Yeah, I kind of suspect that both of y'all are correct on this issue. The main reason I would try to build it over something else is indeed budgetary constraints. It looks attractive in part because I already own a lot of the cards for it. That, and I've always kind of wanted to take it upon myself to play a pure control deck at a tournament.Originally Posted by Plague Sliver
I do wonder one thing though: Knowing nothing of this deck's history myself (beyond a really limited point), I just thought to ask if anyone has ever tried working in Counter/Top to this deck, since it's one thing that's relatively strong against both Zoo, Combo, (and to a much lesser extent) Merfolk. I know this deck's curve tends to run on the high end, and we don't usually play any fetch-lands (which make Top good)... But I was wondering if y'all think some bastardized version of MUC and Supreme Blue would work? (Basically using Counter/Top in a MUC shell, along with some fetch-lands and one basic land of each appropriate color (red and possibly also green) to support Firespout, Brainstorm, and possibly also Engineered Explosives and a couple sideboard cards (Krosan Grip or whatever...))
Am I just having pipe dreams here?
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
That's a really awesome find. It gives you great clock too. It's almost like you're getting a 4/4 shroud creature for 3 mana. Compare that to getting a 4/5 nonshroud tarmogoyf for two mana.
The card seems really useful actually. You never have to debate about whether it's worth it to FoW a second turn Wild Nacatl again.
If you play 4 of these and 4 Propaganda, you're guarenteed to be able to play one or the other on your third turn. And follow up with a Shackles or Sower on the next turn in order to steal the game against aggro.
The one thing is that it's probably and worthwhile and neccesary to play a few fetchlands to be able to swap Calcite Snapper's power and toughness during your opponent's turn.
This is the build of the deck that I think is pretty much flawless.
X23 Island
X1 Academy Ruins
X4 Force of Will
X4 Counterspell
X2 Spell Snare
X4 Ancestral Vision
X4 Fact or Fiction
X3 Powder Keg
X3 Back to Basics
X3 Calcite Snapper
X1 Call of the Skybreaker
X4 Propaganda
X4 Vedalken Shackles
Is there ANYTHING you would change about the above list? Should I play some fetchlands to be able to toggle Calcite Snapper's power and toughness during their turn? I love it because it makes the decision making versus aggro and aggro control decks very easy. No more agonizing over whether or not you should counter a certain threat.
Any threat with 4 or more power (or any threat that doubles as a disenchant effect), you counter. Anything with 3 power or less, you let through and take care of later using Calcite Snapper, Powder Keg, Propaganda or Veldalken Shackles.
Last edited by Clark Kant; 03-12-2010 at 09:43 PM.
Brainstorm and fetchlands instead of AV. Being able to block and switch shroud turtle's power to be able to kill a Woolly Thoctar or potentially kill a 3/4 Tarmogoyf or an exalted Wild Nacatl seems good to me. It also gives you more options during the attack phase to potentially throw your opponent off.
End of turn...Morphling
Team OMRIAIGTWYFEWARTCAE
I agree with Brainstorms and fetch-lands, in order to be able to pull shenanigans with Shroud Turtle.
Also, if you'd already be using fetch-lands, would it make sense to try to include 1 Mountain and 2-3 Firespout somewhere in your 75 cards? (Although I have no clue what you should cut for Firespout if you did want to use it in the maindeck...) Also, in a lightly splashed version, I think Engineered Explosives could be pretty sweet, since you have Academy recursion.
...Just some ideas.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Good tips. But honestly, I freaking love Ancestral Visions.
It generates absurd card advantage with very little mana investment. I could never see myself cutting it.
The thing about a deck like this is, there's pretty much never any cards that youre unhappy to be drawing. All the cards in the deck are worth having. So putting back two cards into the library is not something that I'm a fan of.
As for splashing for Firespout, that seems unneccesary.
Between...
X4 Propaganda
X3 Calcite Snapper
X1 Call of the Skybreaker
X3 Powder Keg
X4 Vedalken Shackles
The aggro matchup doesn't scare me at all.
And on top of that, Firespout is only really useful against Swarm Aggro decks and Ichorid. It can't take out Tarmogoyf. And it's just a one time solution. It's not a permanent that stays on the board. And playing basics for it weakens consistency (you may not be able to cast Counterspell on turn 2) and weakens Shackles. Meanwhile, playing nonbasics for it weakens Back to Basics.
The answers to aggro that I'm playing are a lot more versatile and more importantly, permanent. I honestly don't see what I would cut to make room for Firespout. And I really amn't convinced that EE is better than Powder Keg. It's faster, but it's more mana intensive and you can never hit anything with a cc above 2 with it either. Even hitting 2cc cards is rather inconsistent and hit or miss.
Last edited by Clark Kant; 03-12-2010 at 09:42 PM.
Calcite Snapper? Seriously? Maybe I am missing something, but this seems like a terrible card. In my opinion it stalls too little for the 3 mana investment, especially compared to Shackles. Anybody here willing to share his playtesting results?
Wanna bigger ? there is Plumeveil for UUU (or WWW or other combinaisons of those colors) 4/4 flash, flying and defender but not shroud :( anyway, when u cast it, it should already hit an attacking creature except if the opponent keeps a removal that can deal 4 or more or simply destroy or exil... i dunno if Snapper is better... as a defense. After all plumeveil can survive when it blocks a mangouse etc where Snapper cannot even with 2 fetchs (magic2010 rules) Really shroud matters but well just test it. And share of course.
MUC can't afford to counter every single 3/3 and 2/3 Zoo and what not lay down. It needs to save it's counters for Pridemage, Goyf and Thoctor if they play that card.
Propaganda only buys you a couple of turns. You can only play 4 Shackles max, so you won't see them every game. And even if you did, they won't come online till turn 4 at the earliest. You need something else to supplement them.
Shroud matters. And just as importantly the fact that it can attack for 4 damage matters.
It is extremely rare to get a low casting cost creature that is both an effective attacker and defender, and also is immune to removal (virtual card advantage). The closest you get to something like that is Morphling, but that takes five mana to cast, and even more mana to get any of those functions. Morphling comes too late to slow down a deck like Zoo. Caclite Snapper combined with Propaganda, (and you countering the only creature they play that has more than 4 power (Goyf)) gives you a solid chance against Zoo. You buy enough time that find and cast Shackles with enough islands for it to start raping your opponent's creature base. On the otherhand, Zoo has a dozen different ways to kill Plumiveil. If you wanted to compare it to something for the aggro matchup, Wall of Denial is a better comparison. But again, Wall of Denial requires a splash and also is a dead draw in the combo and for the most part in the control matchups because it has defender.
Calcite Snapper on the other hand works as a clock against combo and control decks. A clock that their removal can't take care off. And it works as a blocker against aggro decks to buy you a few turns until you build up enough Islands for Shackles to actually be useful.
Plumiveil can only defend. So it's a dead draw against control and combo decks. And it can be hit by removal, which every aggro deck in the format plays. So it's pretty dead in the aggro matchup too.
TLDR Version.
For a creature to make the cut in MUC...
it needs to be blue,
it needs to be a decent blocker,
it needs to have a low cc because aggro decks have really speeded up,
it really needs to have Shroud (because everyone and their mother is playing StP/Path and you want those cards to be dead draws against you).
Nothing else fits. That this guy can also work as a decent attacker in the combo and control matchups is the icing on the cake.
I think the most immediate things MUC needs to address are what to do vs. Merfolk (since they island-walk, don't get hurt much by B2B, and Vial through counters) and what to do vs. Qasali Pridemage.
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
Pridemage, you pretty much have to counter. If you are unable to stop Pridemage from hitting the board, and thus he's able to take out Propaganda, or worse yet Shackles or B2Bs, Calcite Snapper can buy you some time to find another Propaganda/Shackles/B2Bs.
There isn't too much you can do about Merfolk preboard. You can try to Keg away Vial, and counter (or Shackles) Lord of Atlantis. If you manage to do that, then Calcite Snapper, Propaganda, and Shackles all help you immensely in that matchup. If you fail, then you will likely lose, nothing maindeck will help you. Postboard, there is that blue creature that causes opponents to bounce all opponent's blue creatures back to their hand. That might help.
Your other poor matchups Zoo, Goblins, Bant, stuff like that, are also all matchups that are helped by cards like Calcite Snapper supplementing your anti-creature package.
Even against combo, Calcite Snapper gives you a faster clock.
Hm... Meekstone ? Creatures with power 3 or greater don't untap during their controllers' untap steps. This small artifact for one mana is cute :) but do you need it ?
I now have a small splash of red for Fire//Ice in the main deck which helps the Merfolk match slightly (still highly unfavorable), which also allows me REBs and Firespout out of the board to get to a winnable position. Hopefully, with all that, I can get there.
Against Qasali Pridemage, it is a must-counter but I also have Fire to shut it down if it lands early game. If I don't have a way to counter Pridemage or have Fire in hand, then I kept a very weak hand.
For the record, Llawan, Cephalid Empress may seem hilarious but Merfolk still has Aether Vial and can thus get around the not casting blue creatures clause. That is terribad.
End of turn...Morphling
Team OMRIAIGTWYFEWARTCAE
I remain unconvinced that Calcite Snapper adds to the deck, but I will playtest him as soon as I got the time. Personally I like to run 2 Chalice MD which help alot against Zoo, ANT and Treshhold. Personally I consider 3 Shackles, Chalice, 3 Keg and 4 Propaganda after boarding enough against Zoo, but it really depends on countering Pridemage. Grip is a pain in this matchup. Against Combo I'd rather board in Clique instead of Calcite Snapper, because I can play it at eot and disrupt their hand.
I know that it was already discussed posts ago, but i'm not convinced yet. Isn't Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir a soft lock good for combo and other blues??
I see him like a good card for mid/late game. You counter, he can't counter back. You play Shak, B2B, etc, he counter, you counter back, thats it.
Combo is likely dead, isn't? Someone tested it?
Thanks and see ya!
Teferi is a good card, but I don't think this is the right meta for him. Every deck plays removal these days, StP, Path, Snuff Out you name it.
You don't want to play any creatures that can be killed be this removal. Yes you can counter the removal, but why would you want to use up your countermagic on stopping removal when you could instead play threats that are immune to said removal, and make all those cards your opponents play dead draws. If you play creatures, you want them to either recur, or better yet you want them to have Shroud.
You want to make all the removal your opponents draw dead because it gives you virtual card advantage and also means your win conditions are resilient. This is the same reason I'm not a fan of Sower of Temptation in this deck.
Thats just my perspective anyways. But maybe I'm wrong. If you are willing to play threats that can be removed though. I would supplement Teferi with stuff like Sower of Temptation, Vendilion Clique and Spellstutter Sprite. I think that deck could do awesome, and Teferi gets better the more creatures you play.
So what do you guys think?
If the deck played....
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Sower of Temptation
1 Teferi
Funnily enough, Teferi seems to be the weakest card in that whole set.I could see myself cutting him completely. The others all basically counter one of your opponent's threats.
Can the deck still be called MUC, or is the creature count too high?
What do you think about this one:
Main:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Back to Basics
4 Calcite Snapper
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Decree of Justice
/38
Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Plains
14 Island
/22
Side:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Spell Pierce
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pithing Needle
/15
It is some kind of MUC/w with the new shroud turtle. He fits in the suit very well and I'm glad that he is a CC3 permanent, due to Engineered Explosives are most often good for 1 or 2. Back to Basics is the main reason for running this build. In my meta it is very strong. If I get paired against merfolks or goblins, B2B goes out for the Meddling Mages and also Needle comes in maybe for Fact or Fiction. Meddling Mage is primary against combo, but he is also a creature that staals the game in our favour.
Some comments?
I like a lot your deck, but put a pair of blue fetches instead of 2 islands: the brainstorms need at least 6 fetchlands IMO. I was thinking in a similar version of MUC ( with a little white splash) and was considering Sanctum Plowbeast as an additional way to find a plains. What do you think of this?
Also, I recommend you to play at least 2 more "finishers". Against decks without creatures, the shackles don't help in killing your opponent and the snappers are more a defensive creature than anything else... Ok, they have shroud, but if your opponent has a single creature, you cannot attack for 4 without losing it.
I think Sanctum Plowbeast isn't good enough. I would rather play Eternal Dragon, but he costs WW and this isn't palyable without Tundra's.
Shuffle effects for Brainstorm:
More fetchlands seem not to be necessary, because besides the 4 Flooded Strand I got 4 Impulse and 3 Fact or Fiction which filter the cards on the top of your library. Fetchlands also cause loss of life, okay thats not a good reason for not running them, but sometimes it can cost you I game. With this deck I won often on 2 or even 1 lifepoint.
More winoptions may be possible (Morphling?) but with Impulse and Fact or Fiction I'm able to find the Decree until turn 7 or 8.
Also against deck without creatures Shackles might be bad of course, but than Calcite Snapper is even better. Just drop 2 of them and search for some land or better a fetchland and they will beat your opponent down very quickly.
In my opinion, Sphinx of Jwar Isle has surpassed Morphling as a MUC finisher. If I was looking for win conditions, I'd probably run some combination of:
Sphinx of Jwar Isle
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Call the Skybreaker
Sower of Temptation
I really highly suggest playing Jace, the Mindsculptor. Card Advantage, Control and Winoption alltogether - awesome :) Try it out!
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