After a haul of playing non-combo competitively and going to time every round (go go Blade Mirrors), I've sleeved up ANT again.
I'm on the old stock list (2Grim/4Duress/3Sieze) with the changes of -1 IGG +1 PiF (no Volcanic/Badlands) and it seems to be doing well and I haven't hit a situation where I felt a R producing land would have mattered.
It seems Ari is suggesting a white splash main, but what about the old G splash in the board? Trash now? Autumns Veil / Swarm not doing it? Chants are pretty great against spell snares and Reanimates, but is it worth a Maindeck manabase change? I was always a bit more worried about Clique than the counters anyways (which chant doesn't stop either) but again I haven't played more than 2 or 3 games since re-sleeving.
I suppose I should get back to testing, but just thinking on paper here.
Swim, Bike, Run, MTG
Not to mention Grim Tutor puts you in a position whereby Force of Will becomes their only functional hard counter (excluding Mindbreak Trap/Flusterstorm) since their Spell Snares become dead.Originally Posted by AriLax
I wrote this a while back when I was keeping a blog on learning to play the deck. The context was right after Past in Flames was spoiled when there was mass discussion of adding red to the deck (namely Burning Wish and Rite of Flame).
Burning Wish vs Grim Tutor
Along with the red mana comes the thought of adding Burning Wish and/or Rite of Flame to the deck; akin to what has been called the TNT build on The Source. Again, I've looked over this build and I'm still convinced that ANT is preferable. First, on Burning Wish. In order for Burning Wish to be effective, you either have to put a copy of Infernal Tutor in the sideboard or you have to have two tutor effects in hand when you go off.
Lets look at the first situation; one Infernal Tutor in the sideboard.
First, even if you have a Past in Flames in the maindeck, you're more likely to have a Burning Wish in hand. If you have Burning Wish in hand without an additional tutor, you'll likely have to wish for Infernal Tutor, then cast Infernal Tutor for Past in Flames for a total cost of 5RRB (8) mana. If you're playing a traditional ANT list with Grim Tutor and a splash for Past in Flames, then you only need 4RBB (7) mana to go off. You can also cast Ill-Gotten Gains for 3BBBB (7) or Ad Nauseam for 4BBBB (8). Casting Grim Tutor into Ill-Gotten Gains or Grim Tutor into Past in Flames will cost one less mana than Burning Wish into Infernal Tutor into Past in Flames/Ill-Gotten Gains. One mana may not seem like a lot, but that's the difference between Cursecatcher and/or Daze ruining your day. If you have to play around Spell Pierce, the math becomes worse with the Burning Wish mana necessary at ten while Grim Tutor is at nine. This analysis does not take into consideration the potential mana issues one can run into with not having enough of one color to effectively cast the necessary cards to win. The extra card (Burning Wish into Infernal Tutor) plus the extra two mana is a reason why most Burning Wish Storm decks would likely cast Burning Wish into Diminishing Returns. Its true that casting Burning Wish for Ill-Gotten Gains or Past in Flames is cheaper than Grim Tutor, but it also assumes you have an Infernal Tutor or second Burning Wish in hand to tutor for the win since Burning Wish removes itself from the game and it doesn't change the math since you'll have to cast the second tutor eventually.
Looking at the other side of the TNT build which has four Infernal Tutors in the maindeck. Under these circumstances, one can Burning Wish for a Past in Flames in the sideboard which lets you.... do nothing. Well, at least nothing unless you have an additional tutor effect in hand or in the graveyard. Burning Wish, while offering more "utility", requires you to have an additional card in hand (Infernal Tutor or an additional Burning Wish) in order to win when you cast it.
Burning Wish in a Storm deck can be a powerful tool. Proponents argue that Burning Wish means you have seven to eight tutors maindeck as opposed to the four to six that ANT builds have. This is a defensible point since great density means a higher likelihood of finding it. Burning Wish also costs less than Grim Tutor (both in terms of casting cost and monetary value). From a casting cost perspective, it allows these decks to be faster which is the reason to prefer TNT (or TES) to ANT. For example, it gives the decks access to Empty the Warrens; some decks just can't compete with a belcher imitation putting 12 - 14 goblins into play on turn one/two. I won't argue that Burning Wish allows the deck to be faster in terms of going off via Empty the Warrens. Burning Wish also avoids you're deck getting completely blown out by a Surgical Extraction on your win condition or Engine. However, Burning Wish also means the conditions under which the deck goes off are much less stable and/or require more work to set up. Typically, hands that use Burning Wish to go off involve casting Diminishing Returns which is basically spinning the wheel. The success rate of Diminishing returns is conditional on having a certain combinations of mana floating and requires you to generate two blue mana. Any other application of Burning Wish will mean you either have to take an unnecessary step of wishing for Internal Tutor or you would need to cast Burning Wish for Past in Flames with an Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish in hand or in the graveyard.
Grim Tutor also allows you to find and cast a Storm engine without the need of being Hellbent. While this can also be true of Burning Wish, the same limitations discussed above still apply.
I ran a list very similar to the one you're describing with Past in Flames. I originally had no red mana producing lands and opted to add one Volcanic Island (cutting one Island). The reason was if I went off using Lotus Petal for Red Mana, there were situations when I wanted to grab an extra Red mana to flashback Past in Flames mid combo. LED works fine, but having 8 sources available (4 LED/Petal) vs 19 (4 LED/Petal + 10 Fetchlands + 1 Volcanic Island) seemed better. I've also found the notions of a Stilfe/Wasteland/Daze metagame to strengthen the case for a two color mana base (which is why I don't find the White splash to be that strong). However, in the case of Past in Flames, its not so much that you "need it", rather its nice to have access to it if you do need it.
Clique is less of an issue when you can press early because of Chant. You no longer have to just hang out. Also, beating Clique is reasonable without actually casting a hate card assuming you plan for it.
Swarm I'm not a fan of. It is obviously better than Chant vs. Daze, but it is worse against your opponent having anything that interacts with the board (ie. Bolt) and the ability to just draw Chant is really nice. Also, I often cast Chant off a Lotus Petal, which is much worse with a Swarm. On that topic, Chant adds Storm.
What about Veil? I can see the problem with swarm dying to most stuff (albeit I think tempo and the control decks are likely to board it out g2) but the actual Storm count is a bit less of an issue with PiF than it is/was with IGG.
Clique you can indeed play around but depending on the Opponents skill using the card it can be really tough without a handy brainstorm
Veil is close to chant, but I suppose if you aren't for Swarm then there isn't really any other draw to green (maybe Rev. Silence I suppose)
Albeit not exactly the same, there are some times playing TES when I just wish my chant effects just let me know what my opponent was up to and how much time I had to set up. That and I really dislike adding another color to the main (PiF excluded I guess)
Swim, Bike, Run, MTG
Incase you didn't read my report, here is my list.
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Infernal Tutor
2 Preordain
3 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
3 Duress
4 Ponder
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
Sideboard
2 Wipe Away
2 Pyroblast
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Silent Departure
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Duress
1 Grapeshot
1 Shattering Spree
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Thoughtseize
1 Past in Flames
Changes I'm going to make include -1 Wipe Away +1 Empty -1 Island +1 Fetch or just switching it out for TES (which is the most likely thing to happen).
Feel free to ask questions.
I'm trying to build this deck but don't have access to any lion's eye diamonds at the moment. Is it still workable, and what should I do if it is?
(I also don't have any Grim Tutors)
I am sorry but I don't think this type of combo Deck is viable without LED(in a competitive environment)
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
Kpyolysis
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...n-Flames-Combo
not sure its viable
Liam,
It's a neat build. I did some goldfishing with it last night and really liked it. Somehow it felt smoother than TES and definetly faster and more consistent than ANT. But I'm curious about actual matchups.
With this list you are sacrificing the basic land stability of ANT and not utilizing the Orim's Chant the way TES does. Also I can see graveyard hate becoming a problem in the post sideboard games. How were the games overall, why would you consider switching to TES?
Edit: About sacrificing basic land stability...Yes you have basic lands in your list but you also have a third color. I feel it needs to lean on dual lands more.
....
.....
No.
The basics issue hasn't really been one. Just hold your fetches as long as possible.
The sb games are usually not affected by their gravehate (if they have it, just Ad Nauseam or Tutor chain).
The reason I wanna go back to TES is that I just really like that deck, it is definitely one of my favourites.
When it comes to stretching your budget, there are a lot of things that might be tolerable--not running Goyfs, Force of Wills, Wastelands, duals, Candelabras, Tabernacles, Moats, etc. Your deck becomes very much suboptimal, but it still functions at some level.
Running storm combo without Lion's Eye Diamond is probably the most crippling "budget substitution" you can make in any Legacy deck I can think of.
Liam,
How was blast out of the board?
Swim, Bike, Run, MTG
I'm curious to hear the reasoning of Liam and others for their inclusion of Silent Departure as a Burning Wish target. I'm having a heard time coming up with anything really great to do with a Silent Departure (that isn't accomplished by something else) that's going to be relevant often enough to justify the sideboard slot.
EDIT: Also, are people interested in splitting discussion of TNT into its own thread?
"I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
Founding member of Team Scrubbad: Legacy Legends
Ari,
Have you had any luck tuning the ETW package since the KC open?
Could you see moving to rite in flame to support warrens and maybe past in flames while keeping grim over burning wish?
What plan do you play against reanimator, chant or empty?
Iona on black.
Some highlights from a 4-round local event, playing something close to Liam's list. (No Rite of Flames, two Chrome Moxes, Gitaxian Probe/Therapy and Duress for disruption.)
R1 Bye.
R2 Elves: In the first game, I start by taking two Elvish Archdruids from him via Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy on turn one. My kill is Dark Ritual > Cabal Ritual > Burning Wish + LED > Past in Flames. He takes the second game after I run blind into a Mindbreak Trap. Game three, he sticks a Thorn. I have to Wish for Meltdown. The following turn, I need to draw any mana source in order to Meltdown his Thorn and go off. I get there, and win via Ad Nauseam.
R3 UR Tempo/Stiflenought: In the first game, my opponent mulligans to four. I had kept a very disruption-heavy hand, so it takes me a while to put together sufficient material. He never really manages to develop his mana though, luckily for me. I think he lost with a single Island in play after having only a Wasteland for many turns. He takes game two. I wrote down his hand at some point, which included Stifle, Daze, Jace, Clique, and SCM. I couldn't get through that level of disruption, and lose to Delver beats. I lose game three as well, though my notes indicate that I could have killed him on the last turn through a Force if I had access to one more mana. I would have had to let Past in Flames be countered, and then flash it back to kill him.
R4 Deadguy Ale: He Hymns me on the first turn of our match. I recover and kill him, despite having an LED Vindicated at some point. He Hymns me to death in game two and I never find a way to clear away the Trap in his hand. I play poorly in the third game, and get Hymned to death again. Not sure if I could have won that one, though.
Lost every die roll on the night, except the one in WER that gave me a round one bye.
"I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
Founding member of Team Scrubbad: Legacy Legends
To be honest. Build belcher. Its more playable without lion's eye diamond. After doing well with that deck you should be able to build up cash/credit/trade bait to get the cards you need for ant.
Plan is the same, but I like it against RUG style decks that have Daze + Spell Snare. -2 Grim, -1 AdN, -1 IGG, -1 Plains, -3 Chant, +3 Discard, +1 Volc, +4 Empty. Reanimator you are actually fine against with just Chants.
I don't see Rite of Flaming just yet though. You choose 2 of fetch lands, Chant, and Rite/Wish and I like Chant + fetch now.
yes please, though I think Liam created his own thread a while ago (like several months ago) which got merged with this one.
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