off as normal and Infernal Tutor -> Wish -> Tendrils. This isn't really all that big of a deal, fairly easy even as far as plays go.

Brainfreeze? How do you generate the storm and mana in order to do this? Storm 13-14 is possible, but it seems unlikely especially with Doomsday. I can see this is you use both Gains and Doomsday in the same turn, then you're once again vulnerable to Extripate and Crypt.

I actually already said that I used top. It's pretty basic to generate mana into a doomsday, add a sensei's top into your stack, then loop two tops trading 1 mana for 1 storm until you have a lethal Brain Freeze or Tendrils. (I use this method for both win conditions in the face of certain hate.) It takes slightly more setup (usually finding another ritual effect instead of the minimum two, but it is certainly possible and I pull it off quite a bit. (This is yet another advantage to having 4 tops in the deck for those keeping score at home.)

You're base color is blue, TES doesn't have a base color at all. When people look at TES they don't think a blue deck. They think combo with cantrips. You're a lot deeper in blue and most of your answers such as Rebuild and Wipeaway are blue. I could see Dragon Stompy pyroblasting a rebuild.

Nobody plays Rebuild anymore. We haven't for a long time. They might pryoblast a rushing river or an echoing truth. Interestingly, this is partially why Serenity was cultivated as a solution to Chalice decks. It's very effective in those matchups. Also, boarding Pyroblast against Wipe Away would be really dumb, and I can't imagine any player making that mistake, especially if Wipe Away has been used on them in the first game. This still doesn't change the fact that red blasts are effective against cantrips in TES the same way that they are against FT.

This isn't the only person claiming to have problems winning fast. Cutting Lotus petal cut back on your average win. You can't always draw Dark Ritual and Doomsday on turn 2 to set up a win on turn 3. I think it's fair to say Fetch Tendrils is soo slow it wins on turns 4-5.

You don't want to go Dark Ritual, Doomsday and pass the turn. If that's what you're trying I have no doubt in my mind that you are playing the deck incorrectly. Turn 1-2 is for using Cantrips/Topdeck tutors to setup Doomsday, Ritual effects, Brainstorm/Ponder/Top if you have chosen the Doomsday route (it's often the easiest which is why it gets mentioned a lot). Dark Ritual, LED, Doomsday with a top on the table wins the game turn 3 without passing the turn. The without passing the turn is key because passing the turn against aggro will probably cause you to either suffer lethal damage or come under fire of discard or other hate since they know they need minimal disruption to make you unable to win with your 5 cards. Pass the turn kills with Doomsday usually require more mana anyway and, on average, generate less storm unless you have a very high life total and are willing to recur Doomsday with IGG. Even so, they usually require top, which leads to the question of why you're passing the turn at all.

Edit: I started to reply, left, then came back and finished. Apparently Breathweapon had posted something coherent in the meantime. Sorry for anyone reading the same thing twice.

[Bryant Cook]

I actually already said that I used top. It's pretty basic to generate mana into a doomsday, add a sensei's top into your stack, then loop two tops trading 1 mana for 1 storm until you have a lethal Brain Freeze or Tendrils. (I use this method for both win conditions in the face of certain hate.) It takes slightly more setup (usually finding another ritual effect instead of the minimum two, but it is certainly possible and I pull it off quite a bit. (This is yet another advantage to having 4 tops in the deck for those keeping score at home.)

More setup? On average what turn is this? 7-8? For a combo deck? By then Tarmogoyf has killed you and had sex with your girlfriend. Seriously though, this is too slow to be viable in Legacy combo.

You don't want to go Dark Ritual, Doomsday and pass the turn. If that's what you're trying I have no doubt in my mind that you are playing the deck incorrectly. Turn 1-2 is for using Cantrips/Topdeck tutors to setup Doomsday, Ritual effects, Brainstorm/Ponder/Top if you have chosen the Doomsday route (it's often the easiest which is why it gets mentioned a lot). Dark Ritual, LED, Doomsday with a top on the table wins the game turn 3 without passing the turn. The without passing the turn is key because passing the turn against aggro will probably cause you to either suffer lethal damage or come under fire of discard or other hate since they know they need minimal disruption to make you unable to win with your 5 cards. Pass the turn kills with Doomsday usually require more mana anyway and, on average, generate less storm unless you have a very high life total and are willing to recur Doomsday with IGG. Even so, they usually require top, which leads to the question of why you're passing the turn at all.

I was going by what people we're talking about doing in the Fetchland Tendrils thread. I still doubt that turn 3 Doomsday win is an average. I'd say 4.

Also, take a look into Breathweapon's last post. He has a lot of valid arguments in there.

[emidln]

More setup? On average what turn is this? 7-8? For a combo deck? By then Tarmogoyf has killed you and had sex with your girlfriend. Seriously though, this is too slow to be viable in Legacy combo

More setup is 1-3 mana usually, although if you're only using Cabal Rit/LED, potentially no more setup at all. Goyf attacking for 3 a turn does not a turn 7 kill make in any event. They need you to be under 4 life when you go for Doomsday, and even if Goyf hits turn 2, he needs a friend of some sort to have the potential to take us out of that range by turn 7. Turn 7 is really slow though, much slower than I tend to go off.

//Top Pile
Cruel Bargain
Dark Rit
LED
Top
Brain Freeze

this requires BBBB floating post Doomsday and top on the table. With 5 lands, the turn might play out something like this:

Chant, counter, Chant, counter, Ritual, Ritual, LED, infernal tutor, doomsday, cruel bargain, dark ritual, top, top, led, top, top, top, brain freeze

Holding chant, chant, rit, rit, led, tutor isn't really difficult on turn 5-6. In any event, due to our opponent adding storm, and the extra top letting you trade each spare mana for another storm, hitting lethal freeze amounts isn't difficult at all.

[Bryant Cook]

More setup is 1-3 mana usually, although if you're only using Cabal Rit/LED, potentially no more setup at all. Goyf attacking for 3 a turn does not a turn 7 kill make in any event. They need you to be under 4 life when you go for Doomsday, and even if Goyf hits turn 2, he needs a friend of some sort to have the potential to take us out of that range by turn 7. Turn 7 is really slow though, much slower than I tend to go off.

//Top Pile
Cruel Bargain
Dark Rit
LED
Top
Brain Freeze

this requires BBBB floating post Doomsday and top on the table. With 5 lands, the turn might play out something like this:

Chant, counter, Chant, counter, Ritual, Ritual, LED, infernal tutor, doomsday, cruel bargain, dark ritual, top, top, led, top, top, top, brain freeze

Holding chant, chant, rit, rit, led, tutor isn't really difficult on turn 5-6. In any event, due to our opponent adding storm, and the extra top letting you trade each spare mana for another storm, hitting lethal freeze amounts isn't difficult at all.

Don't you think that turn 5-6 is a little slow?

[BreathWeapon]

I'm assuming the REB would target the blue tutor searching for Wipe Away as opposed to the Wipe Away itself. No one is arguing that REB doesn't counter TES's cantrips, altho' I'd argue that countering TES's cantrips is retarded in the first place ..., but that REB has more targets in FT to counter, and that countering those targets in FT is more devastating to FT than it is in TES comparitively. For example, if Goblins REBs Brainstorm in TES, it's a minor concern, but if Goblins REBs Lim Dul's Vault in FT it's a major problem.

[emidln]

Don't you think that turn 5-6 is a little slow?

Considering that can win through multiple mages (the game where I got the pile from had Mage on Tendrils and Mage on ETW or Massacre (I don't remember which) and double hard counter? No. In fact, if you can craft a hand consistently that wins before turn 5-6 through multiple hard counters and mages on the table, I'd be really interested.

[Bryant Cook]

Considering that can win through multiple mages (the game where I got the pile from had Mage on Tendrils and Mage on ETW or Massacre (I don't remember which) and double hard counter? No. In fact, if you can craft a hand consistently that wins before turn 5-6 through multiple hard counters and mages on the table, I'd be really interested.

TES wouldn't be in that position since it can win before turn 6. Which was the original argument. Thank you.

[emidln]

TES wouldn't be in that position since it can win before turn 6. Which was the original argument. Thank you.

It's going to win through double hard counter and then mage on turn 2, mage on turn 3? That'd be pretty impressive.

[Bryant Cook]

It's going to win through double hard counter and then mage on turn 2, mage on turn 3? That'd be pretty impressive.

If we're talking of unlikely situations, sure.

In play: City, Mine.
In hand: Orim's Chant, Pyroblast, SSG, Infernal Tutor, Dark Ritual, LED, Rite of Flame.
SSg, Rite of Flame, Chant (Force), Pyroblast (Force), Dark Ritual, LED, Tutor. Diminishing Returns floating a black.
Draw: Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Contract, Simian Spirit Guide, Lotus Petal, Burning Wish, Rite of Flame.
Dark Ritual, Contract
Draw: Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, Lions eye Diamond, Ill-Gotten Gains.
Remove: SSg, 2x Rite of Flames, Burning Wish, Pyroclsm.
Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Led, Tutor, Tendrils.

It's possible, this is only one way. But if we're talking of unlikely things happening and reality it's different. In reality it's possible but unlikely. That was turn 2.

EDIT: My question is how did we go from Goyf attacking you to double Force of Will and double Meddling Mage? I was just stating a turn two tarmogoyf for you is scary since your deck is slow. A goyf attacking for 4-5 on turn 3 will kill you quickly.

[Nightmare]

This is why I locked it before. Stop being stupid, both of you.

[emidln]

If we're talking of unlikely situations, sure.

Unlikely situations? Double counter turn 1 isn't unlikely. Having double counter + mage isn't all that unlikely even. The thing is, FT has very easy outs there specifically because of the cards like Doomsday and Top that have received so much hate. Combo doesn't actually need to win until until 4-6 against aggro-control because they can't kill you any faster than that. Winning games is far more important to me than how fast I win, but being able to play deliberately against blue doesn't mean that you have to always win on turn 4 or beyond when you're not facing countermagic. My point through all this is that FT has achieved that through the inclusion of Doomsday and Top.

[BreathWeapon]

The problem tho' is that it's assuming that aggro-control is using a traditional clock, with Counterbalance, Meddling Mage, Gaddok Teeg etc. modern aggro-control or aggro-control-combo feels more like Stax with counters than it does creatures with tempo. Your speed isn't there to race the opponent in a life vs life scenario but to avoid being locked out of the game thru' shear counter + lock piece density.

You're arguing that FT is better than TES when the opponent draws the nuts, while we're arguing that TES is better than FT because it doesn't let the opponent tutor/cantrip/top deck into the nuts. I can understand the desire to be able to deal with the opponent over time, because it better leverages your skill indifferences, but sometimes just being faster/more aggressive than your opponent flat out wins the game for you regardless.

[Jaiminho]

Just wanted to LOL a bit here.

Anyway, Bryant, learn how FT works and plays before bashing the deck. Seriously. Seems like you can't accept that FT can do some things better than TES can.