Yeah, the list is actually supposed to be -1 Kitchen Finks + 1 land.
In general the deck isn't trying to *race* to six land and slam a phatty, its supposed to sustain the board state to a point at which having six lands is relevant to our drops, and irrelevant to our opponents. I'm happy sitting on 3-4 land for a few turns so long as the cards in my hand can all either interact with my opponent or with the board.
The deck relies on inevitability. If you can survive the initial onslaught, you win the game. I've been running IoK because it hits everything I really want it to, and cabal therapy hits everything else. Also, Hymn get's snared.
Originally Posted by emidln
For the questions about the Punishing Fire version here are my experiences and my current list:
- The Mana base is the only reason why I don't play Liliana.
- Living Wish is worth it in testing though it is close. Spell Snare is a nuisance but only 1/4 of the decks plays them, they don't always have it and it isn't game breaking if gets countered. The lack of SB slots hurts but on the other hand you get to play 4x life gain vs. Burn and 4x Yardhate/Karakas cards against Reanimator/Dredge which is as much as you would normally side anyway except that you already get it in G1.
- Punishing Fire/Grove is very good. It is fast enough to effectively combat Delver aggro and gives you a way better game against Jaces. It can completely take over games and even if they have Wasteland for Grove it was still a Ghitu Fire Slinger land.
- My experiences with Huntmaster of the Fells were mostly positive, like all people that played with him. It rarely wins games completely by itself like Thrun when he blanks their 4 spot removals but it gives all kinds of different value. Solid if he does not flip with a high potential upside.
- In the current Meta I like Batterskull. It seems to me like the best resilient win condition that still does something against Delver decks.
- 2 GSZ works fine for me. It allows to have access to more Explorers without having to go overboard on GSZ targets.
- SBing works best by siding in a few useful wish targets if you know what you want to Wish for anyway. Against Reanimator for example you can side in Bog and Ooze because you Wish for Faerie or Karakas anyway. Fleshbag Marauder can almost always come in if they run creatures and you don't need it for Thrun, Prog. or Emrakul.
- Is there nothing useful that you can Wish for against Combo? Have they just not printed a useful land or creature in those three colors? Like Teeg, Canonist, Thalia, Glowrider? Ichneumon Druid doesn't make the cut and currently I use Entomber Exarch which is flexible but embarrassingly slow and ineffective for its mana costs.
// Lands
2 [B] Swamp
3 [B] Forest
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [B] Bayou
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
1 [B] Taiga
1 [B] Badlands
2 [B] Mountain
// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [DKA] Huntmaster of the Fells
1 [ALA] Broodmate Dragon
// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
2 [OD] Innocent Blood
2 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [JU] Living Wish
2 [NPH] Batterskull
2 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [NPH] Entomber Exarch
SB: 1 [ALA] Caldera Hellion
SB: 1 [M12] Acidic Slime
SB: 1 [CMD] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [ALA] Fleshbag Marauder
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 1 [ARB] Anathemancer
SB: 1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
Last edited by Tao; 02-28-2012 at 03:23 AM.
Looks pretty solid all-in-all. I've also liked Fire/Grove in my testing, although I haven't been dedicating the full 8 slots to it in the Jund builds I've been messing around with on MWS. But there are a few notes/questions I have:
-I get it that accommodating Lilliana is a pain in the ass, mana-base wise, but I can't help but feel like it would be worthwhile. She's incredibly strong in tandem with Punishing Fire, and you can probably sneak some more black sources in there. I'm not entirely sure if you need the second Mountain or the fourth Grove (Grove is more necessary than 2nd Mountain, obv. But I think committing four slots to Grove might be messing up your mana a little harder than it needs to be.)
-2 GSZ/ 4 Living Wish seems like a pretty intelligent split.
-The third Huntsmaster seems a little like overkill/ it might be better to toss in a Thrun or a third Witness instead. Also, maybe it's just cute, but I think you should experiment with supplementing him with Master of the Wild Hunt and Garruk Relentless for some hot wolf-on-opponent action.
-WTF is with the two maindeck Nihil Spellbombs? Even if this is a meta call, it kind of seems like a weird one without some justification.
-How often is Wishing for Genesis useful, really? You don't really have reliable ways to bin him right now (cough, Liliana would work here), and he seems like he'd only be good in the grindiest of attrition games, which you should already be decently prepared for. Plus you already have Anathemancer to wish for in those matches.
-In general, I think your Wish-board looks pretty good, but I think you might be wasting too many spaces on it. 12 slots is pretty heavy.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Nihil Spellbomb:
I guess it's just another way to take care of KotR with PunFir in addition to the Bojuka Bog in the board, while being effective against other decks, like Dredge or Snapcaster.dec etc...
Actually, i'd love to play 4 Liliana along pun Fire, but we couldn't make the mana work either.
@Tao:
Did you follow the NO BUG plan a little further after the MM banning? I am tinkering around with a list and i am not sure if NO is needed or if it's just a worse version of Jace Landeed. The Liliana/Jace interaction is just so good, that i don't want to pass upon them.
Isn't it simply better to play Scavenging oozes instead of the Nihil Spellbombs md?
I would also play some REB/Pyroblast in the SB
Ooze is slow against some decks and against Maverick you don't always have the time to to chew up Lands. I can totally understand the Nihils especially when there is a lot of Dredge and Reanimator.
Apparently my other build had two cards to much (woops)
2 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Broodmate Dragon
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Innocent Blood
2 Thoughtseize
4 Punishing Fire
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountains
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
SB:
3 Engineered Plague
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Liliana of the Veil
This is what i'm looking at now. I have found myself disliking Hymn in this deck as it's now a three color deck. I've added Thoughtseize instead. It's possible it should be Inquisition now that i have Punishing Fire to deal with Jaces etc. I think however that Liliana is needed now that i have Punishing Fire (they're really good together) as well as the fact that it's just a really good card. It is possible that the Skeletal Scrying should go out for another Pulse, a Dismember or something of the sort. Or even another threat as i find myself feeling a bit threat light.
@Tao: I see you cut all the Pulses, is it because you no longer fear the planeswalkers, so you'll just play Innocent Blood instead?
Last edited by Stoyrm; 02-29-2012 at 09:27 AM.
Green Sun's Zenith seems rather terrible in this deck. The only things I'm remotely excited about doing with it are getting Dryad Arbor on 1, or Veteran Explorer on two. The rest of the time it can't get anything exciting, although Ooze will occasionally be a real card.
The reason it's so good in Maverick is that it either gets a backbreaking utility card, or it gets Knight of the Reliquary. This deck is missing the second half of that equation, and oh god no Deranged Hermit does not count.
[He's good with Recurring Nightmare, but every time I draw that I'm going to wonder why it's not just Liliana.]
- Nihil Spellbomb: I think two of them in the main are good in the current meta. It is awesome vs. Dredge and Reanimator, kills Knight of the Reliquary safely in combination with one P. Fire and is a good value card in the mirror, against Snapcaster or other randomness. Plus it cycles when it does nothing else. I don't understand why people are so reluctant to run MD yard hate.
- Pulses/Liliana: I wouldn't blame anyone for playing them. If I wouldn't run Living Wish I would cut a Spellbomb and play 2 Pulses, 2 Lilianas and a 3rd Inquisition.
- REB/Pyroblast: Unfortunately there is no room because of the Wishboard and Duresses are more important.
- Genesis: If I have no idea what to wish for I wish for Genesis. You can sac it to Therapy or Tower if you want it in the yard. Could be a Grave Titan, Gigapede or Wurmcoil Engine, too. I have no idea which is the most reliable win con.
So here's all the remotely playable 4 drop creatures:
Abyssal Persecutor
Bloodbraid Elf
Olivia Voldaren
Bloodline Keeper
Master of the Wild Hunt
Huntsmaster of the Fells
Chameleon Colossus
Thrun
Masticore
Mystic Enforcer
Phyrexian Obliterator
Skinrender
Solemn Simulacrum
and remotely playable 5 drops:
Acidic Slime
Anowon, the Ruin Sage
Havengul Lich
Lord of Extinction
Reveillark
Shriekmaw
Siege-Gang Commander
Spiritmonger
Vorapede
Baneslayer Angel
Vulturous Zombie
Last edited by Malakai; 02-28-2012 at 12:32 PM.
I'd definitely add Huntmaster to that list. I've been tinkering with a red list on Cockatrice since that seems to be what everyone is excited about at the moment. While I'm not in any hurry to change my Rector list, I will concede that Huntmaster is the real deal. Even if it isn't flipping back and forth like crazy, it applies serious pressure while also acting like a Kitchen Finks to support Arenas. Olivia is very exciting, but at the same time, Bolt is worrisome. You'd basically have to play her like a 6-drop to dodge that problem. Still, she could very much take a game over on her own.
I like the idea of a 4/2 split of Wish to GSZ, although I am unsure of what I would want in the sb. Probably Ooze, Karakas, Bog, and a hefty wincon of some kind; then maybe matchup specific stuff like Canonist, Kataki, an extra Finks? If I can figure out a wishboard for tonight, I'll try the Wishes at my local. Otherwise I'll run the same list I've been running. Mystic Enforcer has been pretty ridiculous in testing, although threshold is sometimes annoying to get since Therapies exile, as do Rectors. Still, having a GSZ-able flyer is amazing.
EDIT: Thanks, Malakai, for not putting Hermit on the list of playable 5-drops. He very much doesn't belong. I wouldn't consider Vorapede, either, personally. It needed haste to be good, IMO.
Why isn't Master of the Wild Hunt playable? It repeatedly kills Snapcaster Mages, Cliques, Elves, but then again i might not need it when i have Punishing Fire. However it seems like it would really lock up some of the elves matches i have to play around here ^^,. Also Wickerbough Elder has been fine in testing. Not really amazing, but fine. Catch all.
I didn't even notice that Master wasn't on that list -- ironic, since I've been running one for a while now. The thing with Master is that he's good if you have additional support in the deck for him. He rarely takes over a game completely by himself, although it can happen...it's just not usually worth the slot to run him by himself, IMO. However, my list is running 3 Garruk Relentless, primarily because of Rector, but it also provides enough synergy to make Master amazing. That's one of the fun and obnoxious things about building this deck -- it's a heaping pile of synergies. What works for one list won't work for another. IE, Bloodbraid Elf (also on that list) would work really well with Living Wish, but not with GSZ. You really need to start the list with some design considerations and then go from there. But yeah, I would definitely add Master to that list of 4-drops (at least for some versions of the deck).
I added both of those cards, although I would rather cast Olivia than either one of them.
The only way I can currently rationalize running Green Sun's Zenith is if I am playing white, and have multiple Knight of the Reliquary.
My hunch is that the optimal list features the following:
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk Relentless
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Veteran Explorer
I'd agree with all of those, except for Liliana of the Veil. She didn't impress me at all when I ran her. I would add that in a Punishing Fire version, I could certainly get behind her...but in a GBW list, or even straight GB, I don't think that the means to use her appropriately exists. She's at her best when you can either break the symmetry of her discard (Fire), or when you can keep your opponent permanently hand-locked (Pox). If you can't do either of those things, I don't think Liliana is the card for you.
I would define the core of the deck as such:
4 Explorer
4 Therapy
3 Deed
I think that everything else is completely dependent on the individual strategies that the list is trying to incorporate. Some number of Garruk Relentless is probably correct regardless of specifics, but I think that that number could vary anywhere from 1 to 3, depending on the list.
Being able to reliably get Explorer is definitely a big reason for GSZ. But I think it depends on what creatures you put into your deck.
I like it for grabbing acidic slime, dungrove elder, eternal witness, and scavenging ooze. Ooze has been so good to me, I'm seriously considering going up to 3 main deck. Ooze straight up wrecks a lot of decks, especially considering how much green mana this deck can put on the board when you're only running 2 colors. In the 3 color build he might not be as good though.
He's certainly good, but the snapcaster/clique decks tend to have infinite one mana exile spells or lightning bolts depending on their splash color. So I can't imagine he stays on the board the two turns you need him to, in order for him to make a difference. For the same mana you can land Ooze and pull a few instants out of their graveyard to limit Snapcasters function. And if he gets to live until you untap, you can pretty much empty their graveyard and maybe gain some life.
I haven't really played against elves, but he seems slow against them. They can just rip a glimpse and go off against you anytime after turn 2 right? It seems like you just want to ruin their hand early and hope to land a deed to slow the game down. But I will admit to not knowing a lot about the matchup.
I do agree against UW Stoneforge and such he might not be good. In the elves matchup all that it's about is usually about landing a deed, blowing them out and then make sure they stay that way. A deed followed by Master of the Wild Hunt is often pretty game. Against other creature decks he's pretty okay as well. But i do agree, he's a rather cute card. I'll test it some more :).
I think Master of the Wild Hunt is totally playable, but not great against UW Blade (due to the mentioned infy exile effects), a GSZ @ 4 should almost certainly fetch Thrun over him. There are plenty of other matches where Master's good though like against agro and midrange - Gobs, Folk, Zoo, Maverick, Deadguy, the mirror etc. He can be a fine top deck against most fair decks if you're both looking for a threat to break a standstill.
Just thinking aloud: Is it worth trying Pattern of Rebirth and Emrakul in this deck (1 of each)? Advantages:
1. Pattern can be tutored for with Enlightened Tutor
2. Pattern is kinda good even though you should be so unlucky to have emrakul in your hand (find gravetitan, sun titan, whatever)
3. Pattern can be semi-tutored for with Academy Rector
Disadvantages:
1. If you have Emrakul in your hand, and you don't play Liliana, is there any way to shuffle him back in the library?
2. Requires two slots in the deck.
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