[Deck] GW Survival

[Rigero]

Hi,

I played at the same event too ^^. Only 4-3 for me : / but was very nice to see so many other players playing GW-Survival.

My list was:

Mainboard:
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Forest
3 Wooded Foothills

1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Loyal Retainers
4 Mother of Runes
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
1 Spore Frog
1 Genesis
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sword of light and shadow
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist

Well, now i would play an other sideboard ;)

Round 1: New Horizon 2-0
Round 2: Reanimator 2-1
Round 3: Canadian Thresh 2-0
Round 4: Ur Dreadstill 0-2
Round 5: GW-Survival 0-2 against Spirit of the Wretch
Round 6: Bant-Survival 1-2 in the turns, with a lot of luck, against the guy who beats Venice in the last round.
Round 7: ANT 2-1

well it was a nice tournament, at least there could have been more players, but it was nice to talk to venice and all the other guys.

Next time i ll also play Genesis / Spore frog and maybe karakas main. And in the Sideboard i ll play Bojuka Bog and even more Faerie macabre because of the many reanimator decks atm.

[spirit of the wretch]

As I promised: Report

[Galroth]

I'm ready for this deck to start dominating the scene.

Post Mystical Tutor I see this as a great meta choice. First, it seems almost universally agreed that Zoo is going to be present in larger numbers, and this deck feeds on Zoo. Second, with everyone's favorite tutor gone, Reanimator will see less play, and consequently less hate will show up against Iona. Again, another gain for UG as Loyal Retainers is still as effective as they day it was conceived.

Thoughts?

[conboy31]

What have your results been like vs zoo? I actually think that people are starting to overrate how good it is vs. a zoo list like matt elias or other top SCG lists.

[Tao]

The matchup vs. Zoo is positive for GW, probably somewhere between 55-45 and 60-40, because they run out of gas faster. Lavamancer is their biggest threat, and you have a StoP for each of them. Now to something completely different:



HOW by all means did no Survival deck catch on to this insanity? I didnt have much time to test, but after a short tip (hope I spoil no tech) I tried it with 3 and immediately went up to 4. Seriously, coming here and finding no Vengevine-Survival thread makes me kinda sad ;) However, here is my current GW list, and I am convinced it is a huge improvement:


// Lands
4 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [A] Savannah
4 [RAV] Forest
1 [OD] Plains
4 [JGC] Windswept Heath
2 [JGC] Wooded Foothills
3 [MPR] Wasteland
1 [LG] Karakas

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
2 [ON] Weathered Wayfarer
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [FNM] Kitchen Finks
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [ROE] Vengevine
1 [FNM] Basking Rootwalla

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [DDD] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [FNM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

(also trying with - 1 Forest, SB: - 1 Elspeth; + 1 Tropical Island, SB: + 1 Clone to combat Iona, Progenitus and Reanimator, Trop may suck against Merfolk though).


I toyed around with a black or blue splash, but I think this version gives better overall odds to win games, the consistency and pressure the two-colored version offers in my tests outweighed the benfits of discard or soft counters.. Explanations to the list and the deck:

Vengevine (without Survival): It is still a solid creature on its own. I gets around CB in 2 ways, wins attrition wars and has good stats. Haste is one of the strongest abilities and can catch opponents off guard.

Vengevine with Survival: Basking Rootwalla is very important for two reasons. The first is that it lets you play 2 creature spells a turn even if you have only one creature in hand. The second is that it allows you to save 1 Mana, which often means +1 Vengevine. The optimal sequence needs 3 green lands, Hierarch, Survival and VV and looks like this: T1 Hierarch, T2 Survival, dump VV get VV, untap, dump VV, dump VV, play Rootwalla, play MoR, bash for 12. Of course games usually dont go like this, but note that it might happen that you abandon a 4/3 to save a single green Mana (which is a good thing that shows the speed of the deck). But of course usually you want to take full advantage and get 16 power.

No Squee, no Genesis, no Maze, no Iona/Retainers: By now I am convinced that none of this is needed. I tested about 15 games with Maze and Spore Frog and not once wanted them. After that I once lost a game against a Dark Depths Token, when I got my KotR one turn too late and Maze would have saved me but overall this is a beatdown deck and dead draws hurt a lot, so I think it is best to stick to the beatdown plan. If you get Survival, just dump as many Vengevines as you can into the yard and get them into play. To Iona/Retainers: 16 Haste power is better than Iona and also VV are not dead draws. They clearly outclass the Iona /Retainers combo.

Jitte: Feels not needed in this build and this Meta.

2 Weathered Wayfarer: Another new one. I always felt this deck needed just a bit more 1-drops, because a hand with Hierarch / Mom is so much stronger than a hand without them. The deck almost guarantees a good play on turn 2, 3 and 4 and with going up to 10 1-drops it gets much more likely to always have that one drop. And Wayfarer is a great one drop btw, should have tried it earlier. Especially on the draw it forces the opponent to deal with it somehow. For those not familiar with it, it is a quite skillful creature to use (or not use): one common way to use it is in Response to Wasteland, Fetchland or KotR activations.

[Waikiki]

I like your inclusion of vengevine. I didn't add it in my bant survival deck since I cannot support it but in this deck It seems at its place.

What are the elspeths boarded in for?

ALso quirion ranger seems pretty strong as 1 drop together with mother knight and noble.

[Tao]

Elspeth is a great card, sending a Goyf, KotR or VV flying with 1 or 2 Exalted is always a big swing and Elspeth is flexible enough to be either finisher or new threat.
But the main reason that Elspeths are in the SB is because she is unaffected by all SB cards that come in against GW and she beats multiple strategies that are annyoing to play against: mass removal and graveyard hate. Moat, Humility, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Relic of Progenitus, Tormods Crypt and Krosan Grip all do nothing against Elspeth. Also it breaks ground stalls and wins attrition wars without relying on the yard. It shines in matchups like Rock, every Survival variant, Landstill or Staxx.

Quirion Ranger I don't like because it does nothing on its own. MoR, Hierarch and WW usually either eat Removal on T1 or get active on T2, QR cant do that.

[Philipp2293]

I already mentioned Vengevine on the previous page, but nobody responded ;). Deck looks great so far, as combo is weakened I might pick it up again, only the price for Vengevine makes me sad.

@SB: I think it needs more Gaddock Teeg.

Edit: Wait, you also cut Squee?

[Tao]

double post deleted

[Tao]

Ah, didnt see it, but good call. You should have tested with a couple of them right away ;)

I always try to stay unbiased with matchups and card evaluations and try to not exaggerate anything with and from a neutral point I can say that Vv is insanely strong and puts the deck on a new level. Not only are Vvs unlike Iona, Squee and Retainers a good card when you draw them, they are also much better with Survival. After Survival resolves you usually pay 5 to get Iona into play. For the same Mana you get 3 Vengevines (if you start with one in hand),a Basking Rootwalla and a Mother of Runes/ Noble Hierarch. For 6 Mana you already get 20 power, and 16 of them are hasty. After that the game is usually just over, so there is no need for Squee. Just go ahead and test it, I am sure you will find out the same thing. It is so fast that chaining a Squee in between would just result in one less Vengevine. I am extremely satisfied with the list above. It is a beatdown deck and Survival is a broken Enchantment that reads "pay 4-7 Mana: put Basking Rootwalla, Mother of Runes and 2-4 4/3 creatures with haste into play, they come back next turn if they die."

[cseraph]

Vengevine seems like an interesting tool, but it is worth noting that 3 vengevines on board are not clearly better than iona. Iona is stronger against most forms of combo, as well as an aggressive deck that can flood the board such as goblins.

[Tao]

Iona and Retainers are 2 dead cards when drawn, they are easier to play around and also you usually get 4 Vvs unless you choose to get only 3. You also get not only the 3-4 Vvs but also a Rootwalla and a creature of your choice (depending on Mana MoR, Goyf or KotR). All I can say is that I've tested it and that it is not even close between Iona and Vvs.
The addition of it should put the deck to a new level, especially with Mystical Tutor to be gone soon. It has no more dead cards, highest card quality, a great curve and an outstanding unfair gamebreaker in form of SotF.

[Waikiki]

Ive been playing your list and really liking it thusfar. Maybe you could give some sideboard tips vs the commonly played matchups?

[Tao]

Sure. But these are of course no fixed numbers since there exist many different versions of most decks (just look at all those thousand Bant decks). So 8 of 10 times you have to improvize and in many of these matches Elspeth and Grip will shine ;)

Zoo: + 1 Finks, + 3 PtE; - 2 Wayfarer, - 2 Qasali Pridemage

Merfolk: + 1 Finks, + 3 PtE; - 2 Wayfarer, - 1 Vv, - 1 Wasteland

New Horizons: + 3 PtE, + 2 Crypt, - 3 Pridemage, - 2 Kitchen Finks (side in Clone if you play version with Tropical)

Reanimator: + 4 Yardhate, - 2 Finks, - 2 Wayfarer (also side in Clone)

Countertop: + 3 Krosan Grip, + 3 Elspeth, - 2 Finks, - 1 Vv, - 1 Rootwalla, - 2 Wayfarer (on play), - 1 Karakas, 1 Elspeth (on Draw) (also side in Clone vs. Prog. version)

ANT: + Teeg and Yardhate, - Wayfarer and Swords

[Squirrely]

I just spent some time to try and recover my old username and password. I've lurked here a bit off and on for the last year(s) or so, since I don't play that much competitive Magic at the moment/any more. I was thinking the other day about picking legacy up again, so I started looking at some more threads and testing some on *cough*MWS*cough*. And since this deck actually had a lot of cards I actually own and like (Goyf, Survival, Knight of the Reliquary) I decided to give this a spin. I must say, this deck is quite awesome :). It's surprisingly resilient and pulled some unexpected (by me) wins out of its ass. I like it and will probably test it some more. Maybe even try and get some Vengevines. Who knows.

[f|i[p]]

Was wondering, although I play a different version of the deck, using vials and splashing a hint of black for bone shredder and the likes, it is basically the same.

I seem to be having problems against bant survival.. They basically get survival much faster and from there on, wonders cripple me fast..How is your match up with bant survival with the old build?

how is your match up against bant survival in your new vengevine build?


I also noticed that only 1 basking rootwalla is not enough.. maybe 2 ..to make sure you can reuse vengevine if your first attempts flop

[Tao]

The matchup against Bant Survival is tricky because they have better odds of getting Survival online than we. There are 4 cases:


- Both get Survival: GW has much better chances to outrace Bant with Vengevines than by battling for Iona control and allowing them to play their tricks with Wonder or Spellstutter Sprites. I found during my games, not only against Bant Survival, that often aggression is the most appropiate strategy and when I am not sure which play is better I try to choose the more aggressive play. But on the other hand, should Bant stabilize, the Squee/Iona version has the better lategame. The more stuff you pack exclusively for Survival, the better Survival of course gets. Overall I'd say it is usually about who has more Mana and is ahead on the board and who gets Survival online first and not so much about the version of GW.

- No one gets Survival: GW usually is in a better spot because Mother of Runes and Knight of the Reliquary dominate the board. In this case of course Vevi build is superior because a 4/3 haster is better than a 1/1 for 3, a 9 Mana Angel or a completely uncastable Goblin.

- We get Survival, they don't: Easy win for both versions, but of course that happens rarely.

- They get Survival, we don't: Unfortunately a common scenario and sometimes you just can't do anything when they win the die roll and go Hierarch, Survival, Daze. But usually they dont have the nuts draw. In these cases play very aggressive and use the advantages that GW has over Bant. It is 10 permanent 1-Drops to 4 permanent 1-Drops, you have superior creature size, plus they spend their time Pondering and Brainstorming and lose landdrops to Daze, while you go ahead on the board with aggressive and disruptive creatures. Attack their land base and StoP Hierarchs if you see a chance because their mana base is vulnerable. Also, sniping SotF with Qasali can buy you precious time. Again Vv version is superior because 4 Mana 4/3 haste > dead draw.

________

1 Rootwalla is enough, the decks creature count is high enough to usually reuse them in time should that be needed. Even if it happened to you once that you wished for a second Rootwalla: Don't try to prepare for every situation, it will weaken the deck overall and your deck might end up unfocused and completely Survival dependant like this for example:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=32782

[Philipp2293]

I'm close to switching the 2 Finks MD with 2 Elspeths from the SB. Elspeth stalls in a similar way to Finks, but it's more dangerous in the offense if you don't get a survival, as there should always be critters to sent over flying. Is the lifegain needed that bad? (But then again, in my meta there is not much zoo.)

[Waikiki]

I found vengevine a bit on the overkill at 4 and cut it down to 3 to add a maindeck teeg. Thoughts?

[Philipp2293]

Is MD Teeg really needed after the banning of MT? As a one-off he seems too random, and if you get survival online you could search him or start chaining VVs, which I feel is better in almost all situations.