[Deck] Dredge

[Digital Devil]

After bridges got extracted, did you win only with the Ichorids and the remaining tokens?

I won with 1x Narcomoeba and 2x Ichorid beatdown - I didn't even have the chance to trigger Bridge from Below because they were extracted as soon as my opponent saw 'em.

[der_agibert]

Anybody have gerry's deck list for tonight? I wouldn't mind seeing what he came up with after the last SCG for changes to his list.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=46660

I really like his list as I came to the point of eschewing Dread Return from the main entirely, running 2 of them SB currently. Unless you want to/have to win combo-esque via Iona, Elesh Norn, *insert random "I win" creature* they always came to me as irrelevant and "win more". Narcos get sacced to Therapies, Ichorids die on their own. You just get your Zombies one way or another, even without DRing. Running 1x Darkblast and 3rd Citadel (I really dislike Paradise for not allowing T1 Lootings/PImp, T2 Coliseum and making me more vulnerable to Daze) instead.

[Gui]

@ Digital Devil

List? :D

[Izor]

@ Digital Devil

List? :D

I'm interested too, mainly I'd like to know if you played Tireless Tribe in your list and how important they were.

I always feel like Tireless Tribe improves the RUG Delver matchup like no other card in the deck ever could.

[GerryT]

He made 11th place. His deck looked like it swapped a dread return for a thug and some other subtle change.

His sideboard had some changes. With Blazing Archon and Nether Shadow being the most stand out.

@GerryT: Did Blazing Archon help much against those show and tell decks? And did Nether Shadow help much versus those surgical extractions?

Archon would have helped had I played against any Show and Tell decks I'm sure.

Nether Shadow was slightly better than Bloodghast since I didn't need an Undiscovered Paradise (or have to sandbag a land or play Dakmor Salvage).

Matches went:

Reanimator (2-1)
Belcher (2-1)
Zoo (2-1)
Hypergenesis (1-2)
Merfolk (2-0)
RUG (2-0)
Mono-Blue Control (2-1)
MUD (1-2)
RUG (2-0)

Some rough matchups in the first couple of rounds, but I beat the "real" decks easily enough. Almost certainly could have beaten MUD for t8 but I'm a buffoon.

[feline]

Congrats on what you did get (to the above post), anything with a winning record is still something you can talk about >^,^<

Also when I saw 1 Dread return that made me think about that, and I realize how it's quite rare to use that twice! or even need to when you sac ichorid/narcomeba etc and get a buncha tokens even if the D return gets countered or the target get's sword to plowshare'd or whatever. I guess the only other thing after that would be the argument of "if I only run 1 dread return, It might get stuck on the bottom of the deck -sometimes- basically, getting stuck without it when you really want it! but being dredge, you can go through so much of your deck so fast, you'll obviously see it way more often than you will not.

Also thank you for running 4 cabal therapy, i see lists that have gone like "ok squeeze in 4 faithless looting" since it came out, and they cut 1 cabal therapy to help squeeze them in, and I have never felt comfortable about that since cabal therapy is just so awesome here! >^,^<

[HokusSchmokus]

They worked out all right, and they were essential in some circumstances. I am kind of shifting around right now but the last sideboard strategy I used in last week's local was incredibly good.

The local Dredgers tweaked the Quad version's board. It looks like this atm:
4 Nature's Claim
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Ancient Grudge

So we are now using the old differ-your-threats strategy.

[GnuHouse]

Archon would have helped had I played against any Show and Tell decks I'm sure.

Nether Shadow was slightly better than Bloodghast since I didn't need an Undiscovered Paradise (or have to sandbag a land or play Dakmor Salvage).

Matches went:

Reanimator (2-1)
Belcher (2-1)
Zoo (2-1)
Hypergenesis (1-2)
Merfolk (2-0)
RUG (2-0)
Mono-Blue Control (2-1)
MUD (1-2)
RUG (2-0)

Some rough matchups in the first couple of rounds, but I beat the "real" decks easily enough. Almost certainly could have beaten MUD for t8 but I'm a buffoon.

So what would you consider to be the "real" decks? And are you saying that the Hypergenesis deck wasn't real? ;) (seriously, that match was kinda cool to watch)

What happened in your MUD match?

[Izor]

The local Dredgers tweaked the Quad version's board. It looks like this atm:
4 Nature's Claim
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Ancient Grudge

So we are now using the old differ-your-threats strategy.

Why Ashen Ghoul over Nether Shadow and why the Paradise? I thought whoever puts Paradise into a Dredge deck in Germany is shot in the head?

[NecroYawgmoth]

It's only 1 Paradise, because you board lands when you board Ashen Ghoul, and you don't want to Bolt yourself too often. 3 Tarnished hurts very often so its a 2/1 Split now.

Ashen Ghouls are relevant when you have no other critters / no bridges, while Shadows rarely are.

Nether Shadows need Phantasmagorian to be good, and are most of the time DR fodder instead of beats.

[jares]

The combo finish makes it a bit easier to play with and win games out of nowhere.

I would agree with this observation for the following reasons:

• The deck becomes much more linear when built around the combo finish, and thus, the range of decisions that have to be made is lessened.
• Because games are usually decided in a fewer number of turns via the combo finish, there are also fewer opportunities to make critical decisions, and thus, there would also be fewer opportunities to make mistakes (e.g. missing triggers, missing blind therapies, misplayed combat phases, etc.).
• The threshold for error is more forgiving because the deck is not built around "winning incrementally", but rather, on one big alpha-strike.
• It's probably easier to take note of the combo pieces that you need to go-off (Dredger - Draw Enabler - Free Creature - DR - DR Target) rather than assess the board state to find a means of gaining "positional or material advantage" which may or may not be there.

This almost makes me feel like I'm comparing the combo version to a control version of Dredge, haha.

Cheers,
jares

[Mojeh]

I would most certainly agree, I just wonder if this has to do with some 'weird' lists and 'bad' players doing great results.

[K1w1]

As Hokus already said, we went to the local tourney with the quadlazer + this sideboard.

Now the report.

Game 1 against Canadian:
G1: He had no counters for my turn one LED, LED, Looting, breakthough, Land, dredger.
G2: He kept a mull into 6 without a land. He had a surgical extraction + 2 Magma spray. The situation was this: I had a Putrid Imp in play and 2 in my hand. In my grave were Ashen Ghoul, Ichorid and i decided to discard both Pimps in response to the Ichorid trigger. He wants to extract both Pimps but i paid a black mana to recover my Ashen Ghoul. After some rounds i won.

1-0

Game 2 against Affinity:
G1: Again Turn 2-3 kill.
G2: He kept a hand with 2 Darksteel Citadels and Extirpate, but he had no black mana to use it. He drew a 3rd citadel instead. So i therapied his extirpate and won afterwards.

2-0

Game 3 against Maverick /r
G1: He conceded, due to 4 bridges, 3 therapies, 3 moeba in my grave after turn 2.
G2: I had study, looting, led, dredger, land, therapied him and saw nothing relevant. He topdecked Knight of the Reliquary and i didn't find any therapies to make more zombies to race the knight. Bog wins.
G3: Same like G2, i had 3 zombies and a thug in play, he had nothing, topdecked a crypt ( why not ... ) and i attacked him each turn for 7. The funniest thing is, he had three mana and waste my city of brass and topdecked a batterskull. No mana Oops.

3-0

Game 4 against Esperstoneblade:
G1: He won with a batterskull. Too bad -.-
G2: He won with six lingering souls tokens due to tarnished citadel... If i had a gemstone mine or paradise maybe not, because i would have 3 Ashen Ghouls, 3 Ichorids in play to win.

3-1

Game 5 against High Tide:
G1: I'm faster with tokens after wish into extraction into ichorids.
G2: He mulled into 6 and kept a non-lander and double extraction. Hmm, ok. Land - therapy - Extraction - GG

4-1

Game 6 against MUD:
G1: Turn 2-3 kill.
G2: Chalice 1 + Metalworker + Crypt + Forgemaster etc. won him the game.
G3: Chalice 1 + Metalworker + Crypt + Staff of Domination into endless combo.

4-2

Game 7 against Reanimator:
G1: After throwing some cards in my grave, i therapy him and he played entomb in response into Elesh Norn. I took a look in my grave and saw a 11/11 grave troll. And he already had Animate Dead in grave. Let's say Reanimate. He had Exhume. Ok. he recovered Elesh and i recovered GGT. GGT won me the game.
G2: He kept while i mulled into 5. We both started with Leyline, but he won with Show and Tell, because i had no lands in my hand and he said green with Iona. ( Nature's Claim.)
G3: We talked a bit and we said we split the price and he gave me the win, because he wanted into top 8 to qualify myself for a special tourney in some month. We played this game and i won because he had no leyline. He played Show and Tell into Iona and me into narcomoeba. He said black and i lol'd. Topdeck Looting <3
Narcomoebas blocked Iona while i got zombies.

5-2

Now it was bad, that i splitted the price :D

And sure, what happens? 9. out of 67 -.-

The other two players went 5-2 and 3-4 with the same decklist.

K1w1

[plimplam]

@: GerryT

How do you side against RUG? Cz sometimes they run surgicals and sometimes artifact hate..

[HokusSchmokus]

K1w1:
Also, I Top 4ed using a different board:P
And Brot Top8ed, too.

[Digital Devil]

List? :D

I'm interested too, mainly I'd like to know if you played Tireless Tribe in your list and how important they were.

I always feel like Tireless Tribe improves the RUG Delver matchup like no other card in the deck ever could.

I played the following list:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [OD] Careful Study
2 [TSP] Dread Return
1 [RAV] Darkblast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 4 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 [ISD] Memory's Journey
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 [GP] Angel of Despair
----------------------------------------------------------------------

As usual, Tireless Tribe was outstanding - it won g1 against RUG by itself, blocking a 4/5 Tarmogoyf for about 2-3 turns - by the time my opponent had 2x 5/6s I was already in a favorable board position. I like the card so much I always choose to play non-LED though I have Faithless Looting and the money to buy 4x LED.

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

The 1x dread maindeck it's a solid choice for most metagame, better than Griselbrand, that's only a win more.
Archon is the best choice vs. sneack&show, but the sideboarding in led dredge isn't clear for me.
Can you help me, for example with the Gerry Thompon's decklist, the best way to sideboarding?

[Izor]

As usual, Tireless Tribe performed egregiously - it won g1 against RUG by itself, blocking a 4/5 Tarmogoyf for about 2-3 turns - by the time my opponent had 2x 5/6s I was already in a favorable board position. I like the card so much I always choose to play non-LED though I have Faithless Looting and the money to buy 4x LED.

Thumbs up.

I fully understand your argumentation. I still bring the two decklists to tournaments and only decide last minute whether to play LED or not.

LEDless still rocks. It's rocked for years and it will keep on rocking. And the RUG matchup is significantly better than for LED. The only downside is that the Sneak Show matchup is probably slightly worse due to the lower speed and Sneak Show seems to be tier 1 right now.


@ K1W1:

Congratz on the finish.

As of the discussion about your new sidebard; why does Shadow need Phantasmagorian and Ashen Ghoul not? They both have the same clause, the only difference is that Ghoul has two more power, but is impossible to hardcast and that it needs a mana everytime he wants to come back.

[K1w1]

@ K1W1:

Congratz on the finish.

As of the discussion about your new sidebard; why does Shadow need Phantasmagorian and Ashen Ghoul not? They both have the same clause, the only difference is that Ghoul has two more power, but is impossible to hardcast and that it needs a mana everytime he wants to come back.

Thx.
I never said Shadow needs Phantasmagorian. And that's the thing. He has two more power. In the quadlaser you need this two more power to win against decks which extracted Ichorid and Moebas.
In the Flayerlist it is ok to have Nether Shadow, because you only need three creatures, not creatures with high power. ( Dread return Flayer )
That's true, but he stays in play and this can be important sometimes. And with a City of Brass, there is no problem!

I'm also thinking to add a 2nd paradise for a tarnished citadel. As i played at sunday, it was REALLY nice to have.
I also thought the paradise is a bad card but now i know it's not like that. The only bad thing about the paradise is, that you have to take it back into your hand and that you can't activate a coliseum turn 2, except you have a LED.

K1w1

Ps: @ Hokus : Did you play the same SB?

[Michael Keller]

Updated links in the primer. I'll be sure to try and expand the entire primer exponentially as soon as possible.