@ Vacrix, in my area I see a lot of Esperblade (the more controllish version), Stoneblade, some Delver and lots of Maverick and/or similar decks. Tangle so far has been great since the high land count allows you to wait with fetching until you really need to cast Tangle, makings wastelands hurt a bit less.
I'm personally not really a big fan of snap in this deck but that might just be my playstyle, as I personally believe that if I would want to combo fast i'd be better off by either going for a small hunting pack or more principally just by playing a different deck. With the printing of snapcaster mage the deck feels so much more resillient, epsecially when youre just slowly playing out the game against control decks and stockpiling threats in your grave.
I run my deck closer to ravingxfantasy's version as I also don't run any maindeck Snap.
My thinking was that if I am relying on snapcaster to do anything more than just replay one instant, then I am also opening the door to creature removal that makes the snap fizzle etc.
I do see how Snap can bag you more turn 3 win options; but I prefer to live with the turn 4 consistency as it once again keeps my opponent out of the picture other than if he has control (which will always be an issue).
I went 3-0 at legacy night at the local; but the toughest match I had was R/B goblins as their clock is just that fast sometimes.
I was glad I had some Turnabouts in the main, since we don't always find Resets, and Snap are not reliable all the time.Originally Posted by Vacrix
The one on the side was usefull once against Loam, and if there was no untapper there, I'd have lost.
Fluster would have been golden against the Stasis player, and guess better against Reanimator too, since Snapcasting it is better than Pierce.
This was something that I was worried about too (since happened when I played Spring Tide), but it was never an issue in my testing. Really, we can easily play around that...
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
If you're running Remand, then you should be better against Control. Either way, control really isn't an issue. If they're not tapping out for anything, then you've got all day long, which is absolutely going to benefit you. If anything, the reason to play this deck is a metagame infested with control decks. If you're not being pressured, then there's always the double Brain Freeze plan, which is solid because it doesn't matter what they counter.
If you guys are having trouble against control, you should read the entire thread, and the thread before it. This deck is inherently strong against counterspells, especially weak ones like Spell Pierce and Daze, which is primarily what's getting seen today. Sure, you'll occasionally come up against Counterspell guy, but it's highly likely that he's not going to have anything to pressure you with, which means you can afford to wait around. Adding Snap doesn't remove your ability to wait and make land drops, it just gives you outs to turn-3 aggro decks. And in those long games, it's not really worse than Remand, since you can use it to buyback Snapcaster Mages to buyback spells, which is what you'd be using Remand for, anyway.
@benthetenor I hear what your saying, and Control matches were not an issue (as you stated) as you can make more land drops, palm some control of your own, and actually go off under their counter to just get more storm count from them anyway.
I faced R/b Goblins in the first round, and the guy as pretty well forcing me to attempt and turn 3-4 combo or die. First game he did the Mountain, Lacky, Go... I got lucky and beat him on turn 4 but only because I played first so he was only beginning his turn 4, and I happened to get a Reset on my previous Draw.
4 Islands went into High Tide, Snapcaster --> High Tide, Peek (gets me a Meditate), Reset, Meditate --> winning cards as it got pretty silly from there actually.
Next game he hammered me before I got to 4 lands.
Last game I got a decent hand a drew well to go off turn 4 again; but his clock would have had me if I had allowed him to continue is turn.
I do run 1 Snap in my Sideboard but left it there as I figured him for the creature removal on the snapcaster, I hadn't really considered the option for late combo usage; but I did do it in game three, using drawn cunning wish to get the Snap (having control in hand by then and mana available). This allowed me to Snap the snapcaster to seal the deal on him (targeted a Meditate) and he scooped.
So don't get me wrong... I wasn't saying that Snap was bad, I was saying that my thinking was possibly a little shaky on paper as real game experience showed that Snap is excellent even around removal, etc. I will be shoe horn'ing 2x Snap into my deck alongside the 3x snapcaster... but what to remove... probably the Opt/Peek section get a trimming.
Thanks.
Oh and my other matches were vs TES which was weird; but actually easier than I thought since he didn't get turn 1 god hands so 3-4 mana was not really an issue as my control stalled him long enough for me to go 2-0 past him.
Third match was vs a crappy homebrew deck that was very sub par; but the player is learning and building as they trade/buy into things... It was a Sligh deck, but considering 3x Ball Lightning over Goblin Guides it really was sub par.
I also Maverick, Dredge, Pox/Gate, RUG delver, and Stoneblade up on site. And I can tell you from experience that I was happy to not face the Pox deck (bad match for us).
That's a lot of good stuff, nice work!
I've been testing the version with 3 Snap and 18 lands and it feels a lot smoother in a lot of ways. Like I said earlier, it's not a move I felt like I had to make, but I'm rather surprised at how much easier finding lands is with just one more. Statistically it should only come up a handful of times in a hundred games, so maybe I've just hit some outliers, but it definitely feels like it's a lot easier to make land drops. I'll keep testing it.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
12 [P3] Island (1)
// Creatures
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
// Spells
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
4 [LG] Reset
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [VI] Impulse
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
2 [US] Turnabout
1 [SC] Brain Freeze
4 [TE] Meditate
2 [GP] Repeal
2 [UL] Snap
2 [JGC] Cunning Wish
4 [M12] Visions of Beyond
2 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [VI] Three Wishes
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [MBS] Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 3 [PLC] Piracy Charm
Hey Seraphus, I thought you were done with the Source. Good to see you!
Some questions about your list:
Why Thirst for Knowledge? If you need a 3 mana spell that puts one card in hand and 2 in the grumps, wouldn't Intuition just be better?
I thought you hated Visions of Beyond, but now you're playing even more than I am?
Is Piracy Charm relevant? The only guy I can think of that we care about (that it actually deals with) is Thalia. I guess it gets Mother of Runes, too.
Only one Brain Freeze anywhere? That seems particularly odd given that you're running a full playset of Visions of Beyond.
I'm just super curious since I know you put a lot of thought and work into this deck, so more than anything, I'm curious how and why we've come to different ideas of what the optimal list looks like.
Welcome back! Long time no see
Maybe you can spread some thoughts about your list and how it has benefitted you?
I am back because i see that there r people with good thoughts on solidarity, and that is stimulating enough... No more strange solutions (sorceries mixed with instants etc).
In short manner: this list is experimentation - specially the VoB, Thirst, etc....
FAQs: (there maybe other justifications for my choices but I may not remember them at the moment LOL)
3 (not any other quantity) Snapcaster: no1 can't deny that it's the most powerful add to solidarity but the role it performs must be defined - so, snapcaster is an element of balance an consistence... it blocks it does everything mention before but the deck cannot be dependent on snapcaster nor in snapcaster cmc (for us the cmc of snapcaster is always (90% of the time) 2+x). And we have Snap that re-utilize the mage trigger. (3 and not 4 leave u room to another card).
2 Snap: 3 is to way higher quantity and i like the ratio Snapcaster = X and Snap= X-1. Why 3 is too much? Snap doesn't draw cards. There's a balance required between the mage and this card, after all this card is like a duplicant of mage.
4 VoB and 2 TFK: this two are a couple, TFK is here just because of VoB and because it's the only card drawer that allow us to recycle 3 cards and filling the grave to later game/mid-combo. Why Vob? It's like cheating: my favourite card 1 cmc drawer was Opt, but think like this haven't we enough choices to do while playing this deck? And even if you master this deck, earlier in the game can you say with 100% sure that every choice you make is right? No, there's no way to understand that this early in the game, even if you are digging for lands. So we cheat a little and play with VoB, that doesn't requires us to choose anything in early game and that in late game/mid-combo with snapcaster it works well enough.
TKF vs Intuition: Intuition just leave u with 1 new card TFK gives u 3 new cards without giving info to your opponent, yes intuition gives u the card u need but u have lost to grave or to snapcaster the other 2 cards idk if it's that good...
I might think on replace TFK for Three Wishes but Three wishes only work after turn 3 TFK works on turn 3...
Piracy Charm: Confidant, Snapcaster, Vendilion Clique, Thalia, Noble, Dryad Harbor, Mother of Runes, Delver, Lackey, Grim lavamancer... The thing is it kills!
And finally the BF: i probably will put one on sb but first i have to find the equilibrium on my list (LOL) so i can find out what to remove from sb. BF + VoB: if u play Vob just for the 3 draw it wont work and using a card to make other card good is a waste, so i prefer to use VoB as a 1 cmc card > draw 1 > later snapcaster draw 3 if needed.
@Sepharus: So you decided for a non-snapcaster list or a snapcaster list?
I guess in my experience, it's pretty difficult to get Visions of Beyond to go off without using Brain Freeze; that being said, my friend Jeff was running a full 4 without any Brain Freezes at all (which is no longer the case, since I convinced him that Brain Freeze is nuts), so it's not the first I've heard of that. Thirst for Knowledge does do all of that, and I guess going +3 in the yard is a big number. Maybe I need to test it, but I think I would rather just have another Brain Freeze than a Thirst for Knowledge since it's the kill condition and always turns on Visions of Beyond, and is more or less uncounterable. And makes Brainstorm nuts. And costs less. Thirst does seem like a really good card for the deck, though. Just not sure I like it more than extra Snapcaster Mages. Maybe not though, as cutting some number of Snap/Snapcaster Mage for Thirst for Knowledge can help keep the combo going in the face of Graveyard hate. It's probably worth testing.
I am, however, glad to see you taking up Visions of Beyond. Card is insane.
As far as Piracy Charm goes though, I'm still unsure. It kills all of those guys, sure, but for the most part, once they're in play, they've done about all that they're going to do to me. It's better to kill the Clique or enemy Snapcaster Mage than to not kill it, but it seems like sideboarding in removal for those guys isn't a great plan since it's probably going to slow you down a lot. Something like Snap seems better since you can bounce those guys if you have to, but otherwise, you can use it to help you win faster. Now, if we're talking about things like Thalia or Ethersworn Canonist, then killing those guys actually is a step that has to happen to combo off. It does seem good as a meta-answer to the whole deck, given that you're seriously hampering their development, but I'm just not sure whether or not you should just win, rather than mess around with killing their x/1s.
Piracy charm: I don't really have an answer LOL just that it kills and you r fixing on the snap but remember the same creatures u bounce r the creatures that have trigger habilities that screw us... I found myself think on that - why kill this now when i could combo? - and many times i find the answer myself, although I sometimes question that answer (seams that I found myself in a loop), but the answer I give myself on that is this: vs counter war since remand isn't here anymore and discard or burn are very much arround u need to know how to obligate them to spend their counters (notice that midrange decks r getting better: harder counters big presure). So, what do I mean? Time is what we need and boucing is no longer an option, for one thing only Repeal seams effective in that chapter, because it replace itself! It's very important for you to understand that the amount of draw in this deck is vital and delicate.
For last, when u fight decks like UR or UWB, FOW is a 2 per 1 situation and u will sideout at least 2 of them since Flusterstorm is clearly better (- in GP Amsterdam I simply just bought my 3rd because it was the right card to use) so without Fow the game will be something like: we trow them bait that they really need to counter (normally this bait is Meditate) and they will loose cards. Please notice one thing: This Bait thing needs alot of training! But how can we just trow them things and survive the attacks? That's the real deal isnt it?
I normally side this:
-2 Fow; -1 High Tide; -2 TFK; + 3 fluster + 2 Charms...
TFK and VoB: u wont notice many differences at frist. Use VoB like a ciclying card (thats what I do). Think of this cards in this way: TFK + VoB AND Mage (later on). It's like u need to build the foundations before building a house, if u know what i mean...
Why isnt BF good?
At the moment u will play it: 6 cards in hand 1 is bf and other VoB.
1- its not an independent play u need storm
2- 3 mana
3- after u play the bf and the VoB if successfully you will get this: 4+3 new, now look at this u'll start to outline your strategy from the begin of the match u play VoB as a 1 cmc = 1 draw, eventually u will play TFK: 6 cards if successful u will get 3 new cards but your hand will stay with the same number of cards 6, grave filled by 3 (TFK + 2 discarded) so u will start to regulate the pace of the game its a matter of strategy and u will see that along combo u wont need to use flashback on meditate but u can use it on VoB, as i told: Snapcaster is an element of equilibrium
i'll probably change my sb: -1 piracy charm + 1 BF.... IDK...
Love the brainstorming! What it can be noticed at first glance is that VoB is not sinergic with flash of insight and snapcaster mage in a lesser extent.
TFK sounds good but i'm not pretty sure if i want to "loose" 2 cards to increase in 3 my yard for VoB before going off. 3 wishes comes to mind in this point.
I understand that 3w is great as 4th/5th meditate during we are going off but it's not so good for shaping your hand pre combo. TKF does i guess and during the combo you can discard useless lands...
Edit: Other thoughts came to my mind. My testing showed that VoB gives us 3 cards during combo, 80% of times, it's literaly an Ancestrl Recall while you go off. Do you think that TFK significally helps us to make VoB clearly different from Opt?
Last edited by GoldenCid; 04-30-2012 at 07:55 PM.
yes i do:
4 VoB and 2 TFK: this two are a couple, TFK is here just because of VoB and because it's the only card drawer that allow us to recycle 3 cards and filling the grave to later game/mid-combo. Why Vob? It's like cheating: my favourite card 1 cmc drawer was Opt, but think like this haven't we enough choices to do while playing this deck? And even if you master this deck, earlier in the game can you say with 100% sure that every choice you make is right? No, there's no way to understand that this early in the game, even if you are digging for lands. So we cheat a little and play with VoB, that doesn't requires us to choose anything in early game and that in late game/mid-combo with snapcaster it works well enough.
i'm on the other side of this argument though. i think BF is actually very useful even if you aren't using it for the kill.
Brain freeze powers VoB, allows you to mill yourself you find a FoI, or if you have a Snapcaster in hand, it also becomes a pseudo tutor.
One of my personal favorite play has been, mill you for 6 storms, VoB (draw 3), snapcaster VoB (draw 3) for 4 mana.
Brain freeze is also a powerful enabler in the deck. I like keeping a 5-6 count brain freeze on the stack, and after brainstorming allowing the next storm copy to get rid of the lands i put on the top of my library, then finally remanding the original copy when i need to to finish them off.
i currently run 2 copies of BF in my MD, and im quite happy with that number. 3 would be a little too clunky.
Listen, that's quite cool and all but (there's always a but! LOL): how many times do u find yourself using that for getting advantaged in the game? Well idk, but i guess never since that requires not only too much resources, but also specific conditions that doesnt necessary come together, u said it yourself: 6 storm and specific cards, notice this: your 6 storm + VoB (7 storm) + Snapcaster (8 storm and 3 new cards in your hand) why not Flashback BF (9+6 storm)? So after all 1 BF is enough (1 in main 1 in sb).
Now i can give u an opportunity to justify 2 BF: Counterbalance and the trigger-stack effect... My answer to that is patience (because its not an easy trick) and in post sb side in the BF or just pick it up as soon as u can with C. Wish...
Look, find my older posts and u will see that no1 would stick to the 2 BF MD more than me, but with Snapcaster why do u need more bf?
Hey all, I'm just starting out with this deck and was wondering what everyone thought about the list I've been practicing with. Should I change anything about it?
MAIN DECK -
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Thought Scour
2 Turnabout
4 Cunning Wish
2 Three Wishes
4 High Tide
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
2 Intuition
1 Echoing Truth
4 Meditate
1 Flusterstorm
4 Reset
4 Force of Will
1 Snap
12 Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
SIDEBOARD -
1 Three Wishes
1 Comandeer
1 Twincast
1 Cackling Counterpart
1 Brain Freeze
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Snap
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Turnabout
4 Leyline of the Void
the 6 storm count was just an example, and not that difficult to achieve. the point is, previously, brain freeze was effectively a dead card earlier until it was time for the kill, which was why cutting down to 1 was perhaps the right choice.
My argument is, if BF powers up VoB so much more consistently than any other means (even in high tide i am stuggling to hit 20 in gy without bf) and has the opportunity to turn your ScM into tutors, doesn't it warrant more than 1 slot md? it has now become an enabler on top of being a finisher.
Nah its not true Snapcaster doesn't tutor anything even if u have one of each card in your grave (less of X on deck more of X on grave, use meditate, that's the primary draw engine of the deck, and u'll see that). Snapcaster is a recycler not a tutor, fell free to disagree but....
Let me put the things this way: U have to combo to draw 3 cards... that doesnt sound that much resilient i am right? Moreover u need to successfully cast VoB and/or Snapcaster...
The other thing is while u try to set up VoB as a Recall as soon as possible, I don't try to do that. For me the purpose for Vob is: early game 1cmc drop = 1 draw, the Ancestral thing is only for stability and to lower the fizzle rate...
Ah and Bf doesn't draw cards nor works as a mechanical card. (Before in the past long lost it would interact with FoI but it was very risky) What I meant is that this tricks with bf are solutions that u need to know but not strong plays... They are resources, and this is why solidarity and non of the other decks provides: a full pack of different solutions!
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