[Deck] Pox

[mujadaddy]

I concluded that you'd have to make the deck not Pox to make it better. Forgive me for being a less inventive and dedicated Pox player.

anyone playing this deck for a long period of time and who was familiar with its style and structure would come to the same conclusions as I did.

Well, you're right. I can't disagree with the bolded, above. My conclusions, however, lead me to think more about it, not give up entirely. Some of my conclusions, excluding s33kr1t t3chs:

1. Dedicated land destruction is overrated.
2. Discard does not win games alone.
3. 4 Poxes is too many.
4. If creatures are the win condition, *run more creatures*!

My Pox list looks very different from the standard mono list. I come here to suggest things obliquely and to find out what everyone else who's interested is thinking.

[Aggro_zombies]

Well, you're right. I can't disagree with the bolded, above. My conclusions, however, lead me to think more about it, not give up entirely. Some of my conclusions, excluding s33kr1t t3chs:

1. Dedicated land destruction is overrated.
2. Discard does not win games alone.
3. 4 Poxes is too many.
4. If creatures are the win condition, *run more creatures*!

My Pox list looks very different from the standard mono list. I come here to suggest things obliquely and to find out what everyone else who's interested is thinking.

Well, in that case, I'm interested in seeing it, by PM if you don't want to post it here. Before I stopped playing the deck, I had cut the Sinkholes entirely and switched to just using Wastelands as land destruction (I think you can find one of my last lists somewhere earlier in the thread). If I had to suggest a direction to take this deck in, I'd probably start with the following:

4 Bayou
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Swamp
2 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Barren Moor

4 Mox Diamond

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Fulminator Mage

3 Life from the Loam
4 Living Wish
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach/Cabal Therapy
4 Smallpox
2 Pox
4 Pernicious Deed

SB:
1 Wasteland
1 Genesis
1 Eternal Witness
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Tombstalker/Grave-Shell Scarab
10 Other Stuff: Krosan Grip, Leyline of the Void, Engineered Plague, etc.

Yes, it looks more like a Rock deck than a Pox deck, and in many ways I'm rather tempted to take it in that direction because The Rock is a very strong deck. In any case, here you use Living Wish to get a toolbox of Unpleasant Things (tm), with Genesis acting as infinite Goyf or Mage recursion and Witness working well with the symmetrical destruction effects you run to act as an unlimited supply of Regrowths. Fulminator Mage + Volrath's Stronghold is a maindeck Waste-lock that can also beat for two. Blowing up your own Goyfs with Deed is unpleasant but really unimportant in the long run because you have so many ways to get them back. I guess you could also run Oracle of Nectars in the sideboard if you're worried about life loss or if you wanted to run more Pox. Kitchen Finks would work too, but I'm not sure about the in the cost and Witness has a more desirable effect anyway if you're going to have to bend over backwards for double green mana. I suppose you could drop the Moxen for more discard or disruption or something, but they provide mana fixing and about a third of your lands aren't really lands you want to play anyway.

Alternately, you could go for a Madness-esque build:

20-22 lands

4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla
3 Arrogant Wurm
2 Genesis
4 Brain Gorgers
2 Grave Scrabbler

4 Thoughtseize
4 Other discard
4 Smallpox
2-3 Pox
4 Survival of the Fittest
1-3 Life from the Loam

Note that both of these approaches stray from the "Pox as a tempo deck" approach. Pox is a hideous tempo deck - if you're looking for tempo, play one of the builds of Threshold that is designed for that. The first of these two builds is more of a control deck that sees Pox as a potential "finisher" or at least as a back-breaking bomb "softener." The second sees Pox as a way to put lots and lots of shit into play at once via Madness, so Pox is a compliment to that strategy (albeit a rather costly one). In either case, and most importantly I think, the deck isn't built around Pox. As I've said previously, Pox is a terrible card, and I'll freely admit that I only put it into these decks because not doing so would make people accuse me of trying to turn the deck into something completely different (which I am trying to do, in a way). Also note that, of these two samples, the first is the best one to try fitting Garruk into, though he plays less with Pernicious Deed because his tokens can't be recurred.

And finally, I realize that both of these lists are rough. I typed them up on the train to school, with no testing or foundation to go off of other than previous experience with similar decks. However, I would say that they make a good departure point for considering what needs to be done to this deck to make it good.

Well, with that I think I'll stop causing drama here. Like I've said, I put this deck down before Future Sight came out because I didn't see much of a future for it. If other people want to continue working on it, more power to you. I'm just not particularly interested in it anymore.

[Clark Kant]

Here is some tourney winning pox lists if you're interested...

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?ty...&format=Legacy

[FluffyPinkBunnies]

why are you all raping pox?

it should be played solid black and maybe the addition of small pox none of this wild mongrel crap

i say use the original list, id swap out 4 diabolic edicts for 3 small pox and another land

[Cait_Sith]

I cut Pox entirely from my Pox lists. Smallpox is excellent on its own and successfully attacks a wide variety of resources.

Also, I found that a splash can be good, but the only one worth it is Green, and then only because Deed is amazing.

Even then, it isn't often worth the havoc you wreak on your mana base.

[Finn]

I cut Pox entirely from my Pox lists.

Yep, me too - about three years ago. When I discovered that Pox was the worst card in Pox, I knew it was time to get out of dodge. I wish there was a way to warn unsuspecting newcomers.

[Cait_Sith]

I actually fought to keep Pox in my lists, but I ultimately decided that spot removal would be better.

Hey, it is!

The point of Pox is to attack all their resources at once, but having more control over the effect I find trumps hitting for more stuff.

I actually use Md Extirpate now because of its ability readily run them (my opponents) out of creatures. although not so hot versus the, admittedly rare, dedicated aggro decks, Extirpate can often be the key to simply wiping out.

My Pox deck has partially evolved into running them entirely out of gas. So much so that I have begun to test Damnation MD in some lists.

[mujadaddy]

Damnation MD

I've been coming to that conclusion, too.

[Clark Kant]

As I said before, I absolutely would never ever go below 2 Poxes.

I personally think 3 is perfect, and 4 works well too.

The strenght of the deck is not discard (most black decks play the same discard suite).

The strenght is the land destruction (supplemented by the discard). It plays 22+ land destruction spells to ensure you can blow up every land they run in the deck, and consistnetly keep them at 1 land tops.

Pox is land destruction + discard + removal, all while feeding your yard so you can cast Tombstalker four turns earlier.

Yes, you can wait and play it optimally to generate card advantage. But you don't need to.

Taking out both their creature, and their last land and a card too is plenty powerful.

Way more so than playing singleton removal spells like Smother.

[mujadaddy]

Well, the real strength of Pox the card is, in my opinion, the untargeted loss of life. One-third of your opponent's life is a sexy number of which to deprive them.

You and I disagree on the power of land destruction. You emphasize it; I think it's overrated, as all it does vs. bad matchups is extend the game, and generally not in our favor.

[rleader]

Way more so than playing singleton removal spells like Smother.

Which are more than useless in a lot of game 1s.

My general pox deckbuilding strategy goes like this:

7/8 sideboard cards against combo (trinisphere/leyline/chalice or extirpate)
7 sideboard cards against aggro (prison [although arguably it serves in both columns]/damnation or infest/etc.)

And a main deck that strives to have the fewest dead cards against both. Which is why Powder Keg / EE are so good.

I keep reading in various fora that people "take out their poxes against hard match ups." No kidding. But what card helps to make your easy matches so easy? Pox.

Pox kills scrub decks. It kills decks that are ported from EXT. (not uncommon in a lot of metagames; your pox means they never get to cast garruk or deathcloud.) It kills people who mulligan poorly or try to cheat on their land count. It kills people who haven't had practice with their deck. It kills people used to playing other formats. It's a topdeck that deals with the other person's top deck 75% of the time, potentially dealing with their last three topdecks simultaneously if fate favors you. And since it's so easy, evidently, to know when to sideboard it out in favor of a more specific answer when needed, what's not to like about it?

[Clark Kant]

Very well said.

mujadaddy. Of course I don't expect that you would emphasize land destruction in your build. You said that Wastelands and Sinkholes (and the white splash for Vindicate) is out of your budget.

In such a case, it is definatley preferable to emphasize the discard. And that strategy will work well too.

But if you're not willing or able to try the LD route at all as it's meant to be played, I wouldn't knock going that route as you did on multiple occasions so far.

[mujadaddy]

Well, that's not entirely accurate. I said the white splash was not something I'm interested in because of non-basic hate in the format.

And I used to run 4 sinkholes, but I kept wishing they were something else. So my thoughts on LD are this -- it isn't viable as a strategy. Too often, I would pull 2 sinkhole, 2 smallpox hands, do my worst, and then sit there waiting for enough mana/cards to cast Tombstalker... meanwhile, my opponent hits land drops every turn and gets back up to 4, and I've basically spent the first 7 turns doing nothing.

Perhaps a dedicated LD deck can work, but I think it's too threat-starved.

[Mordenkaynen]

May be it's like a spam to write a list that is not connected directly with things that are discussed now, but may be you can find some new ideas here:

Chalice of smallpox

idea base:
// 2 Chrome Mox
// 3 Lotus Petal
// 3 Chalice of the Void

using mechanic:
// 3 Crucible of Worlds
// 2 Mishra's Factory
// 1 Bloodstained Mire
// 1 Polluted Delta
// 1 Quicksand
// 2 Wasteland
// 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
// 2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
// 7 Swamp

good control cards:
// 3 Unmask
// 4 Sinkhole
// 4 Smallpox
// 4 Hymn to Tourach
// 4 Diabolic Edict
// 2 Umezawa's Jitte
// 2 Damnation

card-need:
// 2 Phyrexian Arena
// 1 Scroll Rack

finishers:
// 3 Chimeric Idol
// 3 Nether Spirit
// + Factory

Then some notes:
1) The deck has to gain life in many match-ups. Jitte is necessary. I don't know other good cards. Some crapy: Rhystic Syphon, Consume Spirit, Soul Spike, (damage) only to a creature: Spinning Darkness, Tendrils of Corruption.
2) factory has some dissinergies:
- with Jitte
- with Idol
3) artifact hate and needle are bad for the deck
4) sometimes manabase shows its instability. LD can be a problem if crucible is not landed.
5) burn is not impossible match

And possible additions:
creatures:
- Epochrasite (also sinergic with spirit)
- Necroplasm
- Braids, Cabal Minion
control:
- Haunting Echoes
- Grave Peril
- Trinisphere
- Smokestack
- Uba Mask
- Engineered Plague

// SB:
- Engineered Plague
- Pithing Needle
- Leyline of the Void
// may be in SB:
- Serum Powder
- Umezawa's Jitte
- Chains of Mephistopheles
- Chalice of the Void
- Powder Keg
- Engineered Explosives
- Wasteland
- Cabal Therapy

[spider900]

My current list is this one:

// Lands
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [A] Swamp
4 [ON] Barren Moor
4 [A] Bayou
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [OD] Cabal Pit
3 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
2 [MM] Nether Spirit
2 [ON] Undead Gladiator

// Spells
2 [9E] Phyrexian Arena
4 [IA] Pox
4 [US] Duress
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [TSP] Smallpox
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [ON] Infest
SB: 4 [OD] Innocent Blood

I've been really happy with this list, any suggestions?

I never found 8 Pox being too much. I also really like the high amount of lands and the general game plan of this deck (controlling the early game with discard, then control the board with the Loam Engine).

So far,
Spider

[Mordenkaynen]

@ spider900 :
You run only 4 1cc cards in main and 8 in side. May be chalice is better in main? It disrupts not less than duress, I think. Also it
- crashes burn and some stompies
- improve the way of 'casting smallpox after smallpox'

Well, it is not sinergic with deed; but steel buys you lots of time and advantage.

[RogueBuild]

I just started playing magic again (only on MWS) after quiting the game for a second time a year ago. One of my old pet decks was Pox. I have long been trying to make this deck work with some level of consistancy. Here is my current list:

Land and Almost Lands:
16 Swamps
4 WasteLands
3 Sheltered Valley
4 Mox Diamonds (I find I am happier pitching extra lands over spells)

Creatures and Could Be Creatures:
1 Nether Spirit
2 Chimeric Idol
4 BitterBlossoms
4 Phyrexian Totem

Everything Else:
3 Pox
4 Small Pox
4 SinkHole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Bottled Cloister

SideBoard:
3 Eng. Plague
4 Pithing Needles
4 Extirpate
4 Powder Kegs

Things I have noticed:

Pox: I started at 4 and often drew more than I wanted. I've bounced between 2 and 3 ever since. I'm still not set on which it should be.

SinkHole and LD in general: I had cut SinkHole down to 2 and cut wastelands out in favor of Mishra's at one point and found it only made it harder for me to disrupt my opponet and gave me 0 noticeable benefit. So they are back in. I am completely unsettled as to how much LD should be in the deck, but I am unsettled about most of the deck.

Sheltered Valley: I loved this card back when it first came out but rare are the deckt hat can truely use it. Pox can not only use it, in my mind it needs it. It helps to counter, or atlest slow downt he suicidal nature of the deck.

Nether Spirit and Idol: Recuring Spirit is great, 2nd Spirit in hand sucks. So I run 2 Idols.

Totems: My most common kill.

BitterBlossoms: My second most common kill. One of the first new cards I saw and included. In fact, seeing this card is what largely lead me to rebuilding Pox. I really think this is what Pox needed. Cheap, flying creature generation that is uneffect by pox, wrath/damnation, red in general, and if cast on turn one can really put the pressure on.

Bottled Cloister: This deck really needs card-draw in a big way. Many of our own spells force us to discard. When you are swinging with a 2/2 or a 3/3 and both players are in topdeck mode; against a large part of the field, Pox is in a lossing battle. It doesnt take much for thresh or goblins to get back on thier feet and thier threats tend to be bigger and faster. The answer is card-draw. I tried Skeletel Scrying and Night's Whisper. Neither were bad (other then I already deal enough damage to myself) they didnt seem to give me enough cards. Rarely did I have enough mana to draw more than 2 with SS. This deck (at lest my build) has no instants so i lose nothing by not having a hand so it becomes a one sided howling mine.

Things I have tried or are considering:

TombStalker: If I ran a true creature in the deck iw ould drop the Nether Spirit. The problem then is the first time you cast Small/Pox you lose it. It doesn't take the hit and keep on ticking. Plus it cant just eat up removal. Not the removal spells in my opponet's hand have real value beyong buying them a turn or two. Plus, with BitterBlossom, I dont think TombStalker is really that important.

Damnation: I think 1 or 2 between the MD and SB might be worth doing. Maybe in place of the 3rd Pox and something else... not sure what...

Extirpate -Vs- LayLine of the Void: I had LLotV in the SB at first. It is great if I get it in my opening hand, but I found that if I had to draw it I often couldnt cast it until it was to late. The problem is it needs to hit the table ASAP. Combo doesnt need a lot of time to go off and Threst hits 7 and then LLotV is meaning less, but to play the deck the way it needs to be played often means not hitting 4 mana until turn 6 or later if at all. By this time the decks that LLotV was good against have already beaten you... you just might not know it yet. Extirpate works with the deck. 1 Black is easy to come by and the deck is packing discard. Killing the first Goyf is easy, it is the 2nd, 3rd and 4th that scare me. With Extirpate they never see play.

I think that covers everything I wanted to say.
Oh, personally, if I was going to splash a 2nd color I would likely just scrap it as a Pox deck build a Bk/__ deck from the ground up

[Clark Kant]

Re: Chalice.

I play 4 Chalice in the sideboard in every pox version. It's a must have against combo, and solid versus burn (the only 1cc card most builds play is Duress), then you have a slim chance of winning by keeping them from getting over one land in play.

Undead Gladiator is a horrid creature here, don't play it.

Tombstalker is insanely strong after disruption. Absolutely play it, atleast as a 3 of. Each small pox or Pox reduces Tombstalkers cc by atleast three.

Like I said, I play 3-4 Pox. A pox, a small pox, a fetchland or two, and Tombstalker is an evasive two turn clock that's out of burn's range.

If they Swords it, hey you gained 5 life.

It's black so it avoids most other removal including Smother, Snuff Out, Vendetta and Ghastly Demise.

It really is not that easy to deal with, and it just wins games outright, and fast.

[RogueBuild]

The problem I had with TombStalker is that the style of play fits too well with the deck and it's history. Pox has always had a problem with dumping it's hand for a quick advantage but once in top-deck mode against almost any deck, it is completely out of gass. TombS helps to empty the tank.

This is what I found happening a lot.

I'm on the draw.
Turn 1: play a swamp and a mox (we will say diamond since this is my prefered mox in this deck, also, the land will go to the GY and not RFG). Now cast HT or depending on what was played by the otherside a Small Pox.
(2 GY, 2 mana on table, 4 cards in hand)

Turn 2:
Play a fetchland and get a swamp (3 cards in gy, 3 mana open, 4 in hand). This time I have to cast SmallPox to kill a land and a creature on the other side. Lose a land, and card. (6 GY, 2 mana in play, 2 cards in hand).

Turn 3:
Draw and cast TombS. If you dont have a 3rd turn land drop your mana is tapped out (hope they dont have a daze) and an empty GY. 2 cards in hand.

If it is countered you have 2 cards left in hand and even if one is a 2nd Tombs you are nowhere near being able to cast it because you GY has 1 card. You are all but out of gas in a deck that commonly does not have card draw.

Now, if it resolves, GREAT!
You have a 5/5 flyer that will die if you play your deck the way it is ment to be played. If you try to play around its large flying butt you will find keeping your opponet under control difficult because you now have to hold onto spells you should be casting as 6-8 cards in the deck would force you to kill it yourself and you need those spells to maintain pressure.

When it dies, and it will die most of the time, where does that leave you? Lets say you make it to turn 5 before it dies and it did 10 damage. You have 3 cards in hand if you haven't cast anything, nothing in your GY and you couldnt cast another Tombs is your life depended on it; which, by-the-way, it does because since you havent been playing the Small/Poxes in your hand the other side of the table now has a few creatures to send your way and you're stuck in topdeck mode doing math to see how many times you need to cast Pox to clear the board and reconsidering not having a Damnation in the deck.

What it really comes down to is this; nearly every tier 1 or 2 deck over the history of magic that ran < or = 4 creatures AND creatures where the primary kill also built the deck to protect them... AKA Blue. (historical examples going way back: Statis w/ Serra, BBS/Big Blue/Draw Go/Counter-Post w/ Rainbow Efreet, Kel. OutPost, Morphling, and PsyaTog in a deck of his own)

Play big creature and keep it alive. Pox runs counter to this idea.

That is why i dont play TombS and continue to play with Nether Spirit and cards that don't die because I played my own spells.

But thats just my 2 cents...

[RogueBuild]

After way to many games with Pox over the past week or so I come to a few conclusions.
1) Pox is too situational a card to be a 3 of (and maybe to be played at all)
2) Damnation is a must.

Here is my current list:

Land and Almost Lands:
16 Swamps
4 WasteLands
2 Sheltered Valley (-1) I didnt really need 3
4 Mox Diamonds (I find I am happier pitching extra lands over spells)

Creatures and Could Be Creatures:
1 Nether Spirit
2 Chimeric Idol
4 BitterBlossoms
4 Phyrexian Totem

Everything Else:
2 Pox (-1) Why cant this card be good enough?
4 Small Pox
3 SinkHole (-1) I needed to drop something for the 3 Damnation
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Bottled Cloister
3 Damnation (+3) to many quick aggro decks causing me trouble.

SideBoard:
3 Eng. Plague
4 Pithing Needles
4 Extirpate
4 Powder Kegs

One thing of note: BitterBlossom has been GREAT!!!
Turn 1 BBlossom followed by a turn 2 SmallPox or SinkHole is my favorite turn1/2 play.