Originally Posted by Jackehehe
I propose a solution to your problem.
U/W Countertop Superfriends with Mental Misstep
Lands (22)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
7 Island
2 Plains
1 Kor Haven
Creatures (0)
Spells (38)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Journey to Nowhere
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Ensnaring Bridge
Sideboard (15)
2 Aura of Silence
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Peacekeeper
4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle
I'm currently testing Ensnaring Bridge now that the list doesn't have Predict as it is very good versus Merfolk. I took out PTE for Journey to Nowhere to maintain 10 cmc of 2 cards for CounterTop. They are slightly worse but act as another way to deal with giant tentacle monsters and help perfect the mana curve. I'm also testing all Jace over Jace/Elspeth split.
Sorry Hanni, but I feel that Predict is less important than having Mental Misstep to protect our countertop combo in the mirror. Between fighting the mirror and having an out versus Aether Vial on turn 1, I feel that MMS is needed.
I actually agree on this point (if the meta will be heavy aggro). I've never liked Predict anyways. It's not that I think it's bad, I just think it's unnecessary and can better be replaced by a card that actually does something. Like I said before, with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Top & 2 Jace I don't think this deck really needs actuall card drawing. The only thing I would change is -1 Jace, -1 Ensnaring Bridge, +2 Elspeth. As another option in adition to the previous changes; -1 Journey or Oblivion Ring +1 Enlightened Tutor. I've posted all my thoughts on the awesomeness of ETutor a couple of posts ago. I think Journey to Nowhere is pretty janky in Legacy but I can't find another good 2cc card to fill that slot either..
EDIT :: Just thought about something.. If Vial really is that big of a problem, why don't just play Engineered Explosives?? This can actually get you x > 1 for ones and doesn't suck later in the game + is better against a wide variety of other stuff. It also dodges MMS pretty nice. The fact that it doesn't counter Duress & Thoughtseize doesn't botter me. This deck is very resilient against discard. It is not that good against top but you can always hit their Counterbalance with it before playing your own (blowing up a goyf in the progress). It is much worse against 1st turn Lacky though (when on the draw) but for that you have your Swords anyway. And of course it gives you maindeck outs against Empty the Warrens. If you would go the EE route you also have to make some curve adjustments of course and swap out Kor Haven for Academy Ruins.
EDIT2 :: Or Powder Keg? It has CC2 and even blows up animated Mutavaults. Hmm.. I know what I'm going to test in the Predict slot.. :p
Last edited by melie; 05-30-2011 at 09:07 AM.
Powder Keg is too limited and janky. Use Ratchet Bomb if you are going to test anything. Anyways, these things also risk blowing up you own Tops and Counterbalances, hence why they are not played.
You are right about Ratchet Bomb beëing better. I totally blanked out on that one (haven't played 1 game of standard since Time Spiral). But I'm not that sure about your statement of them being to limited and janky when you talk purely in the context of destroying 1CC drops. I'm going to test it out this week and let you all know.
By the way, somebody who blows up his own Top with a Ratchet Bomb or Powder Keg should probably take up Pokémon..
lol true, but there are situations where blowing up 1cmc spells and being forced to hide the top can leave you open for them to play spells when you could have countered them. Also, you can't ever do cmc 2 or 3, less you hit your own stuff.
On a different matter, Ensnaring Bridge is stone cold nuts versus Merfolk. MMS and Cursecatcher can't touch it, which forces them to either force it or be screwed.
Edit: Or Daze it, but many lists are not even running Daze anymore.
Last edited by DragoFireheart; 05-30-2011 at 02:42 PM.
This is my currently list including Mental Misstep. I´ve tested this version against friends with different decks and played a small tournament with 16 players (finished in second position). I know that isn´t very intensive testing, though I hope to get some constructive feedback
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
6 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins / 1 Marsh Flats
(-20-)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Engineered Eplosives
3 Vedalken Shackles
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
(-41-)
20 lands: So far 20 lands are fine for me. Brainstorm, Top and Predict help finding lands. I prefer flexibility / a wide range of cards and accept that sometimes I am lower on lands comparing to 21 lands. Maybe dependent on further testing I´ll add one land again.
Mental Misstep: I´ve read arguments pro and versus MM in best friends. According to my experience it´s a strong card improving the deck. In earIy game I could counter spells that Counterspell couldn´t and would be annoying like Mongoose, Stifle, Xantid Swarm…Before I´ve played Spell Pierce for MM which were also strong in my testing.
Ensnaring Bridge: could steal some games (versus Merfolk, Canadian, Reanimator). This is a card that isn´t expected and was preboard sometimes very strong. It´s easy to cast unlike Moat or Humility.
Engineered Explosives: I like the flexibility of the Swiss Knife and the possibility to generate card advantage. Moreover I frequently play against decks including Mongoose, Mother of Runes, Etched Champion, Vial.
Sideboard: is changing a lot. Currently I like Perish because of rising gw Maverick, Bant and *****. Meddling Mage is still amazing. Mostly I play 4 Mages^^
What do you think of my current version? Any suggestions or dislikes?
What would you play in sideboard against Landstill? In my meta the uw(x) version is more present than the version with Pernicious Deeds ;-)
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Tundra
5 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
2 [MR] Island (2)
1 [NE] Kor Haven
// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [FNM] Counterspell
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [NE] Daze
2 [GTW] Path to Exile
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
I've been having some success with this list as of lately. As you can see its pretty standard except for the 3 dazes instead of predict and of course the sideboard.
I'll start by explaining the dazes: The reason I think daze is warranted is simply because of mental misstep. Despite the author of this deck opinion about MM, I do think it hurts this deck quite a lot. Daze fills the same role as the plentiful of removal in this deck; it acts as protection for you to establish your early game. The plan was to include mental misstep in the maindeck for the same purpose but then the 2cc count drops too low. I know this deck is mana hungry, but between running only 1 colorless land and no wasteland at all, I do think this deck can handle daze.
I also think daze is a good option considering the rise of stoneblade decks. They have a very tight mana base and if we survive the aggro-aspect of their deck, we should be able to out-controll them with o-rings/ctop.
I dont think this deck is too hurt by excluding predict. Predict was probably the weakest slot and in my opinion it acts primarily (but not exclusively) as a win-more card.
I realize all my experiences are anecdotal and I haven't actually provided any concrete results. I really enjoy this deck though and I concede to the fact that my post is a rather obvious attempt at bumping this thread :P. I do think daze offers new ways of playing this deck and further strenghtes the early game which remains ever so important in legacy. Feel free to join the discussion either by praising or raising my deck!
N.B: sideboard is pretty much centered on my local meta which is infested with aggro such as goblins/zoo/folk.
For me, I've been liking predict the more I use it. The card advantage, fresh three for top, and more importantly, finding that solution when you needed it most. Looks lucky at times, yes...but it's thanks to Predict it increases my chances.
@Jack
Your aggro-filled meta may be the very reason why Daze has been working for you, which is probably the right choice.
For my games, I've been constantly looking at stabilizing my manabase first, so I probably won't use it for this type of deck. Predict to help ensure I have answers in hand seems more right.
I haven't posted in here in a while, and while I posted my new U/W Control list in the Blade Control thread, it's completely different that the decklists being discussed there. I posted this in the SFM CounterTop thread in N&D, but that thread has no traffic whatsoever.
Anyway, I've upgraded from Superfriends to The Justice League:
U/W The Justice League
// Lands (21)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [R] Tundra
7 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
// Creatures (4)
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
// Spells (35)
2 [NPH] Batterskull
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [IA] Counterspell
3 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 2 [TE] Humility
SB: 2 [6E] Wrath of God
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
The deck now fits Mental Misstep. Since the deck now has to worry about 1cc spot removal spells hitting SFM, there are more uses for it than in the older list. Protecting my own Tops and StP's against Misstep is good. With less spot removal, it also helps handle Lackey and Nacatl. And of course, it hits opposing Top's, and Vial (public enemy #1).
SFM/Batterskull gives the deck an improved matchup against Merfolk, and to a lesser extent, Goblins. Considering these were the two most difficult matchups before, I feel like SFM/Batterskull is an improvement overall. The package can be easily boarded out for more removal against decks like G/W Maverick and such.
SFM itself has replaced the Predicts, since it also provides +1 CA, and the Missteps and Batterskulls replaced some removal.
@Hanni
Interesting. Adding more stuff that are reusable seems like a good upgrade...and added win condition too.
You've gone down to 21 lands though, any impact on manabase consistency?
Also, when relying on SFM/Batterskull, did shackles become less useful in the deck?
I was still getting flooded with lands in the midgame fairly often, and I needed an extra spot (and I don't play 61 card decks), so I cut a land. No significant issues because of this at all. The fact that this deck has an incredibly stable manabase, i.e is very rarely set back by Wasteland, the fact this deck can dig for lands every turn via Top, and the fact that this deck is not nearly as mana hungry as oldschool control decks, makes 21 feel perfect to me.
Most lands the deck really needs is 6 to drop a Planeswalker and hold Counterspell mana open. I guess you could say 7, so it can hardcast a Batterskull with Counterspell mana open, but that's alot less frequent. More lands doesn't hurt, but this deck does want to draw business, too.
Great work! Hope we can get good tourney results to share here.
Mental Misstep is gone in Legacy land...time to adjust decks again
Hows this on this deck with the Stoneforge package?
Manabase:
7 Island
2 Plains
1 Kor Haven
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Drop (13):
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
2 Drop (11):
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
3 Drops (5):
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Drops (4):
2 Jace 2.0
2 Elspeth 1.0
5 Drops (5):
4x Force of Will
1x Batterskull
The curve is maintained (basically swapping 1cc for a 5cc) and I think we are okay with cutting
-1 Path
-1 Shackles
-3 Predict
for the Stoneforge Package. Shackles is used for Vial decks, which Batterskull answers. Predict can be cut as Hanni discussed above. Sword of F&F is best for this deck, which is VERY mana hungry. Speaking of mana hungry, I kept the land count at 22 because we need every single land drop we need.
Then I cut the Orings for Cliques to keep the FOW blue count at 19 and our bodies already turn on the opponent's removal anyway.
Sideboard is to be worked on later
Okay did some playtesting with my above list and the maindeck is quite solid. Not been having many problems.
Countertop just beats Storm, Batterskull and removal and Shackles destroys aggro once I am stabilised.
I'm thinking of the following for my sideboard:
1 Path to Exile
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Aura of Silence
3 Peacekeeper
4 Meddling Mage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Surgical Extraction
The Sb is mostly designed to deal with my most problematic matchups - Merfolk (Jitte, Peacekeepers, Path), Show and Tell (Meddling Mage) and Dredge (GT hate).
I know DragoFireheart has discussed the red splash in his Counterblade Thread in N&D. I agree that REB and lavamancers are fantastic but not necessary. I believe that Meddling Mage and if required, Pierces, are sufficient to beat Show and Tell. The Lavamancers DO help against Merfolk though but the problem is - a basic Mountain is needed in the Side, eating up precious slots. More testing with the red splash is required
A stable manabase is one of this deck's strengths. Right now I'm more comfortable with 2 colors (UW), and sticking to a 22-land setup.
The whole point of transforming from Superfriends (just the Planeswalkers) to The Justice League (Planeswalkers + SFM) was to further improve the Merfolk matchup.
Before SFM, the Merfolk matchup was a toss-up preboard depending on the draw (if I hit enough removal to get into a Shackles in time), and good postboard because of Peacekeeper in addition to Shackles.
With SFM, the Merfolk matchup became quite favorable (both pre and postboard). 4/2 SFM/Batterskull is incredibly strong against Merfolk, and the deck still has 3 Shackles.
If you're having problems with Merfolk, running more Peacekeeper's postboard is going to be more effective than splashing Red for Grim Lavamancer. Manabase stability is just as important in the Merfolk matchup as having enough removal.
As far as SNT decks are concerned, the matchup is not as bad as people seem to think. Postboard, Meddling Mage is really good against them, as is upping the 3cc spell count for Counterbalance. There's really no need to bring in Red for Pyroblast when Meddling Mage (and Spell Pierce's if you're meta has alot of SNT) is sufficient, without going into a third color.
I switched to a 21 land setup without the Kor Haven a while ago and it's been working beautifully.A stable manabase is one of this deck's strengths. Right now I'm more comfortable with 2 colors (UW), and sticking to a 22-land setup.
Also, for what it's worth, The Justice League IS CounterBlade, except I haven't gotten around to retweaking the deck without Mental Misstep. The loss of Mental Misstep hurts a little, but won't change the fundamental gameplan any. I've been extremely busy with work and school lately so I haven't had time for Magic, and I likely won't have time until this semester is over. Calculus and Statistics give an assload of homework. =/
- So should further discussion be held here or held at my CounterBlade topic?
The loss of Mental Misstep is a blessing and a curse. It's a bit harder to protect SFM, but in return our removal becomes much harder to stop. I think overall in this sort of deck it's a gain. I also like the idea of only having to use two colors: mana stability is important as we need mana to make SFM and CBT function properly and cast our bombs.
Up to you, but I won't be able to contribute much either way.- So should further discussion be held here or held at my CounterBlade topic?
The loss of Mental Misstep is a blessing and a curse. It's a bit harder to protect SFM, but in return our removal becomes much harder to stop. I think overall in this sort of deck it's a gain. I also like the idea of only having to use two colors: mana stability is important as we need mana to make SFM and CBT function properly and cast our bombs.
No Mental Misstep means our Top's will be resolving more frequently, which is alot more important than losing SFM to removal. Losing SFM to removal is still +1 CA, and Top is the best card in the deck that we absolutely want to resolve ASAP.
As far as our removal being harder to stop... that's relevant, but not nearly as much as resolving Top.
Also, without Mental Misstep, losing the ability to answer a turn 1 Vial without the CDA of FoW is a big loss, but this deck should still have a good Merfolk matchup. The Goblins matchup becomes more difficult though (was already an iffy matchup), so that's something that will definitely need addressed in the sideboard.
As far as the color splash goes, I'm sticking by U/W. All the tools necessary to handle the format are in those colors, and the stable manabase is what truly sets this deck apart from all of the other manland and multicolor control decks out there.
I haven't tested enough against Goblins with my list (found above). However, I can imagine the matchup to be quite difficult - Goblins cares not for the Countertop lock and Batterskull only slows them down.
Some possible sideboard cards are:
Blue Elemental Blast
Moat
Sphere of Law (which I think is better than Moat but way more narrow)
Ghostly Prison (better than Propaganda as it does not get hit by REB)
As for further discussion of the CounterBlade/Countertop Walker archetype - maybe this is for the mods to decide, I do not mind discussing in either thread too.
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