[Deck] Spring Tide

[TheRock]

Sounds like the maindeck is in place then.

Jaynel's sideboard would look pretty good to me but I do have some more insight that I hope will prove helpful.

The thing with Blue Elemental Blast is that you beat Goyf Sligh and Goblins unless they really have a sideboard that will impede your progress. As long as the card you're siding in gets rid of Pillar or Chalice (which players could still run quite a number of if your metagame contains Aluren or other combo decks), it pretty much doesn't matter what it is. I like having one BEB in my sideboard just to Scroll for it or have a cheap 5th out, but the last time I ran 2 BEBs was when Goblins was the deck to beat. Spell Snare always countered either card for me and Echoing Truth/Wipe Away still gets rid of them anyway.

After testing against ANT and TES a bit, I've found Disrupt and Divert to be the keys to winning (although neither matchup is very fun for this deck). Divert on Chant is just awesome and Disrupt can still buy you time if you counter set-up cards. Since I use Merchant Scroll a LOT on turn two (or Ponder/Disrupt #2), I'm usually screwed if I can't win turn three against them. Remand will help fight that cause enough that you may not need to Scroll for a Force as much as I do.

[ravingxfantasy]

Agreed, BeB/Hydroblast just help to win matches more against red based aggro decks, wich are most times a good matchup anyway.
I dont expect a lot of combo but maybe a fourth disrupt would be in place in case off, its a versatile card and it also improves some other matchups.
Tonight im gonna do some testing online, im still thinking of adding a third remand to the maindeck instaid of a cantrip but im not completely sold yet, some testing hopefully gives a bit more insight.

[ScatmanX]

I have dissembled my Spring Tide in a while now, and I wat to ask you guys that still run it one thing: Why would you rather play this over something like TES or TEES? (aside from being cheaper)

[TheRock]

I have dissembled my Spring Tide in a while now, and I wat to ask you guys that still run it one thing: Why would you rather play this over something like TES or TEES? (aside from being cheaper)

While a full powered version of Spring Tide isn't all that cheap, it can also be an issue of what staples the player currently has or is going to get. Blue fetchlands and Forces are mandatory cards to have in Vintage and Legacy, and the rest of the deck really doesn't cost all that much.

I don't know TES and ANT enough to give you "perfect" answers and I REALLY DISLIKE throwing statements about matchups around, but I tend to beat Landstill quite a lot. The only times I've ever lost to Landstill is when I just draw pure garbage and I lose to their beats because I can't go through their counters, they're running Extirpate, or they're running Counterbalance and they have a three-mana cost card on the top. I don't think that TES and ANT are as good against that matchup.

However, I think that TES and ANT have better matchups against Threshold and Team America.

I will definitely concede that TES is a better deck in American metagames (and there is a lot of very useful and valuable information in the discussions here), but I simply have too much experience with this deck to ever think about running TES over Spring Tide in a tournament. Without knowing the metagame though, it's really all speculation.

[ravingxfantasy]

Agreed, I'm currently playing spring tide because of budget issues and even if I had the money I would still roll Spring Tide because I have a lot of experience with the deck.
I still havent decided on the 2 wish/2 remand or 1 wish/3 remand, wish is obviously a more versatile card but remand does offer some stability for the first turns, it allowed me to take more time in the aggro matchups wich made going off a lot more stable, also in the combo matches remand proved to be a little time walk in some situations.

My currents sidboard is:

4 Disrupt
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
2 Wipe Away
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Rebuild
2 Twincast
1 Echoing Truth
1 Open slot (could be a Hydro/Beb or maybe a third wipe?)

[talon7331]

So, Spring Tide is my legacy deck, and its a very good deck, but to my great disapointment I havn't seen a lot of my ideas on this thread. I have a lot of good ideas for this deck, and some seem not as good, while some seem a lot better. I will challenge a lot of the previous assertions made here, and hopefully everybody will write back and argue with me so we can get some more development. I will address most of the major issues that I have seen with what other people wrote, but I will start with the goal of the deck.


Goal: Win by Turn 3 (Alternate Goal: Win by turn Four)

With this goal in mind. Any deck that needs an un-tutorable card to win can be written off. Any deck that wants to drop a card with cc more than 3 or 4 (in my deck 3) can be taken out.

So: If we want to win by turn three, Are we worried about aggro? No, aggro cannot win by turn three. Our biggest fear is a combo that goes off before ours does, (iggy pop/ TES). Our other bad matchup is stax and the like, but not AS bad as turn 1 combos.


Now I will begin to discuss deck construction:

Cantrips: 12? No way. Anybody running 12 cantrips is begging to not go off by turn three. (it makes for an EXTREMELY consistent turn 4) but I want to win turn three before control can lock down the board, or aggro can kill me.

Cantrips: 7
Brainstorm 3x
Serum Visions 4x

Yes, I do believe serum visions is better than ponder because it allows you to keep only one of the cards as opposed to having to either keep/throw all three. It also has AMAZING synergy with Mystical Tutor.

Tutors: These are a must for a deck that needs high-tide to win. Period. 4 Merchant Scroll is not enough to gaurentee to draw one every game you don't have a tide or a draw spell, so I add two more.

Tutors: 2 + 6
Merchant Scroll: 4x
Mystical Tutor: 2x
Cunning Wish 2x --Not a tutor, but it fits in here

Some will say that Mystical Tutor is card disadvantage. They are correct, however, when you can't go off without hightide... its a pretty easy play.


Protection: This is another place where I expect people to call me crazy, but the deck works, so at least think about what I'm listing. We have to think back to what really beats this deck (iggy pop, tes, stax)What would be nicer to shut down early combo than chant? Nothing I can think of

MD Protection 5
3x Force of Will
2x Orim's Chant

Force is simply too much card disadvantage to run 4x and chant is better for shutting down combos than trying to simply stop one card from resolving (although countering IGG is clutch, often they will play a chant of their own to stop you from interrupting their combo.)



UNTAP EFFECTS:
I don't understand a lot of what people are thinking in this department. Some people say cloud/snap isn't good... well, i have news for you, they are. here is another news flash: when you only have 3 lands in play turnabout is not good until you've played two high tides at least. I have a better idea for you: Frantic Search. When going off turn three (which is the goal) it unaps all your lands, AND it lets you loot 2. I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I ALWAYS end up with lands in my hand. And yes, playing brainstorm and then tutoring or activating a fetch is a good way to ditch two lands. But how about draw 2 cards, untap three lands for 2U. That is what frantic search is (granted as a first untap you may only hit one/zero lands in your hand, but that is rare).

Untap: 11
4x Cloud of Faeries
3x Snap
4x Frantic Search


Draw:
This is the easiest part of the deck. There should be very little contention here, so I will simply say that I leave meditate in board to wish for (to make with wish not such a useless card early on).

Draw: 7 (4)
3x Meditate
4x Ideas Unbound
(4x Frantic Search ) It fits in here too.


OTHER:

Brainfreeze x1
High Tide x4


Strand x4
Delta x2
Hallowed Fountain x3
Island x7

I love this list, and it works well. Feedback wanted/appreciated

[Van Phanel]

Frantic Search is banned.

Fail.

[Lukas Preuss]

Is this a joke? Well, first of all, welcome to the source, we appreciate input from new members, but seriously:

1. Frantic Search is banned. If it wasn't banned, we would already run it in every deck packing High Tide.
2. Serum Visions better than Ponder and Brainstorm? Because of its AMAZING synergy with Mystical Tutor? I don't get it.

Well, you list looks funny and interesting and I bet it's a hell lot of fun, but I don't feel there's any real advantages over the established decklists. Incidentally, I have been doing quite some testing with an entirely new take on Spring Tide lately (no, not Permanent Waves) and it looks quite promising. I will get back to you after more testing and with results.

[MasterC]

EDIT: too slow

[gamegeek2]

Candelabra of Tawnos, anyone? Saw it used to good effect in a recent tournament I played in.

[bowvamp]

That's permanent waves gamegeek. Welcome to the source (sorta).

[ddt15]

Thread necromancy! Here is my list:

4 High Tide
4 Cloud Of Faeries
4 Snap
3 Turnabout

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Ideas Unbound
3 Meditate

4 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning Wish

4 Force Of Will
4 Remand (really shines in this deck).

16 Island

-sb-
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Stroke Of Genius
1 Pact of Negation
2 Echoing Truth
2 Fact Or Fiction
2 Trickbind
1 Twincast
1 Wipe Away
2 ?

I'm really fond of Remand in this deck; usually it acts as a Time Walk on turn 2, or you can use it to 'bounce' your High Tide if it meets countermagic, allowing you to go for the combo again the next turn. Occasionally it can also copy Brain Freeze.

Incidentally; would unbanning Frantic Search and maybe even Time Spiral have any impact on Legacy at all? The only deck that can use them effectively is Tide, and I don't think it changes anything to the decks bad matchups.

[Silent Requiem]

I agree that Remand is an valuable additon to the deck. While Spring Tide is clearly distinct from Solidarity, there are enough similarities that comparisons can be made, and at least 3 Remand are played in most Solidarity builds. I have recently gone up to 4 copies myself.

What I would say, is that with no maindeck Brain Freeze (twitch! twitch!) running only two Cunning Wish seems a little silly.

What is the counterbalance matchup like for this deck? it's the only matchup I really hate with Solidarity.

-Silent Requiem

[ddt15]

I would like to maindeck a brain freeze except i'm already short of space. Maybe i will cut a scroll for a maindeck freeze. Counterbalance is a bad matchup but not unwinnable. Especially if you are on the play you can force/remand their turn 2 counterbalance and go off the turn after. If they get top and counterbalance in play it becomes quite tough although you can still try to win through it if they are short on mana to activate Top multiple times. I still have room in the sideboard though maybe some extra Wipe Aways? The worst matchups are no doubt Thresh and Fish as they play alot more counterspells than you and have a fast clock. Its good matchups are all aggro decks, you can even use their creatures to start the combo (for example with only Snaps in hand to generate mana). Dredge/Reanimator decks can be tough; if they get Iona in play you can probably scoop.

[MGC_player]

I've finally got my hands on 4 Forces, so I am quite happy since I can finally run a more optimized version of my pet deck.

4 High Tide
4 Cloud Of Faeries
3 Snap
3 Turnabout

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Ideas Unbound
3 Meditate

4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish

4 Force Of Will
3 Remand
1 Brain Freeze

6 U fetches
10 Island

-sb-
3 Disrupt
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Snap
1 Stroke Of Genius
1 Capsize
1 Echoing Truth
2 Trickbind
1 Remand
1 Wipe Away
1 Mindbreak Trap - flex slot, may become something else like Cryptic Command or Twincast

Any other thoughts on this before I start running it in an unknown meta?

[ScatmanX]

My MD is exactly like yours.
Regarding sb, you don't need Trickbind. Nobody runs Gaeas Blessing anymore, and you can fight other cards. And I think the 4th Remand cold be a Twincast on the board.

I think there isn't much to discuss for this deck, until they print new cards.
(yeah, like Preordain...)

[Vacrix]

On the contrary, I think its worth discussing MD Mindbreak Trap. I think its worth running 1. Especially when you have 4 Merchant Scroll, you can set up against control with it.

[ScatmanX]

On the contrary, I think its worth discussing MD Mindbreak Trap. I think its worth running 1. Especially when you have 4 Merchant Scroll, you can set up against control with it.

This deck cant ignore the first 2 counterspells the opponent plays like Solidarity can. Here, if they counter High Tide, you just can't combo off. So, fo MB Trap be good, you have to have: 2 High Tides and another counter, or 1 High Tide and 2 Counters.
I actually think Pact of Negation is better here than Trap...

[Vacrix]

Unless you just take more time to set up and hit your land drops. I guess its much harder to hit the land drops here than in Solidarity. Is it worth running an MD Pact then? And in place of what?

[ScatmanX]

I do not know if it is worth to MD Pacts. That depends a lot, but if I were, would be in place of Remand. Spring Tide usually don't have the amount of spare mana to make a good use of Remand. And we want to go off Turn 3, so turn 2 you should have Merchant Scroll or more 1cc cantrpis, searching for more lands (once it only run 16...).
Taking more time to set up haven't the advantages it has in Solidarity, because we don't have Resets to make it worth. On the contrary, going off fast, with 1, maaaaaaaybe 2 protection spells, is the best way to play this decks against blue based decks.
BTW, Preordain is f*** good in this deck. Try it (also, don't know on what spot...)