Totally missed this. I feel obligated to reply.all im going to say about hanni is the dude is over in every other thread as well trying to mix decks around. check out his white splash thresh list which features such heavy hitters as elspeth and w.o.g.
What's wrong with innovation? Isn't that how we get new and improved decks constantly? Have you tried the CounterTop deck I posted to know whether it's any good or not? Rhetorical questions, they don't need answered.
I would say so too, but REB can counter Ancestral Visions... then again, taking out their bombs might be a better play here.Originally Posted by konsultant
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Or just abuse Counterbalance, since you have similar curves...I would say so too, but REB can counter Ancestral Visions... then again, taking out their bombs might be a better play here.
They have REBs to fight over Counterbalance against us. And they have EEs, Spell Snares, FoWs, EEs and such.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
I'm guessing EE is really important, given the double emphasis?They have REBs to fight over Counterbalance against us. And they have EEs, Spell Snares, FoWs, EEs and such.
REB is definitely a strong tool. It gives them a huge advantage.
However, I personally run 4 BEB's. So honestly, it's fight fire with fire.
Everything else in [my] deck gives me a superior control matchup. I'll go into this in detail with you if you want to PM me or hit me up on messenger.
EDIT: You didn't reply fast enough, so I'm off to the bar.
I know BEB is dead against them, but it answers Ajani and their REB's, which is a better replacement for WoG's than anything else. Oblivion Rings aren't bad to bring in either, since they handle Planeswalker's, but seriously... Counterbalance is a beating once it resolves. EE is their only good answer, for which I do run 4 Counterspells... if they get a Ruins lock going, sure, but I also have a stronger Standstill presence vs them because I run Decree. I'm not saying it's a great matchup, but honestly, how often do you really expect to run into that matchup...?
It's painful man. EE is huge against the format.
But here's the problem, BEB only protects your threats, doesn't stop your opponent's threats.REB is definitely a strong tool. It gives them a huge advantage.
However, I personally run 4 BEB's. So honestly, it's fight fire with fire.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
(Hanni)
I'm not going to go into great detail about white splash thresh. but its quite common knowledge that the deck sacrifices overall reach to play the best (most efficient) spells in the format. by doing so it doesn't need to run reset buttons which become (win-more) and are also dead against virtually any kind of control (including aggro control). To quickly respond it's not innovation. Let me ask u. Do YOU really think the better thresh pilots of the world didn't test w.o.g. or elspeth, initially and make a judgement call based on said cards abilities to win games?
and it's quite funny that u have this middle ground of efficiency in landstill ala cb in the maindeck. its like u have a middle ground between thresh and landstill but u cant find it.
also beb is amazing against ajani vengeant wastelock forbid.dec it helps stop the initial plainswalker and honestly its the visions and wastelock that kill u. not anything else. but bring in cb and they have forbid.force.2ee.and maybe 3 blast to deal with it. personally i think somebody must be joking arpund here because i dont buy how ee is as strong for them as it is for u with said reach plus wish
They were rhetorical questions, mossivo. I'm not going to get into a discussion about Thresh in the Landstill thread, and I'm not going to waste my time explaining something to you that you're too hardheaded to understand. Continue to make funny jokes all you want. I'll worry about your opinions after you actually test the ideas, otherwise, it's a waste of my time to respond to you.
I'm not trying to play devil's advocate here, but why don't you post some results instead? I don't always agree with the choices Mossivo makes, but at least he's got results to back them up.
Maybe you have them too, I don't know. But right now it's just theorycraft vs actual results (mossivo, gustha and let's not forget konsultant) and I'm sorry but I have to say I'd rather play the decks/use the choices that get the results.
Please don't see this as an attack on your person.
Hello friend.
Hanni hasn't been able to make many tournaments due to work/location/whatever. He's said so a million times, but I agree. The ideas are cool and innovative but to get people to listen, well, money talks
Like who here would discount Geoff? Hanni, you must agree you're a lot easier to write off, due to lack of results and that's something you'll have to make up for somehow. Not saying your ideas are bad/not worth trying, but it's a rough sell without results.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
+2 On results argument. Nuff' Said.
Easy men, easy...
As for the results argument, well money talks, ofc. But as I mean it, actually playing a deck doesn't mean copying what one or more skilled player plays because "well, there are results, so if I put this and this and this together, well, this is unbeatable etc.". Remember that it's not the sword that wins a fight, but the arm that wields it. Actually playing a deck means also to be curious to find out new experiences, versions variants, etc. If you want to criticize whoever's version, put together the cards and test it against diverisifed fields. So yes, tournament resuls matter. But someone please will tell me when this variant will get to have relevant tournament results if there is only one player that plays it? You see it's a vicious circle.
[It's true that sometimes it seems hanni is claiming too strongly things about his list only he knows (being the only who actually tested it). I'll beg moderation on both sides.]
Don't want/have the courage to test it? Fine. But if the only reason is that this newborn version has not get relevant tournament results, it's simply silly. Mossivo don't want test it because he doesn't basically want to get rid of snares and explosives, which are two of the most powerful spells in landstill as I see it: hanni's version is simply totally out of his mental schemes. That's fine. But that doesn't logically mean the deck is crap. So Ectoplasm and the rest, if you want to test it, build the deck and have some games with your friends, don't wait for results, make your own!
(I'm saying this only for moderation's sake. I don't owe nothing to hanni nor he is my best friend.)
How does everyone feel about the spell Meditate?.
Does it see any play? Or is it too weak to give up a turn to gain cards?
i dont think we can give up a turn, it defeats the purpose of wrath of god, vindicates, standstill etc. You draw standstill and give up a turn so they build board position and now you can't play standstill anymore. Same with wrath in which timing is important because you want to play that as soon as they commit enough creatures to give you card advantage. If you give them an extra turn you can't clear the board before all those creatures get in some damage which is bad if it drops you down to like 5. for 4 mana you get fact or fiction. For 2 you get standstill which is much more synergistic to this deck than meditate. Instant speed brainstorm and card filtering with sensei's top should be more than enough draw. I haven't seen anyone playing meditate in landstill yet. Personally if i wanted another draw 3 i'd just play ancestral vision.
Went a modest 3-3 today in an 48-man, Beating zoo, Rock and some goblin/sligh homebrew, losing to faeries and twice to Ichorid. Some random thoughts:
Ajani Goldmane straightup won the game every time he touched the board
It's possible to beat Ichorid without GY hate
Changing your sideboard at the last minute, removing GY hate to pack combo hatebears isn't a good idea (met 2 of the grand total of 3 ichorid players in the room, and 0 of the approx. 44 ANT players)
Props:
Ajani
Slops:
The Dutch metagame for being everywhere
If there's interest (which I doubt) I'll post some more details but for now I'm gonna go sleep.
Hello friend.
Report from the Meandeck Open in Columbus, OH. I won't waste time with making a thread in the Reports forum. Not the greatest of days, going 2-2-1 and ID'ing with a teammate. Let me just say, I definitely misread a LOT pre-tournament, and definitely paid for it. Will explain SB choices here in a moment.
List ran:
Anyhow, I was expecting a heavy aggro meta for this, and from what I did see, definitely reflected it. Anyhow, I figured the 'pates were good for the Combo matchup + expected newfound Entomb decks, Perish was great for NO-CB and maybe even Zoo in general. Probably should have just did the +1 Path, +1 Negate like a normal SB.Code:// Lands 1 [B] Underground Sea 2 [GUR] Plains 2 [GUR] Island 1 [ON] Polluted Delta 2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats 1 [B] Scrubland 4 [R] Tundra 3 [ON] Flooded Strand 1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2) 1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3) 1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1) 1 [GUR] Swamp 1 [FUT] Tolaria West 2 [TE] Wasteland 1 [TSP] Academy Ruins // Creatures 1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant 1 [SC] Eternal Dragon // Spells 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives 3 [R] Wrath of God 3 [SC] Decree of Justice 4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares 4 [AL] Force of Will 3 [OD] Standstill 3 [5E] Brainstorm 3 [ST] Counterspell 2 [DIS] Spell Snare 1 [CFX] Path to Exile 3 [DD2] Fact or Fiction 3 [AP] Vindicate // Sideboard SB: 2 [MOR] Negate SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate SB: 2 [DK] Preacher SB: 2 [TE] Perish SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
Misplays were definitely really, really costly, and with my luck only at crucial times. Probably could be sitting on at least 3-1-1 instead of 2-2-1 going into the last round to give me a shot at T8. Anyhow, without further ado, I'll try to be brief, but there's quite a bit, and it gives me a chance to whine a little. A lot of eye rolling / "fml" from myself, as I became a little more angry at my metagame call each game.
Round 1: Richard Linscott with Blue Stax
I keep a hand with 2 blue fetches, a Factory, FoF, and CS. I lay a fetch and pass. He opens on the draw with City of Traitors and Chalice @1. Whoa. Didn't see that one. I'm reading Stax/Stompy variant obviously, but there's no color added. I wait it out. Feel a little more calm. His next play is a Seat of the Synod, so I read Tezzeret Stax. I draw into a Wasteland, kill the Seat, and pass the turn. He lays an Island and doesn't play anything. I build up my land count to 4, never seeing anything threatening because he *can't* play anything. I then FoF at the end of his turn, bluffing the "omg-I-want-EE" look while holding on to one. Thanks for the draw-4. I blow up Chalice, Brainstorm a bit, and beat face with Factory for the win.
Siding: +2 Negate, +3 Extirpate, +1 Crucible, +1 Crypt. Oddly enough, no notes on what I took out, although I'm assuming some of the creature removal cards.
Game 2 is a little scary, since I don't see a Factory when he's beating me with one. I do hear, however, that DoJ soldier tokens block Factory really well, so even if he has me agitated with Thorn of Amethyst, I cycle it for enough to take down a Factory. I then answer on consecutive turns Smokestack (CS), Crucible (NEG), and Tezzeret (FoW), while the soldier tokens get there. He reveals to me after the game (through my puzzlement) that he has no Metalworker to help drop things.
2-0 games, 1-0 matches.
Round 2: Joe Ross with LED-Ichorid.
This is definitely the match where I wanted to punt my deck across the room. Not a whole ton of notes for this one, but I punted a post-sided g2 (lost g1 to a stripped hand with 2-3 Cabal Therapy and a very large GGT) with a really crappy draw. Game one was a blowout, I have here that I swords a threshold'ed Putrid Imp (ugh...).
Siding: +3 Extirpate, +3 Engineered Plague, +1 Path, +1 Crypt (Yikes!), -3 Standstill, -2 Spell Snare, -3 Fact or Fiction.
I start off pretty good, Extirpating a Stinkweed Imp after he has no lands (Ichorid food + Dredging). Factories get him to 5, and he starts to dredge into real stuff. At this point, I've drawn nosources to take care of anything, and when I finally get a Wasteland to assassinate my own Factory and take out his bridges, there's already 7 Zombies out, and it's a lost cause. Was holding a Tolaria West for most of the game with no second
source too to get Crypt / EE. My hand consisted of DoJ, StP, StP, PtE, and Vindicate. Thanks, luck.
2-2 games, 1-1 matches
Round 3: Bob Holland (JEDI KNIGHT from The Source, part of Team Akron)
Bob's a really chill guy, and we tend to have fun games anyways, as we seem to always get paired up when my team and I go to Wadsworth. I had thought he was playing B/U Reanimator, but instead he's doing the traditional BGW Trix deck that he ran (Mesmeric Field/Tidehollow/Bob/Goyf control-ish stuff). Game one I mulled to 6, but around the time where I started to gain card advantage, Bob scooped with 4 lands in hand, and me with 2 active Factories.
Siding: +3 Extirpate (right call? Eh), +1 Path, -3 Standstill, -1 Fact or Fiction. Game two, an early Hymn to Tourach takes a FoW and WoG (kinda my fault for siding out 4 blue's), and although I'm able to stabilize, he plays Choke (damn tertiary), and I didn't see it coming. We scoop and go to game three while he beats my face in with a Jitte'ed Tidehollow Sculler.
Game three starts off about the same as the second game, except I am able to stabilize through Choke with a Tolaria West (LOL
3-3-1 games, 1-1-1 matches
Round 4: Stephen Menendian (Smmenen on The Source) playing 3c CB-Thresh (with tricks)
So, everyone pretty much knows Stephen, as he is, after all, the celebrity host of our tournament here. I knew he played 3c CB-Thresh from the Meandeck in August, but that's about it. Whatever, right? What's the worst that can happen?
I think Stephen actually took down more notes than I did regarding this matchup. I was kind of on tilt for the entire matchup, kinda awkward when you know the dude across from you by reputation. Game one starts off with playing fetches and starting at each other, until he wants to resolve a Bob and I can't let it hit the table. Force meets Force, but I send Bob farming the next turn. Indeed, still UGb Thresh. We trade land drops, cantrips, and whatnot for a couple of turns, and Stephen taps for 2 and makes... a Vampire Hexmage. Whoa, fuck.Luckily, no Dark Depths on the table, and I fight to make an EE @ 2 stick on the board. Realizing that everything in his deck is 2cc, I felt good about upping the count to 3 (and Tolaria West to tutor for it) in the MD. I get Clique'ed twice in this game, both of which made me really miss having them in the original LS build, but the first puts away a Force of Will, which draws into a WoG. I take a Goyf + Vendilion Clique with it the following turn. When I finally rip an Academy Ruins to start recurring EE @ 2 with StP backup, Stephen Cliques me the second time (after recursion + draw step), and knowing 4 of the 5 cards in my hand, didn't see the FoW that I drew the previous turn. Factory pressure and a Standstill is enough for him to scoop to game two.
Siding: +3 Extirpate, +1 PtE, -3 Fact or Fiction, -1 Decree of Justice.
I have to mull to 5 on this game, as I do not see fetches or decent mana sources in my first two hands. And I'm on the play. Ugly. LotV starts off in play on Menendian's side, and I'm kind of giving a puzzling look. Oh yeah, I forgot about that whole recursion thing last game. We play fetches and stare at each other again, and he plays Bob. I try to Snare it. No dice. He plays a second Bob the turn after, and all of the sudden, I'm feeling really nervous. Bobs net him 4 cards (I think, notes are a little scribbly at this point). Before they're taken out by an EE @ 2. I have a Wasteland sitting on my side, and eventually I draw into 2 Extirpates and a Force in my hand. Counterbalance/Top is eventually assembled on his side, but I'm able to play another EE @ 2 (costing 3), to take it out. Goyf beats me down to 5 life, but with a DoJ, I'm able to stall with soldier chump blockers while I find a Vindicate for it. I decide to use Extirpate on the Goyf while he still has two left. Force of Will gets 'pated within the next few turns, and for the rest of the game, I trade Counterspells and spot removal for his threats. I do believe soldiers + Elspeth get there after a Factory gets Grip'ed.
5-3 games, 2-1-1 matches
Round 5: Stephen Hara with Merfolk
Stephen's on my team, and has an inside joke with me when I played Dredge for three whole weeks. I know this is a terrible matchup, so I guess I won't go into the specifics. All I will say about this match is, getting a tapped Mutavault instead of the 7/7 Wake Thrasher coming in for lethal with Preacher is an face palming way to die. This is one matchup that I didn't test well before this tournament, but hope to improve on. God, that was ugly.
6-5 games, 2-2-1 matches
Round 6: Harrison Laws with Enchantress
Harrison's my buddy and fellow Culture Crew branch of our team, and we do an ID for the last round, but decide to play it out. I get crushed, and realize that Disk+Elspeth > Enchantress, which I am running only one of the said cards in 1x. What a beating, and makes me miss the original list.
So I end the night 2-2-2. Things I like about this list: more Swords effects are definitely great, but I didn't see Zoo or more aggro based decks today to reap the benefits of more maindeck spot removal and/or cheaper Countermagic (in the form of Spell Snare). I also didn't get to play this against TES and try the Extirpates, but they were okay when I sided them in. Taking a Goyf as an uncounterable 4(or 3/2)-for-1 sometimes is okay when you're stabilizing, but it's gimmicky. No Disk, and seeing Elspeth only a few times in the entire tournament was something that I was not accustomed to. I like the inevitability and reset-button nature with Disk and what it brings to this list.
Anyhow,
Props:
Decent start at 2-1-1 with hopes for sniffing T8
Meeting Joel, mossivo1986 (needs no introduction here!) at the tournament, but didn't get to visit with him for long.
Vindicate!
Recurring EE with Academy Ruins.
Seeing Team Akron, always good times when they come down
Going to BD's after the tournament to hang out
Slops:
Making terrible calls on the metagame (didn't expect Dredge, didn't see Entomb-based decks, didn't run into Zoo once, wasted slots on Perish in SB).
Finishing the day 0-1-1
Shitty draws against Dredge
Tapped Mutavaults
Not having Disk
Skipping a lot of homework this weekend to test/play in this tournament
Yeah, I think that about covers it.
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
Follow me on Twitter: @AllSunsDawn
@all : I'am sorry, but i can't find that list/event can please somebody help me, that would be nice, thank you !
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...t=14720&page=5
@Morbid
Why perish?
Even when you expect a lot of green you already have 3 WoG, 4 plow, 1pte,...
I also think that running 3 explosives + Tolaria West is too much.
As a final note I think that you boarded in extirpate way too many times. I know it is tempting to do but you have to board it very carefully.
Personally I would board it against:
- every deck with a loam engine
- combo
- ichorid
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what's for lunch.
Yeah, I agree. I think the main problem was I overthought this tournament to begin with (old list + old SB would have been fine, no?). Tolaria West was included in the mana base so I could cut it to 1 Crypt (just in case... which led to me running into one of the two people playing Dredge), and was fine, as it did its job when I needed EE. About the 'pates, I tried to play way more aggressively than my usual playstyle, hoping that I could apply enough pressure with Factory/DoJ early on, while removing their more important threats.
Obviously, from results, that didn't happen. One last note about the Perishes in the SB, my pre-tournament reads were way off to begin with, but the goal was to try and have an earlier sweeper to reset the board with Daze mana backup.
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
Follow me on Twitter: @AllSunsDawn
That brings up an interesting point that I've been wondering myself as well. If you have Tolaria West, do you still need 3 E.E. like most lists or can you cut it down to 2?
I think perhaps 3 is still likely the proper amount to use, because I find that I usually want it early and with 2 and Tolaria West, I may have to wait until at least turn 3 to get it.
I've been testing West again and was wondering if I should take out the 3rd E.E. or the 3rd Top to make room.
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