I played the deck quite a lot, I know to play around hate, i know i can win without loam, the thing is you don't know whether they play the bad extirpate, and they snap-recur it half time they do and Chalice has to resolve first... I had no problem playing with ANT it and was around 50/50 lifetime, beating them was fun =)Originally Posted by Fuzzy
I mean you can't just play around everything all the time... I take Lands as the hardest deck possible one can choose for a tournament and it simply has passed the threshold when playing it competitively is enjoyable for me
Treasure Hunt is cool, but it's been determined pretty intensely that you really want to run as few nonartifact, nonland spells as possible in this deck, and Treasure Hunt would really be win-more a lot of the time.
Seismic Assault is a phenomenal card. In a different Loam deck. I haven't seen a competitive Lands deck run red in quite some time, and the triple cost is ridiculously prohibitive.
Reliquary Tower is win-more. If you've already developed the capability to multi-Dredge Loam in a turn, you probably don't need to do much more because you can mostly just dump your hand and draw a ton of cards thanks to Manabond/Exploration/Crucible/whatever. Plus, we really don't need to add any more colorless lands to the mix.
I agree with Fuzzy. Surgical Extraction is just a worse Extirpate, which, while damaging, is by no means a game-ender. The meta seems really good for the deck right now IMO.
Hey guys, been awhile since I've been on this thread. I to think this is a prime time to put lands into action. I plan on doing just that this Sunday in ATL. I've been going over some of the current list's and I can see how they've changed since I've last played this deck. I just have a few questions as to why.
1.) When did we start playing only 2 Manabonds and 4 Diamonds?
2.) Do we no longer run the Smokestack variant in our sides?
3.) I've debated running the Inkmoth/Kessig wolf run in my build and during play testing it has allowed the deck to get a quicker kill. Thoughts?
My current build:
4-Exploration
4-Manabond
4-Life from the Loam
3-Intuition
3-Mox Diamond
1-Ensaring Bridge
1-Engineered Explosives
1-Zuran Orb
1-Crucible of Worlds
3-Tranquil Thicket
1-Horizon Canopy
3-Tolaria West
4-Rishidan Port
4-Maze of Ith
4-Wasteland
1-Ghost Quarter
3-Tropical Island
1-Taiga
1-Forest
1-Misty Rainforest
1-Wooded Foothills
1-Windswept heath
1-Verdant Catacombs
1-The Tabernacle @ Pen Vale
1-Glacial Chasm
1-Academy Ruins
1-Karakas
1-Riftstone Portal
1-Inkmoth Nexus
1-Mishra's Factory
1-Kessig Wolf Run
1-Barbarian Ring
Thoughts and comments please. Thanks!
I've always been running 4 Diamonds. I don't need the full set of Manabonds with E-Tutor. And I've never felt the need for a "quicker kill," and definitely not enough to dilute the manabase with crappy red sources.
I just went 4-0 at a local tournament at Channel Fireball/Superstars running the following list:
Spells (24)
4x Exploration
4x Life from the Loam
4x Mox Diamond
3x Enlightened Tutor
2x Manabond
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Intuition
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Zuran Orb
Lands (36)
4x Maze of Ith
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
3x Tropical Island
3x Tolaria West
2x Tranquil Thicket
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Academy Ruins
1x Bayou
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Savannah
1x Mishra's Factory
1x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Karakas
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Cabal Pit
Sideboard (15)
4x Dark Confidant
2x Krosan Grip
2x Extirpate
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Smokestack
1x Tower of the Magistrate
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Phyrexian Revoker
I moved Smokestack to the side because I'm a) expecting a lot of combo decks when I go to play in SCG Los Angeles next weekend and b) because it hasn't been that necessary to have a finisher artifact maindeck. I moved Chalice of the Void main instead to test for tonight.
Tournament Report:
Match 1: Merfolk
Game 1 I get off to a phenomenal start with Exploration into Loam and some combination of fetches, Port, and Loam. I lay down a Maze of Ith and start the engine going, stalling him out pretty well. Unfortunately, the deck decides to crap out of me and I dig through 30 cards without seeing a single Thicket, Canopy, Tolaria, or another Maze, and 2 Rejeereys + 1 Lord of Atlantis beat down for exactly lethal. Game 2 he opens with Leyline of the Void, which I was not expecting in the slightest. I try my best to develop under it and end up with a Maze and an Explosives for 2, which I pop. I eventually resolve Ensnaring Bridge and he scoops. Game 3 I board in Krosan Grip for Leyline. I keep an awful hand of something like Crucible, Explosives, 2 duals, 2 Enlightened Tutor, and I draw into a third Enlightened Tutor. Things are looking pretty bad until I somehow stick Zuran Orb and E-Bridge. He claims he has an answer, so we play it out. I slowly play lands and gain back life; he can't attack. I eventually topdeck a K-Grip and blow up the Leyline and get the engine going. Turns out his answer was just Energy Flux anyway, haha.
(2-1) 1-0
Match 2: ANT
I'm a little less worried because I've been trying the maindeck Chalice, but it's still a bad matchup. I open a good hand without an E-Tutor, Tolaria, or Chalice, and start going. I hit E-Tutor on turn 3 and slam Chalice the same turn thanks to Tranquil Thicket. But it's no good, and she starts chaining Cabal Rituals and Iggy and kills me pretty easy. Game 2 I open a hand with both the sideboarded Canonist and Chalice, so I'm pretty confident, but she thinks she has a way to pull it off. I end up having completely useless topdecks under Chalice (2 Exploration, 2 E-Tutor) and she Slaughter Pacts the Canonist at 3 life. It's ok though, because I lay down the freshly topdecked Dark Confidant and beat in for the win. Game 3 I have a pretty bad hand again, but I eventually keep her off enough mana thanks to Waste and get a good clock of Canonist + Confidant going. I Tolaria West for Tormod's Crypt the turn before she's going to be able to go off if she kills Canonist again and nuke her graveyard to stop Iggy and Cabal Ritual from doing anything, and she scoops.
(2-1) 2-0
Match 3: Steel Aggro
It's a weird homebrew consisting of Dark Confidant, Vendilion Clique, Stoneforge, Etched Champion, Master of Etherium, Aether Vial, artifact lands, and a Port + Wasteland + Crucible engine of its own. Game 1 I just develop too fast with 2 Mazes and a lot of recurring Wastes and he can't play anything. Game 2, he gets going really fast and Extirpates Loam right at the right point. I get overwhelmed by 2 Bobs, 2 Etched Champion, and a Clique right before he kills himself with Bobs. Game 3 I stick a T2 Revoker naming Tormod's Crypt and proceed to kill him with that and a Bob - he drew into his full set of Crypts and almost no creature threats.
(2-1) 3-0
Match 4: Affinity
He clearly has no idea what I'm playing. I lay down an early Ensnaring Bridge after taking next to no damage and then have Tabernacle eat his entire team of 10+ guys. He tries to play it out because he doesn't understand what I'm doing so I eventually just Tar Pit him to death. Game 2 He tries to mull into Leyline and ends up going down to 4 cards without seeing one. I lead Manabond -> Loam + Chasm lock, and since he's Affinity, he loses.
(2-0) 4-0
I was pretty happy with how the deck performed, though I was expecting a lot more tempo-based builds. I had to get out of some really sticky spots and the deck did pretty much everything I wanted it to :)
So, I played in a small, 11 person tournament on Saturday (January 7th) and pretty much got destroyed by two decks: a) Bant with Snapcaster + Surgical Extraction (though I definitely could have played around the extration had I not been an idiot) and Knight of the Reliquary + Wasteland, b) U/W splash black pure control (tons of hard counters and mass removal that he sided out for enchantment removal and Surgical Extraction.
I definitely learned a hard lesson in playing around Surgical Extraction, though I now know how to play against it, so I think I'll be fine in the future (though I really like the idea of siding out Loam + Tranquil Thicket for Crucibles and Chalice of the Void against Snapcaster decks).
At any rate, the one card that completely dominated me in both decks was Jace, The Mind Sculptor. If they are able to get to four mana and resolve a Jace, is there anything that we can do to fight it? I tried recurring Engineered Explosives every turn with Academy Ruins, only to have it countered time and time again with the help of his infinite Brainstorming (until he was able to draw Surgical Extraction and put the kabosh on that), and it's hard for a Mishra's Factory to get through any creatures and Inkmoth Nexus can't keep up with the +2 fateseal ability. Thoughts?
Jace is the biggest reason I gave up on this deck about 6 months ago. The best thing I had to fight him was play creeping tar pit and barbarian ring maindeck(splashing red just odd mox). And purging need +second E.E. post board. I was playing with no factories and with MD smokestack. Even then It wad pretty tough without having intuition resolve with the jace on the stack.
Decks that don't interact with me are unfun.
Decks that counter my spells are unfun.
Decks that kill my monsters are unfun.
Decks that destroy my lands are unfun.
Decks that are faster than mine are unfun.
Decks that beat mine are unfun.
The only fun decks are ones that cast Craw Wurms on turn 6 and turn them sideways. Fox only, no items, final destination.
Creeping tar pit and celestial colonnade both do what you want against jace. Although ,the problem of snapcaster+surgical is much harder to deal with. The last event I played this deck in, I was surgicaled 5 times in one game against U/W because of snapcaster.
Creeping Tarpit does seem like a solid solution. I was trying out the Inkmoth Nexus + Kessig Wolfrun idea and it has been solid against everything BUT JTMS. I should have included a Creeping Tarpit in my 75 for sure (especially because I was running 3x Crop Rotation like the classic build). I'll give that a try this weekend.
Surgical Extraction can be a beating, for sure. I ran one maindeck Chalice of the Void, but never seemed to be able to nab it in time with Tolaria West. Perhaps I'll drop the 3x Crop Rotations for 3x Enlightened Tutor.
Also, has anybody ever tried Gifts Ungiven in this deck before?
For Jace, I think Treetop Village is good enough to kill him. It's like Tar Pit, but provides green. I know, I know, Batterskull in UWx Control is bad for this plan, but If he manages to set both and still had the Surgical for Explosives AND the counter for Pithing Needle, well, you would lose anyway. If it's still the first game, EE lock eventually will get there. It's not the greaaaat scenario ever, but there some solutions.
For Gifts, yes: It's just a worse Intuition. Don't waste your time.
Time for my tournament report from Star City Games: Los Angeles. I ran this list:
Spells(24)
4x Exploration
4x Life from the Loam
4x Mox Diamond
3x Enlightened Tutor
2x Manabond
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Smokestack
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Zuran Orb
Lands(37)
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
3x Tropical Island
3x Maze of Ith
3x Tolaria West
2x Tranquil Thicket
2x Mishra's Factory
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Academy Ruins
1x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Karakas
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Cabal Pit
Sideboard(15)
4x Dark Confidant
2x Krosan Grip
2x Extirpate
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Tower of the Magistrate
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Phyrexian Revoker
After testing with Chalice of the Void maindeck in place of Smokestack, I decided to switch it back to the original configuration due to the fact that Chalice is an abominable topdeck. This ended up being the right choice. A second Top replaced the singleton Intuition, as I was rarely drawing it anyway, and Top helps with Snapcaster + Surgical Extraction. Anyways, on to the report.
Match 1 - T.E.S vs. Liam Kane
Game 1, he opens with Underground Sea and passes. I have a hand with Loam but no accelerant, so I Waste his Sea and pass. I don't know what he's playing. He goes Volcanic Island, Ponder, go. I'm expecting a tempo hybrid or Storm at this point. I draw Exploration, drop it, and drop a pair of Lands including Port. He drops Gemstone Mine, and I know I'm fighting a losing battle. I try to keep mana denial up, but he draws into enough lands to storm me for millions with Past In Flames as well as Ad Nauseam. Game 2, I board in:
4 Dark Confidant
2 Extirpate
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Engineered Explosives
In other words, a metric fuckton of hate. It gets the job done, and he scoops under the back of Canonist, Chalice for 0, and recurring Wastes. Game 3 I mull to 6 and keep a hand with Bob and Tolaria West. I start applying pressure and manage to get him down a little bit before he starts going off - I wasn't able to lay down Chalice. He chains Rituals and Burning Wishes into Diminishing Returns....and whiffs. I have a couple more turns to answer him. My new hand gave me an E-Tutor, Manabond, Crypt, Extirpate, and 3 lands, but his Duresses rip away the Manabond and Tutor. I lay down Chalice for 0 and the Bob I just topdecked. He Ad Nauseams on his turn and goes to 5 life after drawing Chain of Vapor, the one card he needed. He Chains my Chalice and leads triple Dark Ritual into triple LED. I manage to Extirpate Infernal Tutor after he resolves it, but it's no use - the Burning Wish in his hand is going to stay there, and he's got a second Tendrils main. He storms me for 22. Turns out he's the best Storm player on the West Coast. Oh well - at least I was close, and lost against an already bad matchup.
(1-2) 0-1
Match 2 - UW Stoneblade
Game 1 I keep a promising hand and mana deny him for a while, but he's got tons and tons of counters for my recurring Loams and manages to resolve a Jace. I dig for Explosives, but he counters it and sticks an Elspeth, and I can't do anything about it. Game 2 he mulls twice and I stick Revoker naming Jace early before drawing into Bob, and he loses to two Wastes a turn even though he's got a Crucible. Game 3 he opens with Leyline. So that's why he mulled twice G2. Why are all the off-color decks running Leyline now? I know I can win through Leyline, but he boarded his removal back in, and Bob and Revoker eat it early. I have a Top, but he Extractions Wasteland and then resolves a Crucible, and he's got a Wasteland under it. I'm trying to dig for Bojuka Bog but I'm hitting nothing, and by the time he resolves Jace, I can't do anything about it. Talk about hate.
(1-2) 0-2
Match 3 - UW Stoneblade #2
So I'm officially in the bad bracket, but I'm trying to keep my head about me. And I proceed to beat the crap out of my next opponent. Game 1 I lead Manabond -> Wastelands and Ports and topdeck Loam the next turn. He's color screwed anyway and I barely see any of his deck before he scoops under a Ghost Quarter lock. Game 2 I'm doing more of the same, but he manages to Surgical both Wasteland and Loam, so I can't stop him from drawing all his lands. Tabernacle and triple Maze stop him from dealing any damage, but he exiled Revoker with Swords and I'm not drawing any Dark Confidants, so the game is taking forever. O-Rings eat Smokestack and Exploration. He sticks a Jace and gets it to 13. I have Tar Pit, but he's got white open and I have no more Wastes so I'm afraid of it getting exiled. I manage to MISE Engineered Explosives and stick it though, and the game ends soon after, as I blow it up at 4 and then at 3 to get my accelerant and Smokestack back. I wouldn't have lost anyways though, because I had Academy Ruins out and a Mox Diamond in my yard. Turns out my Bobs were all in the bottom 7 cards of my library.
(2-0) 1-2
Match 4 - UW Stoneblade #3 (WOO)
This one plays out similarly to the last one. He loses under recurring Wastes game 1 and under Bob beats 1 and 2. Batterskulls resolve, but Jaces die and eventually, Batterskull tokens do as well.
(2-0) 2-2
Match 4 - UWR Stoneblade
At this point, I'm just bored of playing Stoneblade matches, so I'm kind of aggravated when my opponent leads Flooded Strand, go. I deny his mana pretty heavily, but I've only got an accelerant - no Loam - and when I finally do hit it, he's got counters for every time, and I die to Clique and Snapcaster beats because he can pay for Tabernacle and I only have 2 Mazes. Game 2 I board in the usual Stoneblade package (4 Dark Confidant, 1 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Tower of the Magistrate, 2 Extirpate) plus COP: Red because I saw Grim Lavamancer. It starts well, but I Extirpate his Tundras and see a hand with FOUR Force of Wills. He counters all my Loams, and then starts pissing me off. If my next Loam resolves, I win. He Spell Snares. I tutor for Crucible. If it resolves, I win. He Brainstorms into Clique and Cliques it out of my hand. I dredge Loam. If I get it going, I win. It resolves and I get back a couple Wastes, but he topdecks Surgical Extraction and cripples me. He lays down a Lavamancer and a Jace and passes. Jace isn't worrying me that much right now, so I'm digging for COP: Red, but instead hit Smokestack. And he actually manages to outrace my Smokestack through a series of miraculous topdecks - Stoneforge into Batterskull, dump it at upkeep and sac both token and equipment, Jace into Land after drawing a creature, etc, etc, and he Grim Lavamancers me to death after I can't find COP. He went on to get 11th, but it still sucked, and was my only 0-2 of the day.
(0-2) 2-3
Match 6 - UW Stoneblade. My fifth CONSECUTIVE Stoneblade deck of the day. I guess all the Reanimator and Tempo and Dredge and Maverick I saw at the beginning of the day decided to avoid me. It's kind of favorable and all, but the whole reason I wanted to play Legacy was because Standard during Caw-Blade was pissing me off due to the lack of variety. Good job, game. Anyways, both games I develop early and have an aggressive plan with both Loam and Manabond. She insists on playing them both out for some reason and I end up slow rolling the hell out of her with triple Exploration, Crucible, and Zuran Orb. Game 2 I end up playing 3 Bobs and losing tons of life, but I don't really care because I gain 8 life a turn anyways. Ghost Quarter lock both games. Woot.
(2-0) 3-3
Match 7 - NO Bant.
Game 1, I think he's playing the Bant Maverick list I saw online a few weeks ago, so I waste as aggressively as possible. I keep him Ported and Wasted for a few turns before he starts to develop, but the whole thing takes a long time. He taps 4 mana and I'm expecting Jace with a cringe, but he slams Progenitus and passes. I'm fine, because I've got Tolaria West. I tutor Glacial Chasm and sit on it for enough turns to grab both Crucible and Loam in case of counters, and pass the turn at 2 life. He's digging for what I assume is Wasteland, but I get Tabernacle out and his dudes start dying. I Bojuka Bog him right before Progenitus dies, and only the big rainbow dude shuffles back in, so I take Game 1 in a length 43-minute match. Game 2 is over much quicker, as I resolve a Bob. He does manage to Natural Order, but it's Terastodon. It shoots down my Ensnaring Bridge and Exploration, but I hit another one off Top and tutor for Tabernacle to kill his 9/9 and one 3/3.
(2-0) 4-3
Match 8 - Combo Elves
Another bad matchup. At least there were only two combo decks today. Game 1 I stick Ensnaring Bridge T2, but he Summoner's Pacts for Viridian Shaman and nukes it. I get it back with Academy Ruins, but he Zeniths for Wirewood Symbiote and proceeds to again smash my Bridge, and then my face. G2 I bring in the normal Storm hate package and put him on a clock with two beaters, and then keep his two lands Ported. G3 is similar. He tries to aggro me out, actually - double Elvish Archdruid, but I keep enough Mazes going to eventually stop him from killing me and somehow manage to beat through his Elves.
(2-1) 5-3
I was ok with how the day went. Playing Storm Match 1 put me in a bad bracket though, and playing 5 Stoneblade decks in a row was just aggravating, especially since it's a fairly positive matchup unless your opponents lucksack on hate like my two Stoneblade losses did. I didn't misplay much at all though, and I guess I know how to play against Stoneblade even better now? I got 41st overall.
Cards that were bad:
Krosan Grip. I love it, but I didn't board it in once all day. I'm starting to realize that this is basically only for bouncing Leyline. I don't like running non-permanents in this deck that aren't Tutors, but I also don't know if I'd feel that good without the card. It's a slot worth reconsidering.
Cabal Pit. Yes, it's a black source for Confidant, but I only used it once all day - to kill a Stoneforge in a game I was already winning - so I think it's got to go. I'm probably going to bring Tower of the Magistrate in from the board since there is a ton of Stoneblade running around, and I have another black source in my recent addition Bojuka Bog. That will free up a sideboard slot for the new Grafdigger's Cage.
Everything else that I used was awesome. I loved having the 2/1 split of Horizon Canopy and cycle lands for utility with both Crucible and Loam and fixing. I was able to Loam 5 times in one turn in the first match against NO Bant, actually. I dumped 11 lands off Manabond XD. I didn't use Karakas very much. Going up from 1 Factory and down from 4 Mazes was fine. I rarely thought I needed another maze and the second Factory helped. Ensnaring Bridge was less perfect, but that's only because it's less than perfect against 7 of the 8 matches I played against (5 Stoneblade, 2 combo), and I would never drop it from the main.
So that was my tournament. I'll have two more reports from tournaments this week, and I hope you guys enjoy reading this - or at least, I hope this helps some guys who are looking to play the deck. Thanks!
Leyline of the Void is really strong when you can protect it with counters. There's simply higher risk involved when you can't hardcast it. This is also why Krosan Grip is in Lands' board. Trygon Predator used to be a house for me in Game 2, but there's so much removal these days that Krosan Grip is the go-to card.
@Malacoda: Congratz on your finish! Just one question: How was Zuran Orb main deck for you?
Anyway, Dark Ascension spoilers showed the best card any Lands player could ask: Grafdigger's Cage. I probably will never use it in my list (Tormod's does a better job, since it's transmutable) but because some advantages over other hates, maybe some people join the hype wagon and use it.
What would be better than a grave-hate who does NOTHING for us?
Thanks man! Zuran Orb maindeck has almost always been good. In the past, it's allowed me to gain life out of Storm range and has totally won the game against things like UR Snapburn. Managing to set it up with a Crucible and Exploration is GG most of the time. However, because of my matchups (2 combo, 5 Stoneblade, 1 NO), it and Ensnaring Bridge were both less good than they might have been. Every time I try to move Zuran Orb to the side, I regret it because I face aggro or Tempo or something.@Malacoda: Congratz on your finish! Just one question: How was Zuran Orb main deck for you?
Anyway, Dark Ascension spoilers showed the best card any Lands player could ask: Grafdigger's Cage. I probably will never use it in my list (Tormod's does a better job, since it's transmutable) but because some advantages over other hates, maybe some people join the hype wagon and use it.
What would be better than a grave-hate who does NOTHING for us?
I'll be running a singleton Cage in my board simply because it hoses Maverick, which is obviously a sketchy matchup assuming capable pilots.
I'm losing something here, HOW Cage hoses Maverick? GSZ, fine, and..?
Eh, "hoses" is too strong of a word. Just the GSZ part, but I think it's significant enough to warrant a board slot, especially since it can be boarded in against Storm running Past In Flames and any graveyard decks. Might not be good enough - we'll have to see when it's actually released.
The tutorable hoser for Maverick is Cursed Totem.
Here's to hoping everybody will play this new Cage instead of real hate
I was wondering if I was missing some tech against Scavenging Ooze. This is the card I've been having some trouble with lately, especially out of Explorer Rock as you really cannot realistically mana denial them - out of Maverick it is not too bad. Preboard most lists have EE as the only out (and even if you are running Barbarian Ring / Cabal Pit that will not work most of the time). Post board there is Cursed Totem and Pithing Needle both of which suck against a deck with Pernicious Deed. This leaves the clunky Oblivion Stone... And if they are on white, Sun Titan means you are totally done for.
Ideas?
In my experience, explorer rock is a pretty impossible matchup. They run too many basics and oozes for lands to do anything. Your best bet to stop ooze is to needle it and hope they don't have deed or pulse, which they always do. Against Maverick, you could maindeck a cursed totem or two to shut down their creaturebase.
On a sidenote, what do you guys think about boarding in torpor orb for the U/W matchup? I've found games two and three to be pretty difficult if they have extraction, since they can just waste and extract/snap extract your good lands, ignoring loam altogether. Torpor orb stops snapcaster(and every creature in the lists with spellstutter sprite and vendillion clique, and every creature but geist in the lists that run it). This limits them to one extraction usually, which is more than manageable.
I have only played against Explorer-Zenith once, but I managed to do ok. I'm running a maindeck Bojuka Bog, and while they're not graveyard based, they get a lot of value out of things like E-Witness for Maelstrom Pulse, and I've found that recurring that is a pretty solid way to keep the game winnable. I have two kinds of Needles postboard for Ooze and/or Deed. Honestly, the way I would do it is just go get a Maze ASAP, because they don't run Wastes and can't handle enough of a splash for Vindicate. I dig for a Maze ASAP then I go get Academy Ruins because recurring it is quite strong against a deck that's mostly 2s and 3s. Smokestack, if it gets online, can be killer. But I agree that the mana denial plan is pretty much worthless in this MU. I haven't had a chance to test against the Birthing Pod version, though that one seems pretty terrible for us since they can actually circumvent the mana denial process nearly 100%.
I, too, have been having annoying issues with UW Stoneblade's whole "rip Snapcaster/Surgical off the top, win" technique. However, I wonder if just bringing in Chalice at 1 isn't better. Very few lists run Spellstutter Sprite at the moment, and Clique is both a) not often a problem when your hand is all lands and b) declining in popularity due to Geist. I see Orb having relevance elsewhere, but I'm not sure if it's enough to board it in against... well, anything. Chalice for one also stops them from having 8 Brainstorm/8 Spell Snare/8 Swords to Plowshares, which are relevant games 2 and 3 (if they kept them in) for Bob and any other creature-based hatebears. I'm running Phyrexian Revoker right now.
EDIT: Also, I took out the 2 Krosan Grips in my board. I found that I was ONLY bringing them in against decks with Leyline. Thus, I was bringing them in against any deck with black, and if they didn't have Leyline, they kind of sucked, and I was completely cold to Leyline in off-color decks, especially if I had lost G1. Plus I was tired of having 2 non-tutorable 3 cmc cards in my board, so I added a Sylvok Replica - recurrable, tutorable artifact hate that blocks Geist like a champ and saves itself from Swords.
Yeah, chalice is probably just better than orb at stopping snapcaster decks. On the issue of cutting K-Grip, I wouldn't because U/W sometimes sideboards crucible and leyline, both of which you want answers to that they can't counter.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
