Your Snap is a Candelabra for me, and 0 Meditate.Originally Posted by ddt15
Also, 3 Turnabouts too.
Another thing I was wondering is: If I get a hold in another Candelabra, what to cut for it?
And if I have to sell the one I have (borrowed), what to put in its place?
Turnabout for both questions?
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
If you playtested long enough you wouldn't leave home without these 4 cards in your sideboard
Imagine with 3 Cunning Wishes in the maindeck and 1 Turnabout in the sideboard it's like having 6 copies of Turnabout main. (Make that 10 with Merchant Scroll). I wouldn't touch the Meditate in the sideboard. There will be times you'll be needing those extra 4 cards but don't have the mana to stroke yourself.Code:Turnabout Stroke of Genius Meditate Brainfreeze
Regarding Candelabra versus Cloud of Faeries, isn't it obvious yet which one is more busted than the other? If not for the scarcity that makes it prohibitive, there will be no questions about it. This archetype has recently put 6 different players in the top 8. Only 2 decks ran less than 3 Turnabouts. All of them have exactly 3 Cunning Wish. This is the configuration I have been suggesting;
4 Time Spiral / 3 Turnabout / 3 Cunning Wish => core
3-5 more in either form (3-4 Candelabra/Cloud of Faeries or 1-2 Snap)
And finding at least 1 of those shouldn't be a problem with so many Merchant Scroll, Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Impulse, Intuition, Meditate, Stroke of Genius, Blue Sun's Zenith, Peer Through Depths, Ideas Unbound, Trade Routes, Sensei's Divining Top, Serum Visions, Opt, Portent, Lat-Nam's Legacy, and Arcane Denial you can run.
CoF/Snap gets hit by Spell Snare, Snap also by StP on target creature. While Candelabra with Pridemage, Grip? Needle post board? As long as they are not devoting resources to get my life down to 0 fast, I'd be happy.
how is the 1-of intuition doing? is it really needed? sorry for the questions but i'm planning to build this deck next as i think it will be on its way to being established... Also, is 3 pacts the right number? don't you think it's too much considering unlike fows, pacts can only be used on the turn you win?
The 1off Intuition was the best card in the deck for me last time I played.
Regarding Pact, I guess it's up to you. I like them against Folk, but not so much against other things. It's just that is really hard to beat Merfolk without them imo.
If you feel comfortable using 6 protection spells only (+4 tutors + 2/3 Wishes + Intuition), than that should be fine.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
O Hay Guys, Look what I found!
I've been pondering to use 2 Treasure Hunt in place of 2 Impulse. Right now i'm testing the impulse, but what are your thought/experiences/feelings about treasure hunt?
As reference, I'm trying a build without Candelabra since they're not pitching to FoW and the price is high, with 3 Turnabout, 2 wish, 1 intuition, 4 merchant scroll, 4 CoF Main Deck and 1 Turnabout, 1 Snap in Sideboard.
I really can't see Treasure Hunt being good in this deck. It's only ok after a Brainstorm, by turn 3, and by then you have better things to do.
Impulse looks a million times better, and even it didn't make the cut.
@Kingtk3: I think that amount of untappers can work. 1 less than I'll try next champ.(3 Turnabouts, 3 CoF, 1 Candelabra, 3 Wish, 1 Intuition, 4 Scroll(
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
I have to say that I have the feeling Treasure hunt wouldn't make the cut too: the card came to my attention because i was running 'into too many lands when digging through the deck with cantrips and Time Spiral, although I'm running 18 lands 6 of which are fetches.
Maybe I should try Mana Severance or Manipulate Fate? Or I'm just being unlucky?
More in general, how many of you are running out of gas because Time Spiral and/or the cantrips draw too many lands?
Best regards.
Cut a land. 17 is fine with 11-12 cantrips.
Only had that problem a couple of times, but even "fizzling", the deck could combo again on the next turn.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
I agree -> 17 lands are enough ....
In my effort to come up with the most optimum list, I needed to bite the bullet and replace the maindeck Stroke with Blue Sun's Zenith. Also, discarded the "coolness" factor of Dispel/Divert from the sideboard in favor of more game-changing Ravenous/Mindbreak Traps.
My list for reference from previous page:
Namesake: 4 High Tide (Amy Weber)
10 So broken-its-Restricted-in-Vintage Cantrips
4 Brainstorm (Restricted 2008)
3 Ponder (Restricted 2008)
3 Preordain
10 Previously Banned/Restricted Untappers
4 Time Spiral (Banned/Restricted 1999)
3 Turnabout
3 Candelabra of Tawnos (Restricted 1994)
7 Combo/Solution/Meta Package Tutors
4 Merchant Scroll (Restricted 2008)
3 Cunning Wish
7 In case opponent tries-to-interact Counters
4 Force of Will
3 Pact of Negation
death's (4) Added for flavor
1 Impulse (Errata'd 2004)
1 Intuition
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
18 Lands
4 Scalding Tarn
14 Island
SideboardI am already comfortable with 14 + 4 fetch lands. Playing with 17 lands and extra fetch lands would hurt against Stifles. Just Saying..Code:1 Turnabout 1 Stroke of Genius 1 Meditate 1 Brain Freeze 3 Spell Pierce 2 Wipe Aways 1 Echoing Truth / 1 Snap 1 Hurkyl's Recall / 1 Rebuild 1 Mindbreak Trap / 1 Ravenous Trap
SCG Indianapolis is on tomorrow.. Good luck to all Legacy Tide players!
Does anyone have the list that Michael Bernat piolted at the Indy Open? I am really curious how he fit in Counter Spell...
He played 2-of Counterspell, Merchant Scroll, Cunning Wish. Then 4 of each cantrip, etc. and Explore. He ran 20 lands.
I think the Gsplash is not worth it...being wastelanded is such a huge blow to this deck...
Death, did you play in Indy?
Some of my thoughts on the deck after testing:
The one-of intuition is definitely a lifesaver as it's the only card that can get time spiral...
I also think retraced image is golden in this deck... sure sometimes it's dead, and you're gonna hate it... but being able to effectively hit more land drops per turn, specially during your post-spiral-going-off turn is great... plus at least it pitches to force if nothing else... and it's easy to side out in counter heavy matches...
I also think Emrakul + Blue Sun MD is better than Meditate + Brain Freeze...15 mana is so much easier to get than 20 storm, not to mention it dodges the occassional sneak and show decks...
I wish there was a blue instant card which could effectively tutor for Emrakul...
Last edited by mrjumbo03; 02-08-2011 at 02:34 PM.
I really dig the list, but since I dont own them, is cloud of faeries a valid replacement for candelabras? Both can get hated on, but how much will it affect your chances on hitting a Stroke on your opponent thats lethal? Alot? Or not so much if you have Snap in the board?
My impression is that a lethal Stroke/Zenith happens quite often.
Since I just own one candelabra I run an additional Snap and 2CoF main.
I really like the Snap in the MD : scroll for Snap -> bouncing a CoF has helped me out very often.
The configuration has been working fine for me. But - yes - Spell Snare sucks...
regards,
bob
What's the worst out of the 3 1-mana cantrips?
Oh and what would be make the cut, the 12th 1-mana cantrip or the 3rd pact of negation?
And what are you're thoughts on having one intuition on the side for cunning wish into intuition into time spiral plays?
What's the worst out of the 3 1-mana cantrips?
Oh and what would be make the cut, the 12th 1-mana cantrip or the 3rd pact of negation?
And what are you're thoughts on having one intuition on the side for cunning wish into intuition into time spiral plays?
Today I was reading this topic because I'm thinking about selling my cards of Ritual-based Storm Combo to embrace Spiral Tide fully. After deep thought, there are three things that I actually like a lot about this deck when compared to what I was used to play til now:
-the rock solid manabase, which is nearly impossible to disrupt.
-the parallelism between ANT deck and this, given the unban of Spiral Tide. We can say that Dark Ritual: Ad Nauseam=High Tide (and lands) + Spiral Tide. You gather mana and cast a bomb that will arguably win you the game from there. Although Time Spiral goes under Pierce and REB effects, I really like the fact of not relying on life total. I came to the conclusion that modern ANT lists are pretty nerfed from the Mystical absence in the sense that, without a way to consistently cast Ad Nauseam in the first 2-3 turns (it still happens, obviously, but not on a regular basis and it's pretty much Infernal Tutor dependant), you're losing a lot of power and finding yourself with half your engines tuned down if the opponent applies a bit of disruption paired with a clock. Here's why Junk is quite a delicate matchup now, whereas it used to be pretty easy before: you get Seized and Hymned, and Knight of the Reliquary bites chunks of your life while you sit hoping to topdeck the (few) business spells you were stripped out of them. And you topdeck Chrome Mox obviously.-. Also, Extirpate on Infernal Tutor is really a bitch since it takes over all your non-"situational" bombs.
-The compact structure that leaves little or no space for cards that are bad on their own. I never managed to dig Chrome Moxes as they were a non-existent topdeck or opening with 6,5 cards.
-The presence of multiple bombs like Meditate, which, if resolved, will give you game against slow control alone. I always cast Meditate against blue decks in Doomsday and, when it does not get countered, I'm having the resources to go off double protected the turn after 90% of the times.
-The absence of LED somehow is a benefit. In ANT you aim to build a hand that is somehow structured into a costant pattern: Infernal Tutor, LED, Protection(s), Ritual effect. The point is that LED is a card that is as sheer-powered as devoted to an all-in approach that sometimes may backfire you over. What I like in Spiral Tide is that the "acceleration" is given by a single card (High Tide) that does not mean a "go for it and if you fail you've lost" approach against blue decks.
-The ability to answer random hate post-board with a strong tutorage core in the form of Merchant Scroll and Cunning Wish (6-7 slots). ANT has little to no tutors as of now. You need to dig for a solution either with cantrips or terribad cards like Lim Dul's Vault, that goes against the aim of the deck. You can't quite answer a randomic Chalice of the Void from Merfolk (happens) or a Leyline of Sanctity from Dredge. You need to be consistent in finding the way to get off difficult situations, and you need to be fast.
- Being blue, you get reactive protection which is, in my opinion, superior to proactive disruption like Duress/Seize and blanking effects ala Silence/Chant. You get Spell Pierce which is a beast in answering what hurts Storm Combo: Force of Will, Counterbalance, Chalice/3Sphere and discard spells. CB particularly, since the metagame is going to shift back to its dominion and it's already happening.
Force of Will is also quite good, although it demands a profound knowledge of what to pitch.
-Generally, I like the flexibility of the deck to answer situation given its multi-purpose cards that are good. That's what ANT lacks now.
It seems you can switch easily from a controllish approach against control decks where you slowroll them by landdropping costantly, to the ability of stealing fast wins against aggro: Time Spiral allows for some t3 wins, is this true? I have never tested the deck til now but I'm pretty expert in analyzing average hands and the structure of a Storm Combo, and it seems it got a boost in speed from, say, regular Spring Tide versions.
-Turnabout is a beast against Countertop and Tempo decks, if not answered.
-A clear advantage in the other Combo matchups where, past turn 3 where you play control, you're going to the favourite.
There also some downsides, obviously:
-you rely on High Tide to win. I've seen lists here in Italy playing Sapphire Medallion which is very strong in giving #5-8 acceleration, but I dislike the thought of giving targets to Qasali Pridemage where it would normally be a dead card.
-you are suffering much more multiple-counter hands from Tempo decks than ANT does. A combination of Reb+Pierce+Snare from Tempo decks (Faeries aka Next Level Threshold) can give you serious problems.
-Your aggro matchup is slightly weakened, but I guess Time Spiral makes it possible to still leave those as very good (around 65-35).
-With all those Show and Tell decks pouring up lately, Freezing through multiple Emrakuls is pretty hard.
-High Tide is a must resolve (I guess) unless you're playing for the long term.
-You lose to Iona.
I ask you expert Spiral Tide developers (Egosum particularly) if I was wrong in some of those considerations, and if you have previously playedANT or TES, feel free to agree or disagree on some of the aforementioned points. I just want to go deeper into the deck before starting to test (and buy) it.
These is just theorical masturbation ofc, but I wanted to share.
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Never cut a Brainstorm as it lets you draw 3 new cards. Ponder digs deeper than Preordain and it gets better with extra fetchlands to shuffle the chaff away. Pact is there for 'just in case your opponent has Force of Will' so it can be cut if there's not a lot of Force in your meta. With all 12 cantrips that dig for your combo, an Intuition on the side is not needed.
@Piceli, most of your analysis are acceptable. Storming against multiple Emrakuls is impossible that's why I don't advocate freeze-only kill. Another downside is that each Spiral twisters all opponent's FoWs back, something extra to handle that a Tendrils deck don't need to.
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