Compost seems like one of the best sideboard options for any deck running Green. Side out the Sylvans and bring this in.Originally Posted by stu55
It's Magic the freaking Gathering. It's not like I'm negotiating with some foreign country. I play what cards whenever i want. I'm allowed to joke with my opponents about River Boa. I also did well with River Boa, and if you read the thread, we discussed the card a while back. It's not bad.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
I spoke with the Hatfield about a blue splash as well. I built up a crummy little version on MWS and added RWM and brainstorm, with sylvan library. I think if wasteland was banned it would be near impossible to lose, that's not the world we live in though. A single land destruction spell cripples the consistency of the 4C Zoo build.
Everyone is basically talking about a more aggro zoo (usually including fireblast) and a more mid-game zoo (usually including KotR). I think we need to focus on which of these builds has the better matchups, then argue about a 4C blue zoo that rolls over and dies to any mana denial.
Treetop Village is a fairly recent additon, that really shines in the countertop/standstill matchups. Alix told me of a play at SCG Richmond where he had pridemage on the board and his opponent cast standstill. Next turn he dropped Treetop, and made 4/4 trees every turn until his opponent had to break their own standstill.
Ranger of Eos has my interest of late too. I keep thinking about a mid-late game top decked Ranger into a Nacatl and a Lavamancer. I guess he wouldn't be so hot in the opening 10 though, but that kind of explosiveness may be worth it.
I love Ranger of Eos. I play 2 copies of Ranger of Eos in my white weenie pet deck and it's amazing. It's probably the same with zoo too so I would start testing 2 copies first if I were you. I would suggest to put in at least 1 Figure of Destiny too (I already play 2 in my zoo build) if you go for Ranger of Eos.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
But White Weenie is an other deck. Ranger of Eos in Zoo is very klobig. I think it is the wrong way to play Zoo like a midrange rock deck. Zoo is only a good deck cause its fast and strong. When Zoo loose this properties its only a very bad rock build with bolt and helix which isnt better than vindicate, pulse, pridemage and StoP. I like the idea with treetop Village, it seems good. But I think you have to play it with 2 Knights because Knight is a good toolbox. I think the fast Zoo is at the moment better but the problem is, its very boring to play :D
Zoo<3
I for one are thinking about the Ranger of Eos in the Board, not every games can be ended within the first 4-5 turns. Like the mirror and some other decks with lots of spot removal.
Is it just me that tends to board out chain lightnings alot?
Sure, most of the time, ideas don't pan out, but I wanted to see the results before I throw the idea out. Looks like there's nothing yet.
More than anything, I just want to throw out the stupid Kird Apes, which I feel rarely do anything to affect the board. No offense to The User Currently Known as Kird Ape. I've been leaning more to a utility bear like Gaddock Teeg or Vexing Shusher in that spot, but it's not ideal, obviously.
Seems like Mother of Runes would be a great one-drop replacement. Slightly worse in the short term, but much much better in the long term than Kird Ape/Loam Lion.
Why would putting in Ranger of Eos turn the deck into a midrange rock deck? It could just as well turn it into a deck with an (even) better midgame. Knight of the Reliquary basically fulfills the same role already. You could opt to take out Sylvan library for instance. I'm not saying it would make the deck better but I wouldn't mind trying it out sometime. It sounds as a better idea than adding another color if you ask me. :-)
What do you consider fast zoo? A build with Steppe Lynxes?
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
Is there really a slow zoo? I think the 2 versions are KotR zoo and non-KotR zoo. If anything I think Knight makes Steppe Lynx that much better and it should definitely be considered in each build.
I don't believe that Kird Ape has a spot in the deck anymore. Steppe Lynx is so much better and as long as you have 2 fetches in the opening 9, which doesn't seem that improbable, you are swinging for the fence those opening turns, which forces them to either answer an 0/1 Lynx or gamble that you don't have a 3rd fetch to beat them over the head with. Think about how much damage the Ape really does through a game, a fetched Lynx does it in half the time.
I talked to Alix last night about the Ranger debate and he mentioned Bloodbraid Elf. G2: Bloodbraid Elf cascade into... Choke. Ok, I guess that seems good and you might even be able to set it up with an active Sylvan. The inclusion of a 4 drop is nerve racking to me because I don't even run a 3 drop save for SB stuff.
KotR has won me lots of games, he is pretty much always the largest creature in play. Spanding his power and thoughness from 5-10+. KotR is just bigger then the Thocter. I play 12 fetch, he is often 5/5 to 6/6 by turn 3 to 4.
Aggre with the Steppe Lynx, not many games where is he is bad where Kird Ape would do much better. Lynx puts on a way faster clock against combo decks, like ant. It got a better early game and a better mid- lategame when KotR and sylvan sees play.
Ranger of Eos gives 3 for 1. Dont think there should be any ranger silverbullets liks scutemobs and such. But i think its a good deal do play a 3/2 and get 2 nacatls/lynx/lavamancer to the hand. Ranger feels better then the Bloodelf for zoo.
But its not optimal. And I am sure any serious discussion about the deck would not include a 2/1 for 2 where its 2 abilites are as avg as possible in this format. Zoo is already made to beat blue decks so the islandwalk is about as irrelvant as possible. The regeneration is also average because this deck is built to attack and that is mostly a defensive ability.
The deck is good not because it does broken things. Not one of the spells in the deck are "broken", it is just uber-consistant. I feel like running this janky cards like the mystic, boa, FoD, thoctar, etc you are making the deck run more and more into the mid-game and it doesn't want to do that. Running < 4 chain lightning also seems wrong. Another thing you said in that "choosing fod cause you draw a lot of land" just seems really awkward. You can't pick a card based on how you are running luck wise. FoD takes a lot of mana to work. What are you going to do after playing it turn 1? Attack for 1 and play a goyf? Isn't just playing Kird Ape better because it will always hit for 2 on turn 2 for 1 mana where FoD needs 2 mana to hit for 2? You might say it is a good late game card, but if this deck goes to the late game you have probably lost. Reading your report, it seemed like you played against some pretty sub-optimal opponents and then come offer like the deck is insane or something.
I am just making some counter-points about your claims and having a discussion about it...you seem pretty insecure since you just jumped all over it as if it was attack on your dog or something...geez, some people.
Hi, I'm new in this Forum but not in playing Magic, and specially zoo. I'm an Italian player.
I'm looking for the best version, and here I would like to list my last results to check what build, also in your opinion, is better and why.
02/07/2010 - GPT Madrid - Milano - 1st place - 89 players
4 wild nacatl
4 kird ape
4 loam lion
4 tarmogoyf
4 qasali pridemage
1 jotun grunt
3 gaddock teeg
4 lightning bolt
3 lightning helix
4 path to exile
3 price of progress
2 sylvan library
4 wooded foothills
3 arid mesa
3 windswept heath
3 taiga
2 plateu
1 savannah
1 horizon canopy
1 forest
1 mountain
1 plains
SIDEBOARD
3 krosan grip
4 reb
2 jitte
1 vulcanic fallout
3 tormod's crypt
2 aven mindcensor
The tournament:
Merfolks: 2-1
Zoo: 2-0
WU-tang: 2-1
Pro-bant: 2-1
ANT: 2-0
I.D.
I.D.
ANT: 2-0
Dredge: 2-0
ANT: win by drop
Impressions were good, specially for gaddock MD, which made me win both the match against ANT, aided by Aven Mindcensor post side, not so much happy for PoP maindeck, but I loved the race with 12 cc1 drop. In many moments it's like an Intercity rail over the head.
I decided to play the same version at the GP Madrid, except for the mono Jotun Grunt MD taking at his place a mono Duergar Hedge Mage because of the possibility to be killed bay a lot of Counterbalance with Vedalken Schackles.
02/27-28/2010 - GP Madrid - Day 1 - 8-1 - 2225 players
4 wild nacatl
4 kird ape
4 loam lion
4 tarmogoyf
4 qasali pridemage
1 duergar hedge mage
3 gaddock teeg
4 lightning bolt
3 lightning helix
4 path to exile
3 price of progress
2 sylvan library
4 wooded foothills
3 arid mesa
3 windswept heath
3 taiga
2 plateu
1 savannah
1 horizon canopy
1 forest
1 mountain
1 plains
SIDEBOARD
2 krosan grip
1 duergar hedge mage
4 reb
2 jitte
1 vulcanic fallout
3 tormod's crypt
2 aven mindcensor
The Tournament:
Awarded Bye
Awarded Bye
Awarded Bye
Christoffer Backman - Baseruption: 2-0
Alberto Cortes - Zoo: 2-0
Rogier Kleij - Goblin Rb: 2-1
Marcio A. Carvalho - Zoo: 1-2
Bojan Zunko - Goblin Rb: 2-1
alfredo jimenez palmero - Zoo: 2-1
Day 2
Alessandro Scalia - Canadian *****: 1-2
Lubos Koudelka - Pro-Bant: 1-2
Héctor Cubas - Zoo: 0-2
Sergey Lamzin - Enchantress: 1-2
Drop
Analysing the situation, I didn't expect this result after the 8-1 of Day1.
Canadian won the 2 post-side game, in the first playing wasteland in t2, 2 tarmogoyf in t3 - t4 and 3 submerge in t3 - t4 - t5. Then he won the third game with 2 wastelands and 2 stifle on my fetchlands and I didn't draw lands in 6 turns.
Pro-bant won the first playing the mono jitte main deck on a rhox war monk and neutralizing my path to exile, and in the third one he plays like land - noble hierarch, land - rhox, land - kitchen finks, in my eot plays StoP on my Gaddock Teeg, in his main made Natural Order sacrifying kitchen finks, I played aven mindcensor and he played force of will. Perfect, I couldn't speak.
Zoo won both the game playing in 2 game 7 tarmogoyf, 4 Knights, 6 helix and I never draw a Tarmogoyf nor a Path to exile.
So the situation was like the deck is good but it suffers the mirror match because of the price of progress maindeck and the lack of knight of the reliquary and grim lavamancer. I decided to put in 2 grim lavamancer because the metagame is pushing aggro.
03/07/2010 - Legacy Tournament - 9° place - 38 players
I expected more aggro decks, so I decided to switch a PoP with a Naya Charm, And I wasn't wrong. I won 6 games tapping all my opponent creatures in mirror matches or against pro-bant with progenitus on the board or against canadian. I also decided to put in sideboard some extended stuff to help my inferiority in the mirror: ranger of eos. And it was pretty good.
4 wild nacatl
3 kird ape
3 loam lion
2 grim lavamancer
4 tarmogoyf
4 qasali pridemage
1 duergar hedge mage
3 gaddock teeg
4 lightning bolt
3 lightning helix
4 path to exile
2 price of progress
1 naya charm
2 sylvan library
4 wooded foothills
3 arid mesa
3 windswept heath
3 taiga
2 plateu
1 savannah
1 horizon canopy
1 forest
1 mountain
1 plains
SIDEBOARD
2 krosan grip
2 ranger of eos
4 reb
1 jitte
1 vulcanic fallout
3 tormod's crypt
2 aven mindcensor
The tournament:
Pro-Bant: 2-1
Zoo: 0-2 (mulligan 5 in every game and I played only 1 land in every of these)
Canadian ********: 2-1
Zoo: 2-0
Canadian ********: 2-1
Iona-retainer survival: 1-2 (I was paired down and I lost)
The deck is always good, I can't do nothing against mana screw or against other's people luck!!!
Preparing for the Florence's D-Day I decided to play the same deck, whispering to foretell the metagame.
03/13/2010 - D-Day Florence - 178 players
The maindeck is the same of the last one version but I decided to modify my sideboard with 1 more naya charm, and I loved to try Elspeth when siding out the Gaddocks.
SIDEBOARD
2 krosan grip
4 reb
2 ranger of eos
1 elspeth knight errant
1 vulcanic fallout
1 naya charm
2 tormod's crypt
2 aven mindcensor
The tournament
Bant: 2-0
Pro-Bant: 2-0
Faerie Stompy: 2-0
ANT: 1-2 (he makes disfigure on gaddock in the 2nd one and pact of negation on aven mindcensor in the 3rd)
Dredge: 2-0
ANT: 0-2 (he got hands painted from Giotto I think)
Drop
So, after these discussions, I don't think Steppe Lynx or Knight of the reliquary are the best slots to play to fill the discrepancy against some decks, I think is the moment to build it with slots that can be usefull in a lot of MU.
These are my questions:
Do you think that Sylvan Library requires 2 slots or 1 could be sufficient?
What about playing aven mindcensor MD?
What about switching out Price of progress even if they are a closer against a good 35% deck like bant-faeries-baseruption?
What about playing 2 naya charm MD?
I hope this discussion would be not so useless to all, specially for myself.
Bye.
Those who are saying Zoo is only good in the early game are incorrect. You have inevitability on a huge percent of the DTBs.
Also, FoD gives you as lot of attacks you otherwise can't make; For example, you can attack a 2/2 figure into your opponent's war monk and they will probably not block since they don't want to lose it. Situations like these can happen turn after turn, and it results in a lot of extra damage. I've played with Figure longer than probably most of the people in this thread, and I've never been disappointed by it. I got 3rd out of 83 at the vestal duel for duals with 3 figures in my deck, and they were awesome all day. So obviously figure is a viable choice.
This is kind of awkward. What is keeping them from swinging back with the War Monk, thus negating the 2 damange you just dealt? You need to expand a bit more on this statement to have it make sense...
In the list I ran, the 2 cards I would consider changing are the knights...maybe FoD fits there, maybe Aven Mindcensor. I just don't like having to sink the mana into FoD to make it amazing...
Have you actually played the deck yourself? I can't count the times I went into midgame with enough lands on the board. That's why you want some cards that can have an impact in midgame as well. KotR does this and so does FoD. That is not to say it always happens, that's why I wouldn't even try testing Ranger of Eos myself, but if you happen to have a 'surplus' of lands then FoD is a very strong card. The amazing thing about FoD is that it's a card that has an impact in any phase of the game and is of use early, mid and late game. If you do reach late game and you do draw a a Fod then it's lethal the next turn.
Maybe you run Steppe Lynx (I don't) which might explain why you're so 'scared' of getting into midgame. I've noticed more people in this thread feel the same way about it as you. I don't know why but there must be a reason to it. Maybe it's because of different metagames? I'm in a aggro/aggro control metagame myself. Anyway my experience with the deck equals that of Baileyarch.
To adress your point. You can play FoD turn 1 and on turn 2 a Kird Ape or whatever. Then attack and pump the FoD. Then on turn 3 you have a potential 4/4 which is a must answer for your opponent. I only run 2 FoD and wouldn't play more myself so it doesn't happen that often but when it does it's absolutely no problem.
If they block they lose their Monk. If they don't then you dont pump FoD and play another creature or two. They can't attack you back because you hit them back even harder next turn.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
This is, essentially, the point. They often can't afford to swing back with the monk because you have enough other pressure to force it to stay on defense. Zoo is very good in a game of attrition due to its ability to play a multitude of goyf-size or larger creatures. When you play 4 goyfs, 2 knights, and 2 FoDs you essentially have 8 must answer threats while your threshold opponent still only has 4 goyfs that fit in that category.
Progenitus has changed this math slightly, but provided you can answer him, you still have inevitability.
I play Steppe Lynx. I find it be better then Kird Ape in pretty much every state of the game, early-mid-lategame. Sylvan Library and Knight of the Reliquary have kept him very consistence durring all the parts of the game.
I am playing 0 Fireblasts and 1 Sylvan Library.
Just recently, I switched to 2 KoR and 1 FoD main.
List:
4 goyf
4 kird ape
4 lavamancer
4 qasali pridemage
4 wild nacatl
2 kor
1 fod
2 gaddock teeg
4 bolt
3 pte
3 helix
3 chain lightning
1 sylvan library
11 fetchlands
1 horizon canopy
3 taiga
2 plateau
1 savannah
1 forest
1 plains
1 mountain
SB:
2 jitte
3 mindbreak trap
2 gaddock teeg
2 krosan grip
1 relic of progenitus
1 tormod's crypt
2 faerie macabre
2 wing shards
the hard matchups are obviously ad nauseam and the quad teeg and 3 mindbreak in the 75 makes it winnable.
i would like to comment that i have not tested steppe lynx but if i imagine in the mirror its not great and i would rather have kird ape.
lynx is obviously superior in games where you're winning or have an unanswered KoR, but at that point even a kird ape would be winning.
lynx doesn't block - obv which is a liability in the mirror.
wing shards are there for reanimator/natural order decks.
macabre is also there for reanimator since they run force of will for the crypt/relic. randomly good vs other things like survival/43lands.
fod is fine turn 1 even if you don't get to pump him for 4 turns because you're curving out.
he still is a threat, that if unanswered will go the distance.
i may consider going down to 3 kird apes for another figure. there is only 1 land in the deck that cannot play/pump it - basic forest.
My 12 Post Videos - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...Q65OWRL5my7utn
Did you even read the post I made right above yours? It clearly states I ran a list of Zoo and even 2-3 posts ago I said I ran Richard Bland's list from the GP, so go ahead I will take a minute to let you look it up so you can tell me i am running steppe lynx and scared of 'mid' game (which I actually said was "lategame" there chief)....good?....congrats on reading...
I will agree that Eos seems clunky and slow. Other than goyf, what guys are going to play that are going to scare the war Monk? Knight never really did anything for me. I think you need lands that do things to play him, other wise he is just a giant idiot on the board. FoD might be better, don't know, didnt test him, but I think those 2 spots in my list clearly need to be something with more umpf...
Between Madrid, Indy, St.Louis, and Dallas, there were 8 Zoo decks in the top 16s.There were a total 5 FoD played, so that should say something about the card if good players are not even using it...
There are currently 3 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 3 guests)
Reply With Quote