Why wouldn't you run a card that spells "Deal with me now, or I'll hit you where it REALLY hurts. And probably repeatedly at that!" and fits the general theme of your deck really well as a four-of? I never understood those who'd trim D&T by its most outstanding cornerstones like Karakas and Mangara of Corondor - there are matches you'll win without either, but there are others you win BECAUSE of one or the other. Or both.
Because Mangara sometimes (when you don't have Karakas online) can be worse than an Oblivion Ring (which is the WORSE card of the deck by far)? Because 2 of this in the opining hand is an auto mull?Originally Posted by colo
I think that you rely to much on Mangara + Karakas. Those cards are nice, but they aren't the only way to win games, and against a lot of decks the combo is worthless because it is too slow/fragile.
Last edited by Lorgalis; 10-08-2010 at 06:26 PM.
If you consider a starting hand with two copies of Mangara an "auto-mull", I can definitely assure you: you are playing the card and probably the whole deck very, very wrong.
Care to explain why?
Huh? I can't think of one time when I had an opening hand including two Mangaras and thought "This is good, I keep".
Mangara is wildcard removal. It's a card that answers a great many threats, and relying on Karakas - or even more so, a single activation of it - to save it and abuse it more than once is rather short-sighted. If your opponent knows how to beat D&T, he'll hate on the Mangara and Karakas E
engine any way he can, which means that - unless you're sealing the deal with it and winning anyway - you're going to lose Mangara, which is the stronger part of the combo, rather sooner than later. Having a spare copy isn't bad (except for when Humility is on the battlefield), since that card always trades at least 1-for-1, and _must_ be answered by your opponent asap.
It really depends on the matchup in my opinion. Mangara is too slow to rely on for several matchups. As for hating on Mangara. It depends on how they hate on her. If it's targetted, you have Mothers and Flickerwisps+Vials to deal with that. If it's Humility/E.Plague, multiples won't help. It's an easily hated on combo, I don't think it's worth relying on too much. It adds to the deck, but I don't believe it's worth building around just that.
Well yes, of course. Every card can be dead in certain matchups, all cards are situational. Mangara just single-handedly shuts off a ton of cards other decks and even archetypes have serious problems with - it makes Emrakul shudder, takes out the Planeswalker trash, eats Moats and Ensnaring Bridges, and occasionally chump-blocks one attacker to snipe out a second one, all while beaming up to its owner's hand just a moment before. It's not exactly news that it doesn't do much against, e. g., Storm Combo, but neither does the deck as a whole. Mangara is made of serious win, and I cannot help but frown every time if some newfangled D&T-player disesteems it because it's "easily hated on". Being a creature, and therefore easily removed, is not a liability in D&T, mostly because of the quartet of Aether Vials I hope you are running. If you fin it to be sub-par in a certain matchup, board it out. It's that easy.
what do you guys think of putting a singleton of ghostly prison in the sb? considering combo is going a bit down, and the freaking vengevival deck is everywhere, i think it would do some good right? and the tax effect is even better now with leonin arbiters hitting fetches...it's really nice against zoo too...any thoughts?
I don't believe in having the toolbox with arbiter. But if you do have it, it could work. It might also help against Goblins.
hmm so Penguinizer, what's your sb? i think it still works though...more often than not, the arbiter is always killed or countered at sight in my experience...
My current SB consists of:
4x Tormod's Crypt (might drop this down to 3 though.)
3x Ethersworn Canonist (Combo)
3x Wing Shards (Oh so many decks. It's great.)
3x Kitchen Finks (Helps stabilize against zoo. This is a slot I might switch out though.)
1x Jötun Grunt
1x Leonin Arbiter
The last two are to supplement MD 3-ofs.
Well, it's been calm over here lately, so I thought I would post my GW for critique and discussion.
Here you go but beware, long post ahead...
// Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Savannah
3 Karakas
3 Plains
1 Forest
// Creatures (28)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Serra Avenger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mangara of Corondor
// Spells (11)
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
// Sideboard (15)
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Goldmeadow Harrier
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Meekstone
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Runed Halo
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Body and Mind
Some notes:
- The sideboard must be tailored to your meta..."The flexible" spots for me are: Meekstone (Vs. Reanimator, New Horizons and occasionally Elves! and Merfolk), Wheel of Sun and Moon (Vs. Reanimator, Loam, Lands, Dredge...) and Sword of Body and Mind (Vs.? I'm just trying it out). The others are quite a MUST.
- I haven't tested Rishadan Port nor Flickerwisp. I don't like the idea of the port because I'm running 2 colors; I don't want to open the deck to manascrew, and with this land configuration I can't recall being colorscrewed. I don't like the idea of the 'Wisp because this version doesn't rely that much on the Mangara trick and I don't play Oblivion Ring (Qasali does almost the same job, but so much better...). However, it may warrant testing, as everybody here speaks wonders about the card. I don't know what to cut for it, so for the moment it is not in; but I'm open to suggestions backed up with testing
- Before you ask, Noble Hierarch doesn't belong here. The deck doesn't need accel and the exalted triggers needed (to break goyf stalemates and pump up the damage) are provided by the Pridemage.
Some wild ideas (untested, so no flaming plz):
- Do you feel that we could use Elspeth, Knight-Errant somewhere in the deck? Maybe a 2-of on the side, using 2 of the open slots? The walker is very powerful and can help when you're winning and when you're losing, so I think that it might warrant some testing. However...It can't be used with [card]Gaddock Teeg[/card]...but that shouldn't be a big problem.
- Same as above but with Eternal Witness. That card + Vial seems like a winner to me. Recurring a Wasteland, StP or a broken equipment seems nice...
- What about changing the sideboard E-tutor toolbox for a Worldly tutor toolbox? In theory, that helps us to put more pressure as we'll always be adding power to the board AND we get new Vial Tricks. However, we loose the ability to search for Vial (that I have never used) or equipment (which I have rarely used and don't mind loosing) AND we'll probably need more access to green mana. Let's see what we can get and what we loose:
Graveyard hate: We loose Wheel of Sun and Moon, Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus. We gain access to Loaming Shaman and Faerie Macabre. I'm not sure which tutor is better here.
Storm Combo: We maintain access to Ethersworn Canonist. We loose Runed Halo (which never was very good, btw...). On the other hand, we gain more access to Gaddock Teeg/Leonin Arbiter (depending on the matchup) and we could include back Glowrider/True Believer (also see Meddling Mage below). W-Tutor seems better here (however, if they go Wish --> Pyroclasm, they can take out several hatebears at once) :thumbsup:
Utility: We loose Pithing Needle, Engineered Explosives, Meekstone, Runed Halo. That's bad...We gain access to Goldmeadow Harrier, Tivadar of Thorn (goblins is not that favorable in my opinion...), Marble Titan (bad card, but...it has the same ability than Meekstone if needed), Meddling Mage (I know we can't cast it, but as a singleton could be vialed in...), Intrepid Hero (if big critters are a poblem), Dauntless Escort (Mass removal anyone?) and generally to any critter already on our deck (Mangara, Mystic, Qasali...). W-tutor seems more flexible for a diverse metagame. Probably :thumbsup:
- All the above but with Eladamri's Call instead of W-Tutor. Each has it's pros and cons, but at first I think E-tutor would be better, except in meta's where storm combo is not an issue.
Comments welcome and appreciated.
Last edited by Lorgalis; 10-13-2010 at 09:34 PM.
At least this choice is, imo, strictly worse than the E-Tutor version. As tutored cards don't end up in your hand, you're probably after a more or less permanent solution to your problems, which Wheel of Sun and Moon is in terms of yardhate, and and the hatebears you list as an alternative aren't. Eladamri's call seems better here, but it's 2 mana already. One could consider playing Living Wish at that point, which would open up accessing sideboard hate game one.
i really recommend playing Living Wish if you're playing the green splash. It is a little slow, and I've been thinking of cutting it from 3 to 2, but it makes the Mangara/Karakas engine super-reliable, and it's useful in corner cases to wish for stuff like Gaddock Teeg, Kitchen Finks, etc.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Well, I have already tested Living Wish and it doesn't work, because it is too slow. Also, I don't see myself changing anything from the MD, I just want to replicate the E-Tutor Side with W-Tutor.
I'll be testing this list and feeding the updates if anybody is interested...
How is Living Wish any slower than Eladamri's Call?
Living Wish is slower than W-Tutor in the early game, not slower than Eladamri's call.
I've been giving it some thought, and tinkering with a friend, and I'll give a shot to a build with Living Wish. And, maaaybe, play it tomorrow at my local tourney...so maybe more feedback later.
Well, I'm also going to a local tourney tomorrow. I doubt it's the same one though. :P
I'm playing a fairly standard mono-W list with 3x Mishra's Factory in place of Rishadan Port and 4x Wasteland. 3 Arbiters main and one SB.
I still don't like my SB at all, it feels too rigid. 4x Crypt and 2x Grunts to supplement 2 MD grunts is enough gravehate, a couple of kitchen finks against aggro, Wing Shards and Canonist should be ok though. It just feels bad compared to the flexibility of the toolbox.
Played 31 ppl Legacy FNM (5 rounds, no top). Went 3-2 with the following list:
9 Plains
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Oust
4 Mother of Runes
2 Goldmeadow Harrier
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
3 Jotun Grunt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Cataclysm
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Condemn
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Aura of Silence
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Runed Halo
1 Pithing Needle
It was my first real tournament in more than year and I didn't make notes, so just a small overview:
Round 1: vs Bant (I saw Top, so probably it was Countertop Bant) 2-0
Game 1: don't remember here, guess I won on the back of creature with SoLaS
Game 2: Again, won with equipped creature, but the true star in this game was Goldmeadow Harrier for tapping enemy creatures in responce to equip Jitte.
Round 2: vs Mono-Goblins, 2-0
Game 1: I installed fast Jitte, he burned 2 Flickerwisps with 2 Tarfire, I tapped his mana with Ports and ended up with Jitte on Avenger and won
Game 2: again, fast Jitte, Avenger, StP, my opponent stuck on 1 land and Vial and topdecked 4 non-goblins from Ringleader. I feel a little dirty for this game.
Round 3: vs Sneak and Tell, 1-2
Game 1: Turn 2 Sneak Attack, Emrakul, turn 3 Emrakul.
Game 2: beat him with Mystic and SoFaI, don't remember if he did something interesting
Game 3: I forgot to side in Runed Halo for Prog and was promptly eaten with turn 2 or 3 hydra.
Round 4: vs Eyeless Dredge, 1-2
Game 1: Saw Grunt too late, was eaten with Ichorids and zombies
Game 2: Turn 1 E-Tutor, Turn 2 Wheel of Sun and Moon, game
Game 3: I mulled to 6 and he Therapied my E-Tutor. After some turns of slowdredge I drew bunch of lands while he finnaly managed to dig power and made 10+ tokens
Round 5: vs Food Chain Combo, 2-0
Round 1: Managed to beat through Woodfall Primus with equipped dude. Goldmeadow Harrier done nice job.
Round 2: Ethersworn Canonist with Mom's protection prevented his combo, Harrier tapped blockers adn I bashed for the win just a turn before he could have an opportunity to combo out.
Overall, I punted alot and had some luck.
I never wanted Leonin Arbiter. Goldmeadow Harrier was full of win and I guess that 5-th StP effect can turn into 3rd kithkin.
Sideboard was usefull, but I think about -1 Grunt, -1 Condemn, +2 Wing Shards to fight Hydra.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
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