[RANT] WTF Legacy players!?!?!?!

[dontbiteitholmes]

Is it Christmas already?

Fresh PM from Dr. Jones

Hasbro might be a multinational, but WotC listens to its player base
It's fine if you don't believe that I have influenced Mtg, but the truth is that R&D, Mark Gottlieb and Mark Rosewater actually do listen to player's feedback that you write at the end of the article.

Here are some of the actions they've taken after my feedback:

0. Dancing Scimitar and Serra Angel at uncommon.
1. Fight and Reach keywords.
2. Core sets no longer just reprints.
3. Boomerang effects no longer affect lands.
4. Limited number of counterspells per set.
5. Treefolk as the Green race in Lorwyn.
6. "doesn't untap" as the snake green mechanic in Kamigawa.
7. Shuffling opponent's deck no longer required if it was already shuffled, and it now counts as stalling in the tournament floor rules.
8. Commander as a supported format by WotC.
9. At the end of the Great Designer Search 2, they asked for the one person they should hire on twitter, I suggested THREE, and they hired exactly those three (it has a lot of merit, because I suggested people that weren't even finalists)
10. Several cards like "Harm's Way", "Hornet Queen", and the more recent "Cavern of Souls".

So, yes, they do listen to the players' feedback, and not just me, I know a lot of people that suggested something to wizards and they listened to them. WotC has even released cards aimed for a single person like Timbermare, which was an homage to the wife of a Magic columnist who had recently died. You are an ignorant if you think WotC desn't listen to their player base just because they were bought by a multinational, even more if what they suggest actually improves their game.

By the way, I've also suggested them a change to the legendary rule. I'm waiting for the next legendary set to know if they'll implement the idea or not. It's just a small tweak that solves many of the problems with the mechanic. I don't know if they'll do it, but if they do, I promise many people will like the change.

[SpikeyMikey]

I have a fine-tuned eye for game balance

I had to stop reading right there while I choked damn near to death on incredulity so thick it was tangible. Your eye is about as finely-tuned as Cavius the Great's. The problem is that your understanding of the metagame of Magic is flawed. And by metagame, I don't mean the general field of decks, I mean the actual overarching strategy of the game as a whole.

Magic is like an arms race. If the other guy has swords, you bring a gun. If the other guy has guns, you bring tanks. If the other guy has tanks, you bring artillery. If they have artillery, you bring bombs. But bombs aren't that effective against a guy with a sword. He's a small target, he's hard to hit, and once he closes range, your bombs are useless. If you dump all your military budget into bombs and neglect some sort of defense against antique weaponry, your base is going to be overrun and you're going to lose the war. Control decks in Magic, because they go to the late game every time, run the biggest bombs they can manage, to make sure they've always got the bigger weapon in a firefight. But counterspells bridge the gap between small arms and bombs and act as a trump to opposing bombs. Because of this, counterspells are a necessity to any control deck in a format with a wide range of threats (which Legacy is and always will be). Otherwise, small aggro decks become bigger aggro decks as they seek to beat the other small aggro decks. Those decks turn into ramp decks as they seek to beat the bigger aggro decks in a manner fast enough to survive the small aggro decks. Combo decks, which are the ultimate ramp decks (again, in terms of overarching strategy, not in terms of normal classification), move to win as fast as possible, before any countermeasures can be brought against them. In short, all nuance is taken out of the format and you're left with a game where variance is the biggest factor in who wins.

You don't get all that, however. You see Force of Will as an oppressive card that stops you from playing whatever stupid bullshit it is that you want to play, not realizing that in a format this fast, control decks *have* to be able to tap out in order to deal with the raw power level of the format and that taking that from them will push the format to new, more aggressive heights. And whatever stupid bullshit it was that you wanted to play in the first place will be completely useless, because you're getting smoked by Belcher.

A game designer like you would be a very broke game designer, because you have no concept of how to balance effects.

[DrJones]

I don't understand why that pm makes the thread awesome. Unless you really don't believe that the "submit feedback button" at the bottom of the article in the main site it's absolutely useless.

You know, there are certain creatures in the game, including frogmite that became frogs just because this one user named "the werefrog" asked for the return of the "frog" type to magic.

I'm friend with judges that have suggested changes to some cards so that they worked better with the rules, heck, Bounty of the Hunt puts +1/+1 counters again because I pointed out the original (and printed wording) had a combo with Triskelion the designers had overseen.

Some people started a campaign so that Sorrow's Path could be again a combo if you donated it to the opponent and tapped it repeatedly with Icy Manipulator.

You don't always get away with all the suggestions you make to WotC, but they do indeed read every mail you write to them.

[xfxf]

EDIT: Come to think of it, I'm convinced you were joking.

I don't want to take part in the duel in any way, just wanted to say I did the math as well and yes, it does come to something like 60 posts per day for the last 5 years. If he was joking, hell, he should better quit computer science and apply for Merrill Lynch right away. What an eye

[dontbiteitholmes]

I had to stop reading right there while I choked damn near to death on incredulity so thick it was tangible. Your eye is about as finely-tuned as Cavius the Great's.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees that parallel.

[mini1337s]

Here are some of the actions they've taken after my feedback:
...
8. Commander as a supported format by WotC.
...
10. Several cards like "Harm's Way", "Hornet Queen", and the more recent "Cavern of Souls".

I'm actually dying right now.
PM of the year. All years.

[DrJones]

Spikemike, I invite you to ask Mark Rosewater what's his opinion on free countermagic. He has stated it several times on his columns. Go ahead and read them. I mean, I'm sure you'll think Mark Rosewater is a much better designer than me, you'll at least agree with whatever he says about the matter of counterspells that happen to be free. I won't stop you, I'm pretty sure he'll agree with you if you are right. He's reasonable and a pretty cool guy.

EDIT: Search also for what Mark Rosewater has to say about the importance of "shields down moments" and the need for all cards to have a countercard. Though I believe the main site will talk about them soon will all the hype around Cavern of Souls.

[Koby]

[Snap_Keep]

Well, I didn't start playing magic the day I joined this forum. I've been playing magic for more than a few weeks, and I'll leave it at that.

Is the assertion that people are making, about you being unhappy with Force of Will in legacy, well, accurate? If you don't think Force has a place in legacy then I'm a little sceptical of your experience and skill in the format, without putting too fine of a point on it.

Force of Will is very important in combating combo decks. It itself isn't an oppressive card, quite the opposite, it keeps us from being oppressed by powerful combo decks. If you want to ban Force, sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth, I haven't actually seen you say this, then you would likely have to ban LED. At that point I think many players would be upset by not being able to play a huge combo archetype or be being able to play with Force of Will. I don't imagine I'm making a very good first impression by getting into this sort of argument so soon after joining, so I apologize for the faux pas.

I really like the analogy of legacy as an arms race.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Spikemike, I invite you to ask Mark Rosewater what's his opinion on free countermagic. He has stated it several times on his columns. Go ahead and read them. I mean, I'm sure you'll think Mark Rosewater is a much better designer than me, you'll at least agree with whatever he says about the matter of counterspells that happen to be free. I won't stop you, I'm pretty sure he'll agree with you if you are right. He's reasonable and a pretty cool guy.

I'll save you the time, he is against free counterspells that can be used by any color not the overall idea of counterspells that don't cost mana.

[SpikeyMikey]

Spikemike, I invite you to ask Mark Rosewater what's his opinion on free countermagic. He has stated it several times on his columns. Go ahead and read them. I mean, I'm sure you'll think Mark Rosewater is a much better designer than me, you'll at least agree with whatever he says about the matter of counterspells that happen to be free. I won't stop you, I'm pretty sure he'll agree with you if you are right. He's reasonable and a pretty cool guy.

You're choosing the wrong figurehead for backing. The guy's an idiot. It's a tough call as to who has done more harm to the game over the years, him or Tom LaPille. On one hand, LaPille banned MT based on a handful of games played in the MTGO tournament practice room and proclaimed Great Sable Stag the answer to blue. On the other, Maro was design and development for Urza's and lead design for Mirrodin, showing that his eye for card power levels is almos as keen as yours. He's also the one who feels that flavor is as important as gameplay, which has lead to such scintillating examples of positive change as "Defender" instead of "Wall" and the temporary moratorium on Merfolk as a creature type (obviously they've started printing them again, but they stopped printing new fish for a while because it didn't make any "sense" as to how they could attack players on land...). Oh yes, he's also the genius behind flip cards, because that mechanic has added so much to the game. Honestly, I'm sure if I wanted to dig, I could find a few hundred other examples of why he's a drooling moron, but frankly, it's not worth the effort.

Edit: Oh, and Snap, welcome to the forums. I'm not usually this much of an asshole (I let IBA cover that), but I'm in a particularly cranky mood tonight.

DrJones has been on a crusade to get Force banned for years. That quote he's got sigged? That sums up his views on the subject. He has a slightly inflated sense of self-importance, but then again, this IS a MtG forums, I think everyone here (minus the lurkers!), myself included, has that same problem.

[mini1337s]

You're choosing the wrong figurehead for backing. The guy's an idiot. It's a tough call as to who has done more harm to the game over the years, him or Tom LaPille. On one hand, LaPille banned MT based on a handful of games played in the MTGO tournament practice room and proclaimed Great Sable Stag the answer to blue. On the other, Maro was design and development for Urza's and lead design for Mirrodin, showing that his eye for card power levels is almos as keen as yours. He's also the one who feels that flavor is as important as gameplay, which has lead to such scintillating examples of positive change as "Defender" instead of "Wall" and the temporary moratorium on Merfolk as a creature type (obviously they've started printing them again, but they stopped printing new fish for a while because it didn't make any "sense" as to how they could attack players on land...). Oh yes, he's also the genius behind flip cards, because that mechanic has added so much to the game. Honestly, I'm sure if I wanted to dig, I could find a few hundred other examples of why he's a drooling moron, but frankly, it's not worth the effort.

Didn't Lapille also suggest Overgrown Battlement was the card between Infect being unplayable and a Tier 1 deck?

[DrJones]

Well, I didn't start playing magic the day I joined this forum. I've been playing magic for more than a few weeks, and I'll leave it at that.

Is the assertion that people are making, about you being unhappy with Force of Will in legacy, well, accurate? If you don't think Force has a place in legacy then I'm a little sceptical of your experience and skill in the format, without putting too fine of a point on it.

Force of Will is very important in combating combo decks. It itself isn't an oppressive card, quite the opposite, it keeps us from being oppressed by powerful combo decks. If you want to ban Force, sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth, I haven't actually seen you say this, then you would likely have to ban LED. At that point I think many players would be upset by not being able to play a huge combo archetype or be being able to play with Force of Will. I don't imagine I'm making a very good first impression by getting into this sort of argument so soon after joining, so I apologize for the faux pas.

Yes, I believe Magic as a whole is better without FoW, and I've also said that it probably means LED would need to go. But I've also said plenty of times that just looking at the times WotC has banned a card in magic, 90% of the time was from a combo deck packing FoW itself to make the combo too difficult to stop for blue decks, and outright impossible to counter for nonblue decks. The only combo decks FoW stops is storm, and then you find R&D actually wants storm to be playable to be the nemesis of the blue FoW decks.

Actually, what it happens at that point is that people agree with what I say, but then conclude that banning FoW or brainstorm would make the format unfun and they would no longer want to play legacy. I disagree because people don't play FoW in Magic Online Classic and the format is healthier than this meta (then again, they don't play LED either, both cards are pretty expensive for most players to own) and not as blue centric as Paper Legacy.

[SpikeyMikey]

Didn't Lapille also suggest Overgrown Battlement was the card between Infect being unplayable and a Tier 1 deck?

I do remember him saying that infect was a tier 1 deck in the FFL testing. Honestly, the number of dumb things the man said was legion. Thank god that spot opened up in D&D and he jumped ship.

[rxavage]

Reserved for future delusional and self validating post.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Yes, I believe Magic as a whole is better without FoW, and I've also said that it probably means LED would need to go. But I've also said plenty of times that just looking at the times WotC has banned a card in magic, 90% of the time was from a combo deck packing FoW itself to make the combo too difficult to stop for blue decks, and outright impossible to counter for nonblue decks. The only combo decks FoW stops is storm, and then you find R&D actually wants storm to be playable to be the nemesis of the blue FoW decks.

Actually, what it happens at that point is that people agree with this point, but then say that banning FoW or brainstorm would make the format unfun and people will no longer play legacy. I disagree because people don't play FoW in Magic Online Classic and the format is healthier than this meta (then again, they don't play LED either, both cards are pretty expensive for most players to own) and not as blue centric as Paper Legacy.

Who agrees with that point? 90% of the cards are not banned because they were broke with Force of Will backup, that's just a made up statistic. You continue to impress me with your lack of knowledge across multiple areas of the game of Magic. If that was true at all we would currently all be getting destroyed by combo decks with Pact of Negation, which is a free Force of Will against blue decks that only Combo decks can play reliably with less of a drawback.

Also LOL at MTGO Classic. Yeah, it blew my mind when I heard you say no one plays Force of Will in Classic. How could that be true I thought? What about combo, they would just get destroyed? So I googled MTGO Classic decks to look into that claim. First webpage I found...

Card Usage - 2012 Season
1. Force of Will
2. Leyline of the Void

You are delusional and I'm pretty sure no one agrees with you.

[Snap_Keep]

Edit: Oh, and Snap, welcome to the forums. I'm not usually this much of an asshole (I let IBA cover that), but I'm in a particularly cranky mood tonight.

DrJones has been on a crusade to get Force banned for years. That quote he's got sigged? That sums up his views on the subject. He has a slightly inflated sense of self-importance, but then again, this IS a MtG forums, I think everyone here (minus the lurkers!), myself included, has that same problem.

Thank you for the welcome. I'm very much the same way, I have to catch myself before I say something arrogant or make myself look foolish. It's a 24 hour job haha

Yes, I believe Magic as a whole is better without FoW, and I've also said that it probably means LED would need to go. But I've also said plenty of times that just looking at the times WotC has banned a card in magic, 90% of the time was from a combo deck packing FoW itself to make the combo too difficult to stop for blue decks, and outright impossible to counter for nonblue decks. The only combo decks FoW stops is storm, and then you find R&D actually wants storm to be playable to be the nemesis of the blue FoW decks.

Actually, what it happens at that point is that people agree with this point, but then say that banning FoW or brainstorm would make the format unfun and people will no longer play legacy. I disagree because people don't play FoW in Magic Online Classic and the format is healthier than this meta (then again, they don't play LED either, both cards are pretty expensive for most players to own) and not as blue centric as Paper Legacy.

Well, I'd like to continue this discussion, but maybe this would be more appropriate in the B&R thread? I'm not sure... but I had lurked for a bit before joining, and noticed there is active moderation, which is part of what attracted to me to this community. I think your suggestion that legacy online is quite different from paper legacy is interesting, I have no exposure to, or experience with legacy on modo. What are the top decks on modo for legacy? I guess what the argument boils down to is would the meta be healthier without LED driven combo and Force of Will? I guess it's important to define our terms and decide what "healthy" means here. I would suggest a healthy meta entails all 3 main archetypes are represented and that all colors see at least some play. This is my shoot from the hip definition and should likely be added to and refined. Blue has always had an important place in eternal formats, it hasn't always been the best, but it's always been at least good. Part of what attracts people to legacy, I think is that you get to play with powerful, older blue cards. I'm also not sure that banning LED along with FoW would be enough to keep use from being overwrought with combo decks, though. I feel like Show and Tell based combo and Past in Flames / Rituals based combo would become much stronger without Force / LED in the format.

[Aggro_zombies]

I do remember him saying that infect was a tier 1 deck in the FFL testing. Honestly, the number of dumb things the man said was legion. Thank god that spot opened up in D&D and he jumped ship.

To be fair, they admitted to completely missing Valakut in FFL testing, so maybe infect was tier one.

[DrJones]

Snap_keep, I'm sorry because you really are well-meaning and looking for intelligent discussion, but this thread is simply not the right place for it, at least at this moment. Plus, I have had this discussion at least ten times already on the forums and it always ends in a flame-fest. Some users intentionally bring the FoW point up to pick a fight with me. Probably because I'm hurting some belief that is very important for them. I've noticed that the more reasons I give and the more polite I am, the worse the reaction becomes. So I actually prefer them not to take me seriously and mock me, which is why I created this signature. That way, I'm the crazy one that nobody should listen to about magic theory, and they can feel better.

I suggest never to bring up any of the points on Julian's signature, because otherwise you'll create the kind of hysteria that I brought to this thread and it will follow you for years to come. It doesn't mean they are right, but they are very vocal about their opinions.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Snap_keep, I'm sorry because you really are well-meaning and looking for intelligent discussion, but this thread is simply not the right place for it, at least at this moment. Plus, I have had this discussion at least ten times already on the forums and it always ends in a flame-fest. Some users intentionally bring the FoW point up to pick a fight with me. Probably because I'm hurting some belief that is very important for them. I've noticed that the more reasons I give and the more polite I am, the worse the reaction becomes. So I actually prefer them not to take me seriously and mock me, which is why I created this signature. That way, I'm the crazy one that nobody should listen to about magic theory, and they can feel better.

I suggest never to bring up any of the points on Julian's signature, because otherwise you'll create the kind of hysteria that I brought to this thread and it will follow you for years to come. It doesn't mean they are right, but they are very vocal about their opinions.

There is no intelligent discussion to be had in terms of banning FoW. I'll leave it to everyone to determine who has a firmer grasp on reality, Dr. Jones or everyone else on these boards who disagrees with him. This is the typical end of these discussions. Dr. Jones attempts to debate reasons why Force of Will needs to be banned using a bunch of made up arguments. Someone disproves every statement he makes like I did here, then instead of addressing how every point he just tried to make just got completely exposed as false, then he goes into smug satisfaction mode, because obviously he is smart enough to see that Force of Will is broken even when literally everyone else I've ever met who plays Legacy disagrees.

Also who is very vocal about their opinions. You have 10 times as many posts as everyone else here put together...