// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
2 [MI] Island (4)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [MR] Ancient Den
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Tundra
1 [B] Scrubland
2 [R] Underground Sea
3 [MR] Seat of the Synod
2 [UNH] Plains
// Creatures
3 [LRW] Jace Beleren
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [ST] Counterspell
2 [TE] Humility
3 [6E] Wrath of God
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [AT] Disenchant
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [IN] Tsabo's Decree
SB: 4 [FUT] Yixlid Jailer
Or something like that... no, seriously, isnt this supposed to be the UW Control thread? Anyways, I posted an awfully generic list, so discuss!
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
counter-balance i'm personally not fond of. i've seen how powerful it can be though. i spose it just doesn't suit my style of play. it's more of a cantrip card than a traditional U/W control card. also you're running all those artifact lands and no thirst for knowledge. personally i'd drop jace (i've tested him a lot in my u/w landstill) for thirst. while jace can be good against control and awesome under a moat he is a clunky card. certainly not a 3-of. he just becomes force of will fodder in those numbers. also try and incorporate 1 eternal dragon. if only because it is another recurring win condition. 3 cunning wish can be quite clunky sometimes too... hate having 2 in my hand.
so perhaps
-1 cunning wish
-1 decree
-2 jace
+1 counterspell
+1 eternal dragon
+2 thirst for knowledge
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
I hope this isn't considered a necro, but I've been developing a U/W Control list, and I thought this would be a good place to post it (excuse my drunkenness--I'll edit!). I'll be happy to provide an explanation of the deck, but you should probably see the list first:
Creatures: 3
3 Eternal Dragon
CA/CQ: 10
4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction
2 Cunning Wish
Permission: 10
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare/Mana Leak
Board Control: 14
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
4 Back to Basics
3 Vedalken Shackles
1 Abolish
Lands: 23
4 Flooded Strand
10 Island
7 Plains
2 Tundra
Sideboard: 15
3 Abolish
2 Orim's Chant
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Wipe Away
2 Humility
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Decree of Justice
1 Spell Snare/Mana Leak
Yes, I've basically taken an MUC deck and added white board control. Most of the time I looked at splashing in MUC to be the equivalent of evolving towards Landstill (thanks to Nilly Credo for asking relevant questions in the MUC thread). This deck, however, is clearly different than UW/x Landstill options because Back to Basics is the mana-denial element of choice. Here was my reasoning for it:
Back to Basics is a very powerful mana-denial card, and in my opinion it is only rivaled by Blood Moon in raw strength. With the large quantity of "goodstuff.decs" around (e.g. Dreadstill), using Stifle/Wasteland and more specialized decks using other mana-denial elements such as Blood Moon and Sinkhole, I'm surprised I haven't seen more decks trying to abuse Back to Basics.
MUC is really the only deck to play Back to Basics in the main. Unfortunately, one of the largest problems with Back to Basics in MUC is that it has conflicts with several board control options. Board control just isn't as powerful when you pigeon-hole yourself into MUC. How do you build around Back to Basics while maintaining very strong board control options?
I think the answer could be choosing to run a 2 or 3 color deck that abuses (although may not be completely immune to) B2B. Back to Basics certainly poses problems for running a multi-color deck, but even if it affects your mana-base by just a bit, it would still be asymmetrical and remain quite powerful.
I've tried U/B builds, and while Tombstalker and Thoughtseize are sexy cards, I think the removal and answers to artifact/enchantments provided by black is lacking compared to both MUC and U/W builds. U/W control offers the strongest permanent solutions to the board that doesn't conflict with Back to Basics. This is why I think U/W decks are the best home of Back to Basics.
Card choices:
Eternal Dragon: One of best control cards I've ever had the opportunity to play. It may appear slow, but it is a card with two different roles. In the early game is the thinning, shuffle effect, and most importantly, it gets you land. In the mid-late game it generates card advantage and a recurring threat. It is a very strong card against other decks which play control cards. I consider it stronger than Morphling, and I continue to try and make this a 4x card.
Cunning Wish: I don't play 3 because I don't ever want to see more than one in my hand.
Spell Snare/Mana Leak: I'm not sure which I prefer. Depends on the metagame.
Vedalken Shackles: I play 3 because this card is broken. It is an auto-3 in any hardcore control deck that doesn't play Intuition+LtfL+Academy Ruins (which is very mana intensive). The card is scary good. Having enough Islands really isn't a problem for this deck either. Shackles is strong enough that Humility/Moat/Wrath of God are actually less important.
Abolish: Gosh, I do wish I could play Green in this deck. KGrip is hot, but B2B limits our choices (although, I've tried variations of U/W/g). Abolish is a compromise. It has a high enough CC to outplay most CB curves, and it improves tempo where you often need it most. This could goto 2x, especially as we have Eternal Dragon to feed it.
Tundra: Yes, I play it in a deck with B2B. The mana-smoothing, even through a wasteland, can be quite powerful. I wouldn't have a problem playing 4x of these, as B2B will still be asymmetrical and very powerful.
Other cards I've been trying:
Sensei's Divining top
Akroma's Vengeance
EE
Misdirection
The strength of this deck is that it has much stronger board control than MUC while still having almost the same control of the stack.
The deck has clear problems with Combo. With permission, Orim's Chant, and CotV (which I consider to be the strongest card against ANT/TES at the moment), the game is at least possible to win. However, U/W control has a good game against Landstill, Threshold, and aggro decks.
peace,
4eak
Why arent you running Decree of Justice? There's a reason why Keeper eschewed Morphling for Decree of Justice.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
@ Citrus-God
I have DoJ in the side, but only as a 1-of. There are certain matches that I consider the card very powerful, but I sometimes find myself very underwhelmed by the card.Why arent you running Decree of Justice? There's a reason why Keeper eschewed Morphling for Decree of Justice.
Eternal Dragon is already very anti-control, and Shackles is really a threat in itself against aggro decks.
What would you suggest doing?
peace,
4eak
Just cut an Abolish and a EDragon for 2 DoJ. You only need two anyway. DoJs are good because you can just create fog effects so you can stabilize by casting Shackles and/or WoG.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
@ Citrus-God
Sounds like a plan; I will test it. As I said, there are only certain matchups where DoJ is really powerful. I think the card becomes stronger in games with Moat and/or Humility, which I don't run, but as I actually run only two WoG's, I have had occasions where I needed a few turns to stabilize (which is why I side the one DoJ in for certain matches).Just cut an Abolish and a EDragon for 2 DoJ. You only need two anyway. DoJs are good because you can just create fog effects so you can stabilize by casting Shackles and/or WoG.
My concern with removing EDragon is that the card is just so relevant throughout the game. I expect to abuse at least 1 during every game, and going to 2 really limits how often I see them.
As for Abolish, I just don't like being caught without a MD answer to artifacts/enchantments. I realize that we could rely upon CWish to get our disenchant effects, but CWish clues my opponent where as a maindeck DE gives an informationless out. I consider this the tempo version of Akroma's vengeance.
I will definitely try it out. I will also test removing the SS/Leak permission slots instead.
peace,
4eak
The build is very interesting. Cunning Wish looks rather meh in there, though. You can't grab Extirpate, PotF alone isn't enough to beat burn since Eternal Dragon is slow as balls and they can just mana burn to disable the Instant. At that point you might as well straight out run Dismantling Blow instead.
Personally, I would play 2 Pithing Needles in that slot. There's plenty of targets going around, most of which you hate to see (in fact, I was about to suggest Oblivion Ring but EE@3, especially if recursed via Academy Ruins, already hurts you enough).
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
@4eak.
With your build, you'll lose to 80% of all grave-based decks. Ichorid being the most obvious one, but there's plenty more obviously.
I'd consider 2 Tormod's Crypts + 2 Relic of Progenitus in your SB.
Also: 4 B2B seems overkill in the MD - especially since many archetypes have added 3-5 basic lands to their core.
MUC can make better use of that partial mana denial since they run Propaganda - I don't see a similar synergy in your deck.
Also Dragon as your only killcon? His cycling ability opens you even more to GGs against Extirpate - get Morphling/Meloku/Rainbow Efreet in there, somehow, I'd say.
@ Nihil Credo
I don't like Cunning Wish. I put the card in out of sheer habit. Cunning Wish let's me build less precisely (;P). I'll be happy to test without it.The build is very interesting. Cunning Wish looks rather meh in there, though.
Enlightened tutor will also need to be tested I think. Alongside singleton Moat/Humility and the B2B's it could be worth it.
Would you play Pithing Needle over Stifle?Personally, I would play 2 Pithing Needles in that slot.
My original build actually had Stifle. It was decent, and I enjoyed having it in the combo match.
Perhaps:
Creatures: 4
2 Eternal Dragon
2 DoJ
CA/CQ: 10
4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction
2 Enlightened Tutor (silver-bullet.dec, oy!)
Permission: 8
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
Board Control: 14
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
4 Back to Basics
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Humility/Moat
1 Pithing Needle
Lands: 24 (with fewer E-Dragons, this should be 24)
4 Flooded Strand
11 Island
7 Plains
2 Tundra
@ klaus
Aye. Ichorid is an ugly match. It is a unique combo deck in my eyes. Propaganda and/or Moat would be necessary in addition to straight graveyard hate to have a solid match against them.With your build, you'll lose to 80% of all grave-based decks. Ichorid being the most obvious one, but there's plenty more obviously.
I'd consider 2 Tormod's Crypts + 2 Relic of Progenitus in your SB.
Yeah, you are right, I could use some GY hate in the side.
Other GY-based decks aren't actually that terrible though. B2B really changes the game. Aggro-Loam and Threshold are the other GY-based decks I see, but these are much closer to 50/50 or better matches.
Without E-tutor or additional cantrips, if B2B is worth playing at all, then it should probably be played as a 4-of. The card is that necessary. But, I will test it again at 3.Also: 4 B2B seems overkill in the MD
Like Stifle/Wasteland, B2B isn't a complete mana denial package (I don't think there is a reliable and complete one in Legacy). But, it doesn't have to be. Even if they play a few basics, B2B wins games because it just puts you too far ahead. The synergy with Propaganda is not what makes B2B worth playing.MUC can make better use of that partial mana denial since they run Propaganda - I don't see a similar synergy in your deck.
I'm not against running Propaganda. But, one of the reasons I dislike permanant-based MUC versions (the version that plays Propaganda) is that they don't actually deal with the threat, and often, that threat comes down too early. Splashing gives you a much stronger early game, and this is why propaganda, even with its synergy, is not as necessary. White offers plenty of permanent solutions, which is why I've removed the more temporary answer of Propaganda in favor of white board control. I've seen people pay to swing their Goyf through propaganda too many times.
A large number of decks I play against are multi-colored aggro-control decks with a blue-based shell and a disruptive land destruction suite (Stifle/Wasteland). This deck has a better match than both Landstill and MUC against those decks. B2B is amazing against most of the DTB, but you have to live long enough to take advantage of it.
This deck retains MUC's near-immunity to almost all competitive forms of mana-denial, but also maintains solid board control through tempo-oriented control cards like StP which prove invaluable in a format that is overrun with decks that often only have 8-12 creatures to begin with.
Yeah, perhaps I need 1 other win condition besides Dragon+Shackles+DoJ. Exalted Angel is a common choice, but I'm not too impressed with it.Also Dragon as your only killcon? His cycling ability opens you even more to GGs against Extirpate - get Morphling/Meloku/Rainbow Efreet in there, somehow, I'd say.
Morphling is very mana intensive, specifically, the U cost on its primary abilities could be a problem, but he merits testing. Meloku is a great card, but we've already got a ton of board control. Efreet suffers even worse than Morphling in color requirements; he soaks up the blue mana too much.
Have any other suggestions? Or, do you think DoJ would be fine?
peace,
4eak
Has anyone considered Windreaver as a kill-con. Before you bust a knee-jerk reaction and say that its a weak-sauce Morphling, first consider that Windreaver survives Wrath (pretty effing key IMO) and is easier to cast in a multicolor deck.
In my UW deck I had been running Crovax as a kill-con, because it, too, survives everything. But I was getting frustated with a lack of Blue cards to pitch to FoW. So Windreaver is my current compromise, but would like the communities input before I continue...
Here's the maindeck:
Land:
4 fetch, 4 duals, 4 shock-lands, 8 plains, 3 islands
Instants:
4 Impulse
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 StP
4 Counterspell
4 FoW
Sorceries
2 WoG
Enchantments
4 O-Ring
4 Runed Halo
2 Moat
Kill-con
2 Elspeth
3 Windreaver
Editted cause I forgot Moat
I dont think a creature is the best kind of win condition for this deck. Sacred mesa and elspeth are just better.
Team Unicorn: We're horny...get it?
I'm going to second Elspeth here, from my experience with her in landstill. I know that she looks like a bad bitterblossom, or even a bad mobilization, and sometimes she is, but more often she's actually a 4/4 angel with flying that comes back after removal.
Recheck my list and you'll see that I already run Elspeth, to whom I concur is the best white kill-con ever made. She's not a kjeldoran-outpost/mobilization knock-off. She's an unkillable Air Elemental.
Unfortunately, she's not enough. Hence my search for kill-cons #3-5, and my interest in Windreaver.
As for Sacred Mesa: I've run Mobilization in a Moat-less form of this deck with much success, so I know that Sacred Mesa would work fine. But I'm trying to increase the number of Blue cards in order to make my FoW's more reliable.
Another consideration of mine is Genju of the Falls. Its essentially a man-land that is immune to Wastelands (tho it is succeptible to CB.) Since my meta has much more Wasteland than CB, and Genju can be dumped to FoW (unlike other man-lands) I think it could be pretty good.
Again I'd like to hear from anyone with experience using these cards before I proceed with either Windreaver or Genju.
Sorry about that, I saw beastman's opinion and didn't bother to check your list for myself.
I haven't played a lot of windreaver. I played it in draft once (it owned faces) and then I played it a couple of times casually, but I never really liked it because it was such a huge mana suck. It requires significant, constant investment to do . . . anything.
I would look into stealing mono-blue control's win-conditions (the ones that survived the M10 changes anyway . . . poor Morphling) and look into shackles or Call the Skybreaker. CtS is expensive, but it's a one time thing (unlike Windreaver) and, like Elspeth, returns after removal. It also kills Tombstalker, which is huge. Everyone knows how good shackles is.
I got bored of Landstill, so I messed around with UW Control instead, and I'm not afraid to say that it's better than Landstill in many ways. Here's what I have so far. I can't say I've done very much, but Boseiju so far has been amazing. I also get the option of tapping out against decks like Merfolk and get around Counterbalance super effectively. Very cool card. Here's my list
// Mana 25
2 Eternal Dragon
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Dust Bowl
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Plains
4 Island
// Spells 36
3 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Etched Oracle
4 Brainstorm
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Cunning Wish
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Wrath of God
// Sideboard 15
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Path to Exile
1 Tsabo's Decree
1 Extirpate
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Return to Dust/Fracturing Gust
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
So far, Etched Oracle and 3 FoFs replacing 4 Standstills has been amazing. Standstill has never been great for me because Merfolk players will Spell Snare it (especially if they know you run Wastelands), you cant play them in a losing position, you board them out frequently and you cant cast them over a Counterbalance without expecting it to be countered.
But the best part of this build is Counterbalance. Sure, you could run Counterbalance and Top in the board with the old Standstill build, but will your mana base be consistent enough to drop Counterbalance on Turn 2? Definitely not. But this build has been amazing so far, and I'm keeping it like this. Elspeth helps finish games faster, makes FoF piles scarier and is multifunctional as both a control card and threat.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
@Citrus: How is your list any better than landstill? Just because you run cb? I guess I don't see it.
Co-Founder of Team Awesome - I heard Randy Buehler say a while back that good players give themselves the most number of turns to find the answer.
The Source on MTGO - Predator8785 and RockOut
Just a better mana base, I make less mulligans, I dont have to sideout my draw engine against match ups like Merfolk and Vial Goblins, and FoF is outside of Counterbalance range.
Those reasons may seem small (which they are), but I'm not objectively telling you all that this deck is better than Landstill in a sense where this deck can win more games for you in the long run. If anything, it's a thing of preference for me (subjective) and I hate to mulligan. Oh, and I hate it when Thrash Spell Snares my Standstills; it makes me so angry!
But the cons are definitely less random wins against random bad decks just by resolving Standstill and it's harder to play with FoF because you have to make more decisions like picking piles, casting, and deciding to either play around or into Force Spike effects and such. Also, FoF is hugely interactive, so more headaches.
But I'm liking Top. I dont like it in the maindeck because of the lack of room and I dont want to cut Blue cards, but they're awesome because you just side out your less important cards for them post board (they always get boarded in). You don't always board in Counterbalance, but if you do, it's usually against Aggro Loam, Survival, Goyf Sligh, Zoo, opposing Control decks, Vial Goblins (not kidding), Mighty Quinn, and such. Basically, decks that arent well equipped to fight a heavier CC range Counterbalance deck.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
So I think I found an answer to my conundrum (see post #31) concerning a lack of Blue spells to pitch to FoW while still maintaining a resilient Kill-Con. But the answer is sketchy and could use some feedback, so w/o further adue:
-4x Hallowed Fountain (U/W shockland)
+4x Fieldmist Borderpost
The deck looks like this now:
Mana: 24
4x Duals
4x Fetchlands
5x Island
6x Plains
1x Mistveil Plains
4x Fieldmist Borderpost
Removal:
4x StP
4x O-Ring
4x Wrath of God (maybe 2x WoG and 2x EE)
Defense:
4x Runed Halo
Counters:
4x Counterspell
4x FoW
Draw:
4x Impulse
4x Accumulated Knowledge
Kill-con:
2x Elspeth
2x Mobilization
Fieldmist Borderpost increases my #Blue spells to 20 (including FoW), and functions as a White permanent for Mistveil Plain to allow me to recur my Kill-Cons (not much can exile a PW or Enchantment, so GY recursion should be sufficient). But this leads to 5 mana sources that come into play tapped, which is pretty grim.
So what do we think?
So I used to play UW control in standard...and now that i have flooded strands I want to make a UW control deck. So what do you think?
Instants: 17
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
3 mana leak
4 swords
2 fact or fiction
Sorceries: 2
2 Armageddon
Artifacts: 5
3 crucible of worlds
2 Wrath of God
Enchantments: 6
2 ghostly prison
4 propaganda
Creatures: 3
3 Baneslayer Angel
Planeswalkers: 2
2 Jace Mind Sculptor
Land: 25
4 floodedstrand
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
4 wu dual
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Mishra’s Factory
Sideboard:
4x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's divining Top
2x Disenchant
2x Meddling Mage
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Relic of Progenitus
Last edited by kinda; 03-15-2010 at 11:55 PM.
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