I've done some testing back with PFires/Groves. It definitely keeps goblin in check. If you are worried that a Goblin player is going to play around PFires by going:Originally Posted by ivanpei
Accumulate enough mana, drop a Chieftain, Ringleader and get enough gobs on one turn such that your Fires engine is weak, then you would have to play around that. What I mean is, they still won't be able to play around an active Fires.
If they play Warchief and pass priority, burn it. If they play Ringleader, counter it. It's hard for them to play both warchief/Ringleader or Warchief/Warchief, Ringleader/Ringleader without a Vial (which you need to deal with btw or PFires will be a little tough to maintain checks). The main selling point of PFires is that it will always keep the game in check when its online. Gobs/Folks die to Spout but they can rebuild fast (Silvergill adept and Ringleaders). With Fires, it's hard to rebuild without overextending. If you're playing Goyfs, it makes them even more determined to put dudes out that slowly all die to PFires.
The only drawback against PFires is its inability to answer Goyf/Knights. In my previous testing (2 weeks of tournament so not too much testing), I ran 3 PFires 2 Wish (for the 4th), 3 Groves, and 3 EE. That allowed me to do well against tribal and still have outs to Goyf/Knights.
Unfortunately, I do agree that Shackles is a bit slow, and now that a majority of people are running 4-5 non-Islands in the MD, not being able to steal a Goyf/Knight/whatever has started to become relevant. Also, being another card that gets hit by Grip/Pridemage post-board is not great. All in all, I'm going to try removing it and see if something faster can be found. It's an amazing card, but right now other cards may be more relevant in the MD.
EE messing up the CB curve slightly is notable, but EE is so amazing in almost every matchup that I feel it outweighs the desynergy. I've been studying the CB lists from the recent SCG and trying to incorporate some of their card choices, but a lot of stuff in the topped lists I just don't understand:
-I tried 2x Trinket Mage with a Needle MD and a Scroll SB, and had very mixed results. Being an easy-to-cast 3-drop is nice with all the basics, but he's effectively a Fabricate + Healing Salve in everything but Control matchups. That is not good enough for me. Fetching the EE or Top I need was cool, but his impact was minimal until T3-T4, and like I said, he usually just chump-blocked.
-Tried cutting a Jace for more room, and wasn't pleased. Very rarely has my hand ever been clogged with multiple Jaces, and if you have 4 mana, he's always either a 4-mana Brainstorm + Fog or a Fog + Unsummon. If he's not either of those, he just wins you the game, and I can't ever see my self running less than 3.
-While I still feel Lavamancer is awesome in non-Fires builds, he's not MD worthy at all. His strength is in aggro-MUs when they SB out their removal. MD he just eats removal or has too little impact in different MUs.
I understand these guys are all great players, but with exception to the ProCB deck, all of their lists look kinda weird. So I don't think we gained much technology from the latest SCG.
Like Mon said, the lack of hard-counters or any other non-FoW counters is being felt. Of course we can make up for this in the SB, but I don't like auto-losing to Combo and SnT G1 if I don't get a randomly amazing hand. A surplus of removal (StP, FS, EE, Fires, Shackles) is really nice against aggro, and would more than likely pay off in a large tournament, but being paired early against a non-aggro deck can put us off on a bad note. For reference, here's the list I've been testing/building that utilizes heavy removal for an aggro meta:
1 Ruins
2 Grove (I'm unsure if one of these should be another Fetch)
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Strand
4 Rainforest
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic
2 Tropical
4 BS, FoW, CB, Top, Tarmogoyf, and StP
3 Jace and Intuition
2 Fires
1 EE
1 Loam
4 missing slots (explained below)
I don't know what the last 4 should be. I'm wondering if I could run 3 Fires MD with no Firespout and SB the 3 FS in order to make space for more counters/EEs/whatever. I would love to have another EE MD for general purpose, and some number of FS MD would also be nice (I'm thinking a 2/2 split between Firespout and PFires). The most important thing I feel the deck needs is 1) more blue cards (perferable 20 MD), and 2) Disruption for other CB/Control/Combo-ish decks. On my list of cards for those roles is: Counterspell, Clique, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, and Daze.
My list above is also light on the 3-drop curve, which is not good. I've tested 2 Trinket/+1 EE/1 Needle and was not pleased. This is the conundrum I'm facing.
So how do you guys feel?
-Do you guys think we should relegate Fires to the SB completely (something like 2 Grove/2-3 Fires SBed), use a 1 Grove/2 Fires split MD with backup in the SB, go all out and run 5 slots for the Fires engine MD, or just not use it at all?
-What's everyones disruption suite looking like? We all run the standard 4 Force and 4 CB, but what about the other counters/disruption? CS is standard for non-Fires builds, but Spell Snare/Pierce, Daze and others all look to be good candidates. I guess this is irrelevant in an aggro-heavy meta, but as the SCG shows us, CB decks are on the rise. We need to prepare. Should we just running counters in the SB, or start MDing more disruption?
-More EEs MD? I love EE every time I see it, and more EEs means more random EE locks without Intuition. Regardless of what GerryT says, it's amazing against CB and every other non-Combo deck in the format. Should we up the count?
Just some things I've been pondering, and could definitely use some thoughts and opinions from you guys.
EDIT: Metalwalker, can you post your list with Cunning Wish?
"Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk."
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@ Mana Drain:
We're running the same manabase, except for the Flooded Strands (Scalding Tarns). I don't feel either of the 2 Groves should be another fetch; we're running 2 basic Islands maindecked and 7 duals that tap for blue as well. 8 fetches feels just correct; I haven't had a single situation where I'd have wished the Groves were fetches (in fact they're like Taiga's, which is great with the maindecked Firespouts, Goyfs, Loam and 3x Punishing Fire in the SB). I'm running a 3rd Grove in the SB, since I feel a 3-3 split is everything you'd wish for (also without having to use Intuition when you aren't able to do so.
Even with the 2 maindecked Groves, I'm still running 2x Counterspell (but this might be meta dependent as well, the only problem I see is less FoW food.
This brought me to the idea of going -1 MD Shackles, +1 Vendillion Clique? With 2x Punishing Fire in the main instead of 2x Counterspell, you still have +1 blue spell (it can be pitched to FoW, it's another 3-drop for CB and we are able to cast her with a mana base like this (2 basic Islands, 7 duals, 8 fetches).
Grove/Fire Engine seem really powerful on paper, but the more I read about you guys opinion, I kept thinking about these things.
-The engine weakened our mana base and reduce the blue count.
-This engine take too many slots. Our 75 is already really tight.
-Losing Counterspell main. :(
-Does this engine improve the goblin matchup?
I agree with Mana Drain that Lavamancer is not MD material, but he definitely shines in the SB against tribal. He takes less slots in the 75, which is a huge reason why I like it more than Fire/Grove. I don't think 2 is enough in the SB tho. I might bump him up to 3 if I face a lot of tribal. I really like the Grove/Fire in CT also, but I just don't know how I can fit this engine in the deck while maintaining stability of the deck.
@ Shackle: It is very slow, but from my experience it is very gamebreaking if we are playing the control role and it complement Firespout very well. I am thinking of running another explosive in the main instead of shackle. EE is such a beast against everything.
I got my 3rd Jace recently also and 4x Lavamancer coming in the mail, here is my list that I am going to test:
1 Ruins
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Tarn
4 Rainforest
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic
3 Tropical
4 BS
4 FoW
4 STP
4 Top
4 CB
4 Goyf
3 JTMS
3 Intuition
3 Firespout
2 EE
2 Counterspell
1 Loam
SB:
3 Lavamancer
3 REB
2 PtE
2 Nature's Claim
2 Clique
1 EE
1 Firespout
1 Crypt
Basically Mana Drain's primer list with:
MD
+1 EE
-1 Shackle
SB
+1 Lavamancer
-1 EE
To those folks complaining that PFire dismantles the manabase etc etc:
// Lands
3 [R] Tropical Island
2 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [ST] Forest
3 [ROE] Island
1 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [IA] Plains
2 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 [SHM] Firespout
2 [TE] Intuition
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [A] Counterspell
2 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
It has been working like a charm so far and the manabase didn't disappoint me once. Sure, you need Intuition to get PFire started, but that's a risk I'll gladly take when I can run such a flexible deck.
I've been considering to cut 1 PFire and play a Trinket Mage, a V Clique or the 3rd Intuition instead.
I have a Wasteland in the SB for the Control mirrors and it has been the nuts, so far. I also ditched K Grip for Nature's Claim - it's way worse in the mirror, but it deals with AEther Vial asap, Wasteland/Port don't really impede with your ability to cast it and the lifegain is pretty much irrelevant.
This looks like a job for me.
Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.
Cutting the Shackles instead of PFire is an interesting thought, PFire fulfills a similar role against Tribal and other Weenie aggro while EE-recursion should be able to deal with anything Fire doesn't kill (sans Tombstalker). Maybe Shackles would really be better to have in the SB, having CSpell MD is such a boon for control...
As for running more EEs, I think at that point the deck moves too much in the direction of something like CAB Jace, a transformation that sounds good out of the SB but problematic MD. I mean, I love EE because it's just so versatile but the most common setting is 2 - which has obvious problems in conjunction with CB. I suspect in the end the EEs are better off being in the SB to come in against decks where you're primary focus isn't the CB lock (or that run CB themselves, leaving you wanting more answers).
@Metalwalker: I suspect that the deck you tested with (Wishes) was far more reminiscent of Landstill or CAB Jace than this. Correct? Not that that invalidates what you said about the power of PFire, rather it's just I don't expect the list would belong here.
@hyc8028: The difference between Fire/Grove and Lavamancer is that one wins the game against Tribal on its own while the other can be Incineratored or otherwise rendered useless (Needle, any removal, BEB from Fish, etc). With Loam easily accessible in this deck, there is basically nothing Tribal can do to stop Punishing Fire from completely dominating them. As for the color-issues, 17-18 blue sources seems plenty. Even Draw Go had only 18 Islands and no Brainstorms to fix for them (Impulse doesn't help make turn 2 UU).
Game one having 1 Fire and 1 Grove means if you get to Intuition when you won't die in the next two turns, it's GG against Tribal. Postboard you don't even need Intuition a lot of the time because you have so many pieces. Considering Goblins seems to be the deck's worst matchup (after what I read), this appears quite useful.
It's easy to integrate (in your list you could cut 1 EE (probably pushes a Nature's Claim out of the SB at that point) and a Trop - still 18 U sources - for a Fire and a Grove, than replace Lavamancers and the Firespout in the SB with two more Groves and Fires which also has the incidental benefit of boarding more lands against decks full of mana denial and better supporting the Fires - they really want a lot of mana) and gives you something that utterly dominates aggro instead of more things to work small edges into a win. The engine even dominates Landstill (they can't ever kill you any more because both Walkers and Mishra's can be fired out).
@Mana Drain: In that list, I'd probably turn one Tundra into a Volc to better support the Fires post SB, the engine really is a whore for red mana. You shouldn't need more than two Tundras considering you only have StP and Loam to get back the Tundras should you really run out. As much as I love PFire, though, I'd probably move the second to the board to make room for 3 Firespout (so you can Intuition for it - the SB would then contain another two Fire and a Grove) and play 2 Counterspell in the last two free slots (to help against decks where removal is less relevant/useless), letting EE and Fire take care of the lategame, respectively. Clique is a good card but Counterspell is faster, works better for the CB-curve and always stops what you need to stop (while Clique might randomly draw them into something else/comes to late if they're already casting what you want to stop)
This leaves you with a near-perfect CB-curve of
0 : 23 (lands, EE)
1: 12 (BS, SDT, StP)
2: 12 (CB, Goyf, PFire, Loam, CS)
3: 6 (3 FS, 3 Intuition)
4: 3 (Jace - this might be a little low with Natural Order and Jace on the uptick)
5: 4 (FoW)
Postboard you could configure the deck with the perfect removal engine (EE, PFire, Shackles) and more Countermagic against decks you don't want the removal against (REBs, Spell Pierces even additional CSpell or Negate now that there are fewer Islands). Add a pinch of GY hate and KGrip and you should be good to go. Something like this, maybe?
SB
1 Grove
2 Fire
1 Shackles
2 EE
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 KGrip - not sure how necessary these are, considering you're on the EE plan against CB anyway. Might be better of as something like Bant Charm providing you with even more possible Countermagic, an out to Needle on EE if you can't get the Ratchet bomb (say CB on 2 is active) and more removal for big guys. Or you could simply run even more countermagic (for combo and control, obv) or Paths (if you feel that you need more cheap ways to kill big guys)
5 REB/Pyroblast/Spell Pierce/Counterspell/VClique (Personally I wouldn't leave home without at least a few REBs, Jace is that good and additional removal against Fish is always appreciated. I'd probably run 2 REB, 2 Pierce, 1 Negate)
1 Tormod's Crypt (I hate not having anything that just ends Dredge at least of off Intuition and being able to stop Loam from recurring Wastelands is also quite useful imo)
That way you play an incredibly flexible deck game one that can Intuition to be a board-control-deck, CB-lock them or just aggro them out with Goyfs while post SB you can transform into your choice of regular-style CB control, MonoU + CB (9-13 counters depending on if you run Bant Charm and they run blue, plus 4 CB) PFire-board-control or EE-lock board-control (I'd avoid showing them the Loam/Intuition game 1 if possible to avoid the SB gy-hate, though I know this is probably hard to do). Looks pretty sick to me on paper. You could even run a Nevinyrral's Disk for the total permanent-lock (that conveniently leaves your Jaces alone) and a way to kill Prog if you wanted.
Even thinking about cutting a Jace is a cardinal sin, though, that card is the nuts! ;) No control-deck should run less than 3 Jaces (I'm tempted to say 4 because that's my honest opinion, but the whole rest of the world seems to differ on the matter and 4 mana is kinda pricey in Legacy admittedly). I'm sufficiently annoyed I don't see a way to get a fourth into the deck, I wouldn't ever think of cutting one :p
/edit: wrote this before Nidd posted.
I'm pretty sure you want a third Volc especially without the Mountain, probably in place of the third Island. Two seems like it should be enough and getting a bunch of red online makes Fire shine (mainly a concern post-SB).
How has only having two Intuition been treating you, do they come up often enough to make the one-off nature of certain cards worth it?
Wasteland out of the board against control seems savage. I remember I suggested running one MD to Valtrix when he ran the original list by me last summer.
Finally, if you run Nature's claim mainly as an answer to Vial, have you considered Pithing Needle? It's arguably cheaper (colorless vs Instant speed), has more applications in the Vial-matchups if Vial isn't a concern (Wasteland to protect Grove/Ruins, Mutavault against Fish) and can be Intuitioned up with Ruins if you really need it fast. It's also a cheaper way to stop annoying Planeswalkers if EE for four would be too slow/difficult to resolve.
I don't have low self-esteem, I have low esteem for everyone else. -Daria
Proud member of Team CAB
High Priest of the Church of BLA
CAB JaceTM
My articles
I also think having 1 more R source somewhere in there is necessary, if I can get my hands on another one for the next tournament I'll try it - though playing less than 3 Islands looks pretty greedy to me.
The Wasteland is the stone cold nuts. Plus, the facial expressions of your opponents when a 4 color deck busts out Wasteland is priceless.
Playing 2 Intuition only hasn't been a big concern, to be honest. 4 Brainstorm + 4 SDT ensure I see an Intuition when I need it.
I considered Needle, it would push me towards replacing 1 PFire with 1 Trinket Mage, but I found out that Goblins often board in a Tinkerer against SDT - boarding in Needles when I know I'll face Tinkerer seems like a bad move. I also prefer to cards that get rid of stuff when playing Control decks instead of packing disruptive cards like Needle.
Maybe that's a question of personal preferences, though.
This looks like a job for me.
Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.
This was also my line of thought for moving Shackles to the board. And if there ever is a Tomstalker, he can meet Sords to Plowshares.
As you can see last page, I play the same MD (1Fire, 2 CS). What is in your 22 Lands? For reference, my Mana is:
2 Island
1 Forest
4 Rainforest
4 Tarn
3 of each Dual
1 Grove
1 Academy Ruins
And my current Board is:
1 Grove
2 Fire
1 Shackles
2 EE
2 Pierce
2 REB
2 Grip
3 Tormods Crypt (I just hate to lose against Dredge)
The purpose of the basic Forest is to provide an out to Blood Moon and to always be able to Loam.
Would a basic Mountain be good against the Wasteland-Decks? I mean as soon as we Intuition for Fire/Grove/Loam we get our lands back anyway.
Another question is the amount of grave-hate. As you can see in my Board I literally hate Dredge. How is that match-up for you with only one specific grave-hate? What is your plan to beat them?
I never felt the need to play GY hate because of Dredge. 99% of the pilots plain suck.
Also, EE + Firespout is decent against them. StP is good against outlets and Ichorid, FoW counters their outlet or Breakthrough.
DDD is kinda slow, I suppose establishing CBT and keeping a Firespout in your hand goes a long way to beating them. Counter their CT with CBT and wipe the board after they reach a certain amount of tokens. They can't keep making Zombies forever.
This looks like a job for me.
Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.
I play MTGO. In my experience, as soon as you play for tix the dredge-pilots are good.
I actually board out the counterbalances, because they only keep them from playing Therapy. I bring in REB, Spell Pierce and EE. REB is not only for Breakthrough, but also to kill Narcos during the slowdredging. But without grave-hate they can just do their big dredge thing via Colliseum and win.
And I don't really like Firespout against zombies. I prefer to fight the zombie-enabler. In my experience, if they can generate a decent amount of zombies, Firespout rarely matters. They therapy and dread return and then Iona swings.
Perhaps 3 Crypts are too much, but I definetly want some.
@Nidd: It's not like your opponent won't be able to Waste you at some point anyway, 2 Islands and two other basics gives you the tools to play pretty much everything even under Waste-lock.
Interesting to know you can bump down Intuition without major negative impact, something to keep in mind if the deck really needs more room. Might allow me to add that fourth Jace should I play the deck ;)
As to Needle vs Claim, I think both choices are perfectly defensible. Needle seems better against Goblins if they don't draw Vial or have multiples (especially with Fire Grove - shutting of Wasteland early before you have Loam, Tinkerer shouldn't come online through Fire) but Claim has it's own advantages, especially blowing up opposing Needles on EE (and even a little Fire-synergy - kill your Vial, get back my Fires, gotcha *g*).
@Link: Actually, I haven't played a single game with the deck, just read the thread and A LOT of experience with (Legacy & Vintage) control, especially grind-out control (I've been playing CAB Jace for about a year now, though with short pauses to still my urge to run combo). That's the reason why anything I've written is either about a particular engine I'm very familiar with (EE-Ruins, PFire) or simply suggestions as to how things look from my perspective considering my general experience with control.
As such, I'm not 100% confident as far as the manabase is concerned because it's nearly impossible to get a manabase right without actually playing a few games to get a feel for it. As to what I'd run if you told me to put the deck together right now, it'd probably be:
2 Island
2 Tropical
1 Forest
2 Tundra
1 Plains
3 Volcanic
4 Strand
4 Misty
2 Grove
1 ARuins
17 blue sources, basics for playing Goyf/StP early while insuring I don't get wasted out of the early defense colors (allows you to run fewer sources over all, which is nice). 2 Groves MD so that I can go to 3/3 post SB without taking up a second slot in the board for a land, otherwise I'd run Nidds manabase - Island + Volc, which I think is actually the best if there's room for two Groves in the SB. Three Groves because I really want to simply draw into the combo postboard more often than not, so much faster than having to Intuition.
The reason I'd decide for red as the color without a basic is that you can always cast the Firespout directly when you need it and if you're using PFire they're better off killing the Grove. That being said, it might actually be correct to run 2 Volc + Mountain with Tarns instead of Misty and simply run three Tropicals (and the Groves) as your green sources (or use Mana Drains mana base -Tundra + Volc if you're ready to play without the basic Plains - that way you get the mana to really support PFire post SB at the cost of having to be careful when you fetch up your white). The reason to make green the no-basic color would be that, if you need G-mana repeatedly, that usually means you have Loam online and at that point you can play around them cutting you off green pretty easily, only make sure you always either have a Trop in hand, 2 on the board or a Fetch available with a Trop still in the deck. This opens you up to Wasteland if you need to use Goyf for defense but has the benefit of having the ability to fetch for your Firespout-mana before you want to use it and have it be immune to Wasteland (sometimes you need to crack your Fetches to play stuff, meaning you can't always hold back until you want to cast the Spout).
Btw, any two non-mountain basics give you an out to Moon because together with your non-basics they allow you to set EE to 3 (Island/Plains probably being the best combination because your StPs and main color are online - with all removal online you should be able to survive and Plains makes it easy to deal with Magus of the Moon if not Blood Moon itself).
As for the plan against Dredge, if I was really planning to make the matchup good I'd run three Crypts same as you do. The SB I suggested was for Mana Drain, who as far as I've seen doesn't run any GY-hate at all normally - so there is probably no reason for him to suddenly run the full anti-dredge program. With the single Crypt my plan against Dredge would be to try and have a EE (for 0) early so that he can't all-in kill me with Zombies, using the regular removal and countermagic to slow him down a tick so that I can Intuition for the lock (Ruins, Crypt, Loam) ASAP.
/edit: You guys always post faster than I do... I think you either want exactly one Crypt (to enable the lock) or at least three (so you can Intuition for them on turn 3 and be ready to pop one). Two doesn't make any sense to me.
I don't have low self-esteem, I have low esteem for everyone else. -Daria
Proud member of Team CAB
High Priest of the Church of BLA
CAB JaceTM
My articles
All of these are extremely important points. The manabase is slightly weakened, but drawing Groves and only one other land is dicey. If you really want the engine to be consistent, you need to dedicate ~5 slots, and the space just isn't available MD. Counterspell is a great and valuable addition to the counter-suit and I really don't like not running it.
Also of note: Fires is extremely good against Goblins - sometimes. Fast draws, excessive Wastelands/Ports, and subtle inconsistencies with Fires can be insufficient to stop the green men.
Excellent post. The thing about EE I find is, I side it in every-single non-combo match. I love seeing it at all stages of the game, and increasing the random EE-lock factor is a plus. The only reason for me not running 2 now is space-constraints.
Tundra at 2 is also something I was fiddling with. With only 6 cards at max requiring W and plenty of fetchs to find them, I'm beginning to feel 2 is sufficient.
The minimalist approach to Fires (1 Grove/1-2 Fires) is most appealing to me right now, simply because the space in this deck is almost non-existent. Additional spot removal is always a good thing.
@hyc8028: I like that list, and I'm glad Lavamancer is getting some appreciation. I wouldn't run more than 3 though, because you don't want to see multiples in an opener.
@Nidd: Those are the same reasons why I feel Claim is amazing. The lifegain actually is relevant - It triggers Fires. Something to keep in mind.
@Link-Ramirez: If you're going the Fires rout, the basic Mountain would be good. Making sure you can FS against aggro is strong enough to play basic Mountain.
On GY-Hate: As said in the primer, this is meta-dependent, but I feel a single Crypt should be in everyone's board. It single-handedly gives you a "victory button" against Dredge and Lands while only taking up one slot. More than that is all personal preference. My experience has proven that the lone Crypt is all you need to beat Dredge, and I've yet to lose a single match against Dredge playing my SB in the primer.
Last edited by Mana Drain; 02-11-2011 at 07:51 PM.
"Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk."
"You guarantee it? That's - how do you do that?"
"If you're not happy with the first 7 minutes, we're gonna send you the extra minute free. You see? That's it. That's our motto. That's where we're comin' from. That's from A to B."
Counterspell should be maindecked, period (if only because it's FoW food and just another 2-drop for CB). This doesn't mean you can't go for the Fire route at the same time...(just not maindecked). We just need to pay serious attention on the manabase and the SB.
I took more time with the deck to see what I could do to the manabase and SB to make it work with the Fire/Grove package; I personally think the Fire/Grove package is too useful and valuable to pass on and yes, you'll need to dedicate some slots to it in the SB.
So, after testing the playability of the deck with Fire/Grove I came up with the following MD manabase:
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Academy Ruins
Probably the most important change I made to the maindeck is going -1 Forest, +1 Savannah. Why? Because it still produces G, while it's another mana source for Swords at the same time (next to 2 Tundra/3 Tropical). Another very nice thing to mention is that the 1-off Savannah can be fetched of a Misty Rainforest.... It's probably one of the nicest things I've done to the manabase, with 1 Grove included and 3 Fire/1 Grove in the SB. Note: don't forget Grove produces R/G, not only for Fire. Giving 1 life because you just casted a 5/6 Goyf isn't the end of the world. Or 1 life because you just Spouted 2/3 flying dudes.
I really love the Savannah in my list and it also goes perfectly with the SB plan (-1 Trop, +1 Grove). The mana base feels strong because it gives you all the mana you'll ever need, even without taking Intuition/Loam into consideration, but of course we don't run them without a reason, so use them wisely and just play tight as always. My list still contains all the basics it's supposed to have, with the exception of the basic Forest and for good reasons.
SB:
3 Punishing Fire
1 Grove of the Burnwillows (-1 Tropical Island). I side this one in together with 3 Punishing Fire and 1 Firespout.
1 Firespout
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Ratchet Bomb
Last edited by Deady; 02-13-2011 at 02:38 PM.
@Mon: Thanks for the detailed answer. I just tried the manabase you suggested (basic Forest and Plains) in a Daily Event and went 3-1. I like you argument against basic Forest and pro basic Plains to fight Moon effects. I think I will use as few non-blue lands as possible, so I guess I stick to the basic Plains and use a blue dual instead of the basic Forest.
@Mana Drain: The early Firespout was the reason I was thinking about the basic Mountain. But I think for now I will just play a basic Plains.
In the Daily Event I beat 2xStorm, 1xZoo and lost against Lands. What is the plan against Lands?
Game 1 I tried to get CB online ASAP which was not turn 2 thanks to a non-blue Land. Perhaps I should have mulliganed. Btw this is a reason why I want to play as few non-blue lands as possible. I don't want to mulligan more than necessary.
In game 2 I also brought in the Crypts but it turned out that he didn't need Loam to win.
What would be a good target for Force of Will in this matchup? It was the first time I played against Lands and I FoW a turn 1 Manabond to slow down his developement. Reasonable? Or is it better to ignore the accelerators and keep the Counterspells to delay Loam as long as possible or for stuff that destroys CB or Jace? What about Pithing Needle on Wasteland/Manland/Explosives? I would first need to make room for Needle in the board of course.
@Deadly: I don't agree with Savannah. One of the major problems with Fires/Grove is the fact that Grove is a non-basic, non-fetchable, non-Island land that doesn't produce U. Savannah doesn't produce U, is still non-basic, and the two colors it produces are can be made just as easily while maintaining plenty of U, Islands for Shackles (if you run it) or providing un-Wastability (Forest). As I said above, even with 2 Tundras I find W easy to get, and in fact don't like seeing Tundra unless I'm fetching for it. Most builds at the most run 6-7 W cards, and Wasteland's are going to be aimed at your R and G sources, rather than the Tundras. You also rarely need more than one G source out at a time, so if you already have Trop/Forest, Savannah's utility goes down even further.
I can't say I've heavily tested Savannah (if at all), but I can say that I can't remember many times when I've ever needed both W and G out of a single land. Especially if Fires is in the mix, I would feel Taiga or additional Groves would be more supportive due to the heavy R requirements Fires asks for.
@Link: It took a while for everyone to convince me that off-color basics were worthwhile, but in the end, Mountain proved extremely useful in every matchup that I NEEDED R for.
Lands can be a pain, but overall I've found the additional basics and Intuition for Loam/Ruins/Crypt to be the game stopper, in addition to CB. They don't need the grave to win, but shutting it down makes life much easier for you, and I've found Lands players often have some sort of "Man-Plan" post-board, like Terravore or Goyf or KotR, which are all grave-dependent.
Forcing the T1 accelerator is a good play. If they don't have Manabond/Exploration out in the first two turns, they are really slow to get rolling, giving us plenty of time to set up CB or Crypt-Lock. Jace is really hard for them to destroy, and Goyf still serves as a 2-drop for CB and a wall for Factories/Mutas. I put in Red blasts for the Intuitions (if they run them), Cliques if I have them, Grips, and all Enchantment/Artifact hate possible for their SB hate for us. Choke, Chalice, Null Rod and others often come in, and they are a major pain in the ass, but if you have the answer for them, the matchup is much easier.
Practice the matchup and it's you'll know how to SB against them and their "must resolve" cards that have to be answered. Random losses to Waste/Port heavy hands do happen, but most of the time they can be shut-out by an eary CB or Jace. If you have the slots to dedicate, Needle is effective against them, but they always run Grips/EEs of their own post-board, so don't lean heavily on them to win. Good luck!
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@Mana Drain,
The reason I chose for Savannah is pretty simple: because I don't like playing the basic Forest anymore with 2 Groves maindecked and 3 Tropical Islands. I think it's overkill, aside from Loam. The basic forest already didn't produce U, neither the Savannah, but I do find the Savannah more useful in general....it gives me far more options and gives a different flavor to my playstyle (it makes it easier for me to fetch for the right dual/basic as well, depending on what's in my hands already). When they waste Savannah, it's like a wasted play. Savannah also makes it easier for me to SB correctly and to be able to go -1 Tropical Island, +1 Grov, which is another reason why I chose for the Savannah.
I hope you understand that STP combo's with Fire as well...Let's say you play STP in the mid/late game (thus giving your opponent life) and pay for another Firespout or Punishing Fire, you get one (or more) of your Fires back again, without necessarily having to use Grove (you just tapped a Volcanic or basic Mountain)...STP is able to do this, because it's only 1 mana; it's not without a reason the best removal spell ever.
Right now with these changes I'm playing with 23 lands instead of the usual 22, but it feels right. It also means I'm playing with 61 cards instead of 60.
Manabase:
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Academy Ruins
SB:
3 Punishing Fire
1 Grove of the Burnwillows (-1 Trop)
1 Firespout
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Ratchet Bomb
Running non-basic non-blue lands in this deck that don't do anything in particularseems really bad. Your goal is to CB on 2 (or at least to have the possibility). Any land that doesn't help with that has to bring something impressive to the table (unwasteable, does more than produce mana - Grove, Ruins, maybe Waste or some manland would be defensible). Savannah doesn't, all it does is allow you to cast StP of your Forest. G and W are two of the least used colors in the deck. Why would you want a land that only produces colorless mana for 85% of your spells? Grove supports the same number of spells being RG and would you ever play that if it didn't combo with Fires?
I mean you say "When they waste Savannah, it's like a wasted play." To me that means the Savannah was utterly useless to begin with and shouldn't have been in your deck. What if they Waste your other dual instead and you're left without blue mana?
How does Savannah change your playstyle? Sure, you have all your colors of only Volcanic + Savannah but you also can't cast some of your most important spells with that (CB, CS, Jace - though the latter probably comes down when you have some other Island). Having an easier time chosing what lands to fetch also isn't a reason to make your manabase worse, it's a reason to play more until you can fetch correctly in your sleep. Basics give you options - they allow you to decide that you don't want to get hit by Wasteland yet. Fetches give you options (colors and access to basics). Savannah gives you a minor option you usually won't need but costs you all those instead.it gives me far more options and gives a different flavor to my playstyle (it makes it easier for me to fetch for the right dual/basic as well, depending on what's in my hands already)
In short that land should either be something U-based, a Fetch or a basic. If you feel you have easily enough U and G-sources I suggest a Plains (and swapping Fetches). That way you can make sure they can never keep you off your removal-colors through Wasteland.
PS: I know the feeling. There was a Plateau in CAB Jace for a long time because that way you could get Tundra, Volc, Plateau as your lands and have your main colors available even if one got wasted. That deck needed UU a lot later though and I still cut the Plateau for another Fetch because I rmissed on turn 4 Jace once too often.
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@ Mana Drain, @ Mon,Goblin Chief
You guys were right about the Savannah; it's just the wrong move for an already tight deck where getting UU is much more important than getting G/W in the early game. It's better to have more fetches in your starting hand than holding a basic Forest, Volcanic Island and a Savannah instead of another fetch (or just another blue mana producer). Of course this is most important pre-board as we play Counterbalance, Counterspell and Jace. Post-board it depends on your SB strategy and the matchups you're facing.
My apologies for all the Savannah-talk before this post , but I haven't slept for like 6 hours during the whole weekend (!)
Anyway, forget about the Savannah.
Here's my newest take on the deck (both MD and SB) and of course with Grove/Fire involved. I configured the deck in such way that only 3 slots in the SB are needed to support the full Grove/Fire package (a 3-3 split), which is pretty amazing by itself.
MD:
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Academy Ruins
3 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
2 Tundra
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Punishing Fire
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Firespout
1 Life from the Loam
3 Intuition
1 Vedalken Shackles
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
SB:
1 Firespout
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Punishing Fire
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
2 Pyroblast
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Shackles
1 Ratchet Bomb
*Note that I'm running a 3-1 split between Swords and Fire in the main!
Really like that list, though I'd like it even more with the fourth StP - running only three seems so greedy in a meta full of creatures. Personally I'd cut the Shackles for the fourth (you have one in the board and EE/PFire should take care of your lategame removal-needs just fine).
Two nitpicks concerning the SB: With the 5 non-blue sources, Negate is proably better than Counterspell (the decks where you're going to bring these in not countering creatures should be irrelevant, I guess). Also, very minor, there's the classic REB - Pyro split, which while having benefits that come up rarely, is generally superior to two of the same kind (and in non-storm-decks REB is generally superior to Pyro if you want to keep them the same).
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What is the difference between REB and Pyroblast?
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