This is very hard to believe or you are just very lucky. My group playtests Legacy religiously (obviously with SB...), and Maverick just continues to crush UW on the reg. Do you play against the superior red Maverick lists? Are they playing Choke, Teeg, and Thrun? Are they competent Magic players? I find your statement a little shocking... Wrath is really the only good gameplan, and it isn't even that great when their gameplan turns into playing Mother + Teeg and Choke all backed by Pyroblasts. Not to mention a good player is not going to over-commit post SB.Originally Posted by chags
Has anyone tried a transformative board into something like the U/W Countertop Superfriends list?
Sometimes Stoneforge isn't worth leaving in, but main-decking Hawks hardly seems like a good alternative. Stoneforge is worst against removal-heavy aggro, where counterbalance helps play the control role much better.
I'm about to start testing something like this:
MD
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra (I only have 3; would add 4th for a basic or Factory)
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Riptide Lab
7 Island
2 Plains
=24 Land
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 V Clique
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 JTMS
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB
3 Counterbalance
3 SDT
2 Path to Exile
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Wrath of God
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
Siding out -4 SFM, -1 Batterskull, -1 Sword, +3 CB, +3 SDT gives a "base" curve (before further sboarding) of:
1: 16
2: 10
3: 2 (not including 2 Shackles, 1 Ring, which could likely come in)
4: 4
5: 4
Siding this way basically blanks their removal for game 2 (and open up either option for game 3), and provides a (potentially) more Card-Advantageous plan against removal-heavy aggro than siding out SFM, then 1-for-1ing guys with removal and counters until you think you can defend Jace to win.
The 2 specific issues I'm worried about (besides, obviously, doing too much or having crippled the sideboard) are:
1. Tight on spots, the Counterbalance curve is a bit awkward at the 2 and 3 slots.
2. Slow clock in countertop mode (bad against combo and staying under time).
Last edited by anwei; 01-24-2012 at 03:16 AM.
Or... you could just play CB-top in the blade shell like I've been doing since even before GP Amsterdam :)
CB@1 makes up for the lack of mental misstep protecting stoneforge mystic.
CREATURES (8)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Counterbalance
INSTANTS (16)
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
PLANESWALKERS (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
ARTIFACTS (6)
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Batterskull
LANDS (23)
2 Plains
3 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
SIDEBOARD
2 Wrath of God
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disenchant
1 Crucible of Worlds
The problem with this transformative build is that your opponent is probably going to side in artifact removal spells. You are taking out 2 equipments and in comes 3-6 artifacts + enchantments. This means you are actually lowering the chance of disenchant/krosan grip being a dead card.
I like that blened Blade-Counter-Top deck idea and I think that although it does give up a couple things here and there, it also adds a lot in other match-ups.
Thanks for sharing and I for one will test it out before I say anything else about it.
I should have said that the second assumption behind doing this (besides "sometimes stoneforge isn't right but dropping it entirely isn't either") is that playing both together is pretty bad - both halves are pretty mana intensive and their "synergy" is slow - especially if you're pausing your top, cb, sfm, batterskull "plan A" to actually remove/counter opposing threats. Goyf is simply better with CB.
I realize this (it was almost "problem #3"). These slots are often Ancient Grudge, which is still not back-breaking (Top is a bad target, Bridge/Shackles are part of a pretty-full anti-creature suite), and can be addressed by floating CB@2 if it's up. Many Aggro match-ups are pretty good as-is. Counterbalance protects itself (at least) better than Batterskull does, and again, losing it is not as disruptive to that part of the plan as losing Batterskull can be (though it would def. not be welcome in, say, the mirror).
The uwr blade list doesn't have a terrible matchup vs maverick. I'm now 4-2 against it in tournaments with my 2nd loss including 2 mulligans to five. I run main deck bolts and have wraths as well as 4 path to exiles in the board. I side out my snares and leave in my force of will almost exclusively to counter choke. And yes half of the matchups were against the punishing fire lists.
Comparing goyf and stoneforge; I think untapping with stoneforge is a bonus... I allways count on either dying. So in that regard I rather have a Batterskull in hand than nothing. That's the reason why I prefer 2 skulls over fancy swords (I've tested them too).
You need a manabase full of basics (and tops!) but skull turn 5 happens most games. I do miss wasteland a bit though and should probably fit them in there again. A splash is certainly doable but Im a consistency junkie so that's why im strictly 2 colors / 22 lands.
It's solid against most decks but roll over and dies to any blue deck with pyroblasts and punishing fire :/
Yes I play against competent players (two out of the three tournaments were Jupiter NELC legacy events which are well known for the skill level they attract in the northeast). With 10 removal spells post board, 9 of which can be recurred with snapcaster, I don't find it hard to answer their threats. I also play 2 Elspeth main as well as jitte as my second equipment. Disenchants help this match quite a bit too, and surgical answers their punishing fire. I generally side out my jaces and some counter magic and board in answers, this also makes their pyroblasts a lot worse. For Reference:
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Snapcaster mage
2x Vendilion Clique
3x Force of will
4x Brainstorm
3x Spellsnare
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Lightning Bolt
2x Counterspell
1x Manaleak
2x Jace the Mind Sculptor
2x Elspeth, Knight errant
1x Umezawa's jitte
1x Batterskull
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
1x Mountain
3x Island
2x Plains
4x Flooded Strand
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Wasteland
1x Riptide laboratory
1x Karakas
SB:
2x Disenchant
2x Wrath of God
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Spell Pierce
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Force of Will
1x Batterskull
2x Pyroblast
SB plan: -3 Fow, -2 JTMS, -2 Counterspell, -1 Mana Leak--+2 Wrath of God, +1 Engineered Explosives, +2 Disenchant, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Crucible of Worlds
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
I never thought that Disenchant is worth a SB slot. If you want to beat the mirror, splash red (like you already do) and board in blast effects (at least 4). Against Maverick, I think we are better off playing Spell Pierce. My list has two of them main so I don't need to bring them in, but they handle everything that Disenchant is there for: Equipments (If you keep them off their SFM, which should be easy with Snares and Removals), Choke, Sylvan Library. On top of that, it handles the early GSZ (even the midgame ones when they go for bigger creatures) and Elspeth, which we are cold to (apart from legend ruling her). The creatures can all be handled with removal, so we need things that take care of their non-creature spells. Also, I think boarding out Jace is wrong. Apart from attacking, Maverick has no way of dealing with Jace. Also, the games tend to be 1-for-1 trades a lot, until both are out of gas (even more so postboard). That's where Jace comes in and re-fills your hand. If you untap with him, it should be over.
However, Maverick will always be one of the toughest Matchups for BladeControl. If your meta is full of Maverick, you will probably do better playing combo.
And for people playing without Wasteland: How do you beat Maze of Ith or Grove of the Burnwillows ? Wasteland is just so important imo, not for mana screwing the opponent like stifle/daze/wasteland builds tend to do, but for said utitily lands.
I'm not so sure about Spell Pierce against Maverick as they play less than 10 non-creatures spells. I mean, sure it will counter some very important spells every now and then but i feel like it will be useless very fast as it's a very poor topdeck in late game and that it's not that hard to play around to resolve key spells.
Nobody has an opinion about klaus' Bladeless Caw Go list ?
Maverick tends to board out some creatures or equipment to bring in 2-3 Choke, so the amount of spells typically stay constant. Spell Pierce is fine against GSZ, but very rarely would Choke be cast unless Stoneblade player is nearly tapped out.
Having a higher than usual basic land count helps much more against the Wasteland plan in normal gameplay too.
RE: klaus' CawGo list
I am intrigued, but not sure if beatdown with a bunch of 1/1's is going to be a faster clock than just going with the Faerie route. I do agree that Card Quality is increased tremendously by recycling Squadron Hawks.
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Hey guys,
My meta my meta is stocked with punishing maverick atm. Im looking for a maindeck solution. Any suggestions?
How about Back to Basics? They usually have only 1 basic land
I don't have any MD suggestions (although if you can get along w/o depending on duals/manlands B2B sounds good).
I'm curious though what you've been siding in. I would think Surgical Extraction is a no-brainier: rid yourself of Punishing Fire (or Life from the Loan; though that's a singleton I think, and probably best left to Purify the Grave, if you also side that in). If you've tried that, I'm interested in your experience with it.
Storm Combo and Show and Tell are probably Maverick's weakest matches. Something like BUG Control or Nic Fit might be alright too. You just need to have a lot of early defensive, but Pernicious Deed is sort of a house and sb Extirpate can answer Punishing Fire.
EDIT: Sorry had the What Should I Play In My Metagame thread open in another tab and misposted.
I think the Red splash for extra MD removal in the form of Lightning Bolt helps, you could try and flex in a Fire//Ice it can be good at hitting Scryb Ranger or Mother of Runes and a Noble Hierarch - it atleast gives you a way to gain some tempo/CA over them. Maverick plays too many threats to go 1 for 1 indefinitely, post SB Wrath of God is a total beating, if your meta has a lot of agro I'd run 3. Having a lot of basics and foregoing Mishra's Factory/Mutavault helps ensure that you can develop your mana with out Knight of the Reliquary chaining Wastelands at you. I think the manlands are pretty underwhelming in the current metagame, most DTBs are running removal (and Wastelands for that matter) and having your lands shot out from under you is pretty backbreaking.
Again sorry for the original misguided response.
Last edited by from Cairo; 01-08-2012 at 10:43 PM. Reason: errr... ummm...
I assumed that he was asking about what to play MD in a Stoneblade deck, not which deck archetype to play...
Red splash with Blood Moon
UW variants can run Crucible w/ Wasteland
Surgical Extraction is a bad idea against Punishing Fire as they can recur in response.
Maybe I've got the timing wrong, but can't you wait until they tap their Grove to give you life, and then extract in response to Punishing's trigger, before they can recur it?
Unless they have multiple Groves out (or the life gain is from something else, like an StP), they won't be able to trigger the ability again in response to Extraction, right?
I'm not a judge, but I'm pretty confident that's correct. With PFire's trigger on the stack you can Surgical it and they'd have to trigger it again (in response to Surgical) via another life gain effect to successfully return it to their hand.
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