@Arianrhod
There's definitely a Primeval Titan in the list. You must have overlooked it. I mostly agree about Thrun though. However, the red list is the only list I like him in. Even though we're not playing Standard, Wolf Running a Thrun is still pretty hot. The Thoughtseize is in the deck at the moment because sometimes getting double black in the early game is annoying when you have Groves and you need to play around Wasteland more carefully and I still wanted a little more early disruption/information. I have considered swapping it for another Lily or Innocent Blood. Testing it out again certainly isn't going to hurt anything.
Yeah, so there is. I definitely just glossed right over it - my bad! I guess Thrun is better with Wolf Run, but Wolf Run just feels like a worse Valakut to me, so meh. You have a valid point about the double black...that is a little awkward. have you considered an Urborg? That might help with that problem a little. I'd also recommend at least considering a Wood Elves - I'm finding that it's a solid GSZ target that does a good job of fixing your mana in builds that have wonky mana requirements (ie, my Valakut version. stupid mountains.) or a lot of utility lands.
Urborg and Wood Elves wouldn't be bad to try. The problem is the same with all of these lists is that space is really tight. As for the Valakut version; it's very cool but I don't really like it or think it's necessary. Right now I really like P-Fires and REBs.
Yeah, we feel roughly the same way about the other. While I recognize that PFire is awesome with Lily and really good at mowing down tribal, I think it can be a little too slow and durdly. With Valakut you can race most decks in legacy -- hit 7 lands and resolve Scapeshift FTW. Whenever I feel like playing red cards, which admittedly isn't too often, my Valakut build races our local burn player. It's actually pretty amusing.
I think we can safely agree that REB is universally awesome. For reference, here's my latest Valakut build, since we've got a little Red discussion going on here.
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness
2x Wood Elves
3x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Thragtusk
1x Broodmate Dragon
1x Primeval Titan
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Burning Wish
2x Scapeshift
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Night's Whisper
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Taiga
2x Bayou
3x Badlands
2x Stomping Grounds
2x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Mountain
//SB
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Tsunami
1x Virtue's Ruin
1x Scapeshift
1x Reanimate
1x Haunting Echoes
1x Damnation
1x Innocent Blood
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Regrowth
1x Thoughtseize
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Reforge the Soul
Note: don't see a wishboard and assume that it comes at the cost of having a sideboard. I can and do regularly sideboard with this version. I just leave the best 1 or 2 targets in the sideboard, and then switch other things around based on what's better/worse in a given matchup. One of the neat tricks you can do is actually to board a Green Sun out, so you can Wish for one later.
I view this as the "combo" Nic Fit list, although it's perfectly capable of playing out attrition/control if it has to. Also note that I haven't actually tried Night's Whisper yet. It looks interesting and worth a shot, anyway.
@Arianrhod, your rant makes a lot of sense. I'll explain my thoughts on it later, but I still like sphinx mainboard and I'll try to expand on that
Just a brainfart brainstorm. Is it possible to classify each nic fit variation for strengths and weaknesses, like a triangle or a square?
For example:
Nic Fit White: Good vs Fair, Average vs Aggro, Weak vs Combo
Nic Fit Red: Good vs Fair, Rapes Aggro, shits to Combo
Nic Fit Blue: Fantastic vs Fair, Weak vs Aggro, 50/50 vs Combo
Nic Fit G/B: No idea? (Never tested this)
Nic Fit Pod: No idea? (Never tested this)
Now, this could be completely wrong and off from the true strength and weaknesses of each variation, but I was just thinking that some of you guys are liking to play Nic Fit red due to good aggro matchup vs Fish and others, whereas some of us likes Blue for lategame and absurd abuse of cards, and theres the White, which I would consider "Standard" for Nic Fit due to the fact that it's the original shell of the deck.
I feel like we can make a classification, but please, go ahead and shit on this idea.
It's an interesting thought, although I suspect that the actual relationships are a lot more complicated that a simple triangle or square. I'm trying to classify each subarchetype as I'm working through the primer, and so far this is my hunch:
White - pretty good vs fair, pretty good vs aggro, decent vs combo
Red - good vs fair, astonishing vs aggro, decent-good vs combo
Blue - astonishing vs fair, questionable vs aggro, good vs combo
G/B - good vs fair, good vs aggro, good vs combo.
I don't consider Pod a separately subarchetype, but rather a subsubarchetype of White.
TL;DR: G/B is the solid rock root of all of them. It has even matchups against basically anything, but it can also lose to basically anything. It doesn't really shine anywhere except in a somewhat above average "fair" matchup, just off of the strength of the archetype vs fair decks in general. White has infinite technology, and it really depends on how white is built, frankly. Rector builds are amazing vs aggro decks and fair decks, but lose some points on combo decks. The "standard" GBW with white just for sb, Swords, and Sun Titan tends to have better sb options than the Rector builds for combo decks (Canonist especially), but despite having 4x Swords, they're weaker to aggro and fair decks IMO. Red is our combo variant, and shits on aggro appropriately. Blue is our control variant, and outclasses fair decks while having a strong combo matchup and a weak aggro game.
Note that this is assuming the Blue build in question has additional discard, Extirpates, and counterspells of various types in the sideboard. If you built a Blue build and didn't put any of those things in the board for some reason, your combo matchup would not be good. Therefore, the above assumptions are all based on how I have my lists set up. Note also, though, that PFire still shits on aggro, just for a different reason than Valakut. I think it's safe to say that Red Nic Fit is just generally amazing vs aggro.
Also, the White build isn't actually the original. The straight G/B is the original build. G/B/W came along a few weeks after Tao started the thread.
Thats a pretty long TL;DR right there :)
The only reason that I put pod in a seperate entity is because the only time that I've seen pod lists play were aggro based rather than attrition based. Straight G/B I also never played, but I'll trust your judgement on that.
I think this was talked about earlier in the thread but has anyone tried pattern of rebirth and put bunch of dungrove elders in a straight B/G version? Best case is that mid game you can deed or tower away which ever dude has the pattern on it end step and swing in with your spaghetti monster next turn.
If I had time to playtest I probably wouldn't be asking this question, and would most likely be a much better player, so let me know what you think about the deck idea.
@moseby,
It has been discussed earlier and I have tested it too. A very Forest heavy list is great with Dungroves and Primal Hunter. What I disliked about it was that even though Hexproof blanks removal, the other Nic Fit lists also tend to blank removal. Dungroves also get outclassed by Knights and fall to Deed just the same.
I would like to add to the different color combination discussion that the GB list is by far the strongest one against aggro. It is also the weakest one against dedicated control decks like Stoneblade (even) and Miracle ctrl (even-unfavorable). Combo decks are entirely sideboard dependant for GB as well. One of the main strengths of GB is that is doesn't flinch against Wasteland/Stifle decks and fights back Burn/Sligh very convincingly. It is very strong in a heavy Tempo/Aggro (Sligh, Burn, Tribal, RUG, Mav) meta but quite helpless against non-storm/aggro combo (Sneak Show, High Tide) and dedicated control decks (Tez, Miracle).
EDIT: Why is Brainstorm better than Top in any Nic Fit list?
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Because it can be pitched to FoW, which is only relevant in the blue list. Other lists are fine with top and I prefer top over brainstorm if I wasn't playing blue
I prefer Negate to FoW by far in the blue list. It is much better than Mana Leak because I originaly side in counters for Sneak Show and other combo decks. It isn't quite like Flusterstorm but it is much less situational, plays much smoother along with discard spells, and can be sided in against dedicated control decks to counter troublesome Planeswalkers and even GY hate, preventing them from breaking the engines.
I think Top is better than Brainstorm for several reasons:
-It is colorless, therefore it aleviates the blue requirements, allowing a more stable manabase;
-It is reusable, we have the mana to spin it every turn;
-The two first reasons also allows us to choose our Oracle flips much more often;
-Free instant draw when need be
Other observations I have made:
-Darkblast is not that useful when Cabal Pit is availlable. A singleton Darkblast is most likely to be in a Gift pile, and at that point Pit/Loam is superior.
-Raven's Crime is too weak. I never want to throw lands to my GY and I never side Crime against any matchup (TS and Negate are better).
-Gilded Drake is worthless as a SB card with Shriekmaw and Fleshbag in the main. Knowing that you are Nic Fit and that you may or may not have those cards will likely cause your opponent to side out SnT for Throught the Breach.
I am currently reworking my BUG fit list to make blue a simple splash. That way, I can avoid Islandwalk and Submerge if need be and diminish the chances of having my manabase disrupted or flat out crap on me.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Been lurking for a long time now while building and testing my Nic Fit deck and ouch, this is so true. I guess the initial thought was "Hey, with this deck I can use _____ (insert 4-5cc+ card here)". Ah well.I've seen so many terrible Nic Fit lists where the builder/pilot is like oh hey, this card is good in EDH...let's try it!!
In any case, I find the deck to be really fun and strong. I'll probably stay on the route of GBw.
Negate actually makes a lot of sense compared to Mana Leak. I mean, I guess you could board in Leaks vs like Maverick, but that's really questionable. And even then, Negate still hits their Green Sun's, so it isn't dead if we feel like boarding it in.
I think that an argument could be made for running both Top and Brainstorm. The problem is, again, space. Also, I really don't like Brainstorming when you have a Top out (or vice versa). They don't play nicely together at all. While the synergy between oracle and Top is just as sweet as with Brainstorm, I feel like Brainstorm is still the better card overall. Top can only draw you one of the cards you're seeing, whereas Brainstorm draws all of them and puts two blanks back to be gotten rid of. The best argument in favor of Top over Brainstorm is that it's reusable, and I don't think that Brainstorm can realistically win that argument unless we're talking about Jace. I guess the best I could say is that Brainstorm is a much more powerful card, but Top is a much more consistent one. I could go either way, personally -- I think I'll side with Brainstorm in my version, but you're more than welcome to go the Top route.
@Wortwelt: I will try my damnedest to get that Cabal Therapy guide up by the end of the day. I was originally planning on doing it yesterday, but I ended up going to the county fair with some friends instead. Sorry!
Thanks for the input. I liked that Gifts made Nightmare more relevant, but it was really slow. With FoF, you get the cards you want immediately and don't need to Witness / GSZ Witness for them first. Also, learning to play Gifts is indeed something I can't afford. So I'm sticking with FoF for now.Originally Posted by Arianrhod
The Problem with Strixes is that Forked Bolt is incredibly good against them. They also let Goyf grow at an absurd rate since they are artifacts, too. Extirpates didn't only screw with their Brainstorms and Ponders, but sucked out Delvers and Mongeese, too. With Forces, you are probably right.
Negate sounds very good. I will run two in the board and see how that goes. Thanks, Qweerios!
I'll post my current list as soon as I get home from Uni.
@Arianrhod, RE: Therapy list. No worries. Thanks for all the support!
Ghent will be my fourth sanctioned Legacy Event. It's okay that it'll be a learning experience. I'm not at a point at which I'd be terribly disappointed when I lose. That doesn't mean that I do not want to win, though. I'm just saying that I'm more than fine to see Ghent as a tournament test for the blue list. If I wanted to win that badly, I would probably have picked up RUG Delver, Maverick or SnT Griselbrand, but I don't enjoy what these decks are doing.
I like casting Grave Titan.
Alright, here's my Cabal Therapy guide (it went quicker than I thought it would!). I'll preface by pointing out that there's a lot more to Cabal Therapy than this. You can tell a lot by gauging your opponent's reactions, posture, and a thousand other little tells that you just get with time and experience. But if you're short on experience and time, here's a rough guide. You can do a lot worse than this.
Stoneblade
[When you are on the] Play: Brainstorm
[When you are on the] Draw: Hold.
If you're on the play, try to disrupt a shaky keep by taking Brainstorm, which also makes your future Therapies better. If you're on the draw, you want to hold your Therapy so that you can either use it after they Stoneforge, or on turn 3 naming Jace TMS.
RUG
Play: Stifle
Draw: Stifle
It's our number one enemy in this matchup. If they don't have it, congrats, you have information and the go-ahead for Explorer to ramp past their tempo. Also keep in mind that they give you information on their hand from Delver. Write it down.
Maverick
Play: Noble Hierarch
Draw: Knight of the Reliquary
Mid-late game, it's usually best to name Green Sun's Zenith or Swords to Plowshares, unless you have information from Fauna Shaman or some such. Hierarch on the play can really disrupt them, because maverick players tend to lean on their Hierarchs a lot more than they should...especially with like Savannah Hierarch x2 Cradle [cards] type of hands. You can really punish them for that. Also watch out for Mindcensor, although usually they're just flash it out in res. to Therapy just in case.
High Tide
Play: Brainstorm
Draw: High Tide
If you whiff on High Tide, use your own judgment based on the information you get. Postboard, if you can bin a Time Spiral for Extirpate, that's sex in a can.
TES and ANT
Play: LED
Draw: Dark Ritual
Ideally you want to name mana on the call, and then business on the flashback. Doesn't always work that way though...be prepared to be flexible here.
Doomsday
Play: Doomsday
Draw: Doomsday
I don't know enough about this matchup to know if this is actually correct or not. I guess you could name Top on the play and annoy them that way. But at the end of the day if you can hit their Doomsday, the matchup gets awkward for them and gives you more time to disrupt/beat. This is a really awkward matchup in general.
Goblins
Play: Lackey
Draw: Matron
You could also make a case for Ringleader on the draw.
Merfolk
Play: Vial
Draw: Master of the Pearl Trident [Lord of Atlantis]
I've seen lists running like 4 Master 2 Lord, so you probably want to call Master. Midgame, name Phantasmal Image. You don't want them copying a Grave Titan.
Elves
Play: Glimpse
Draw: Glimpse
Glimpse is public enemy number one. Symbiote is a good take too, since it helps them recover from Deed and fuels a lot of their engines.
Nic Fit mirror (assuming G/B or GBw [Swords/Titan version, no Rector]
Play: Green Sun's Zenith
Draw: Green Sun's Zenith
The mirror of this deck is pretty awkward. You should be favored with the blue version in general. GSZ is probably their best card vs the blue version, so I'd go for that. Use your own discretion.
Reanimator
Play: Reanimate
Draw: Animate Dead
To my knowledge, most reanimator decks are shaving Exhume. If you have reason to believe that he's running Exhume, name that -- Animate Dead can at least be killed with Deed. Note: if you're on the play postboard, there's a good chance you want to name Thoughtseize to protect an Extirpate. This is only if you have an Extirpate in hand though IMO. Remember to keep an eye out for Show and Tell. S&T is slower here though, since they only run like 2 City of Traitors. You can take that on the flashback. Also if you have an Extirpate, don't be afraid to name Griselbrand and then make them all go away.
Sneak/Show
Play: Show and Tell
Draw: Griselbrand
Miracles
Play: Brainstorm
Draw: Counterbalance
Belcher
Play: LED
Draw: Seething Song
This is awkward and possibly incorrect. It might be that naming Burning Wish is just better. Nothing about this matchup is good, though, so it probably doesn't matter. I'd say if you take their main mana producers, it should slow them a few turns while you get more discard online to take their business....but unlike ANT/TES, they run a pisston of mana.
Dredge
Play: LED
Draw: Breakthrough
BUG Delver
Play: Stifle
Draw: Stifle
Same as RUG here, really.
BUG Control
Play: Brainstorm
Draw: Hold
Same as with Stoneblade.
Burn
Play: Lightning Bolt
Draw: Fireblast
Midgame, look at their graveyard and see what burn spells they've used. Keep in mind that Burn tends to run as many 4-ofs are possible, so you can maximize your chances by naming a burn spell that they haven't used yet.
U/R Delver
Play: Delver
Draw: Daze
Daze is an odd name here. The thing is that you don't really want to get Dazed while you're setting up. It's also a blue card, which means if they have Force in hand, their Force gets worse if you hit (and if they do, you take it on the flashback). You just want to get to Thragtusk here, pref. with Nightmare active. Daze is a serious hindrance to that plan, because most of the time you're going to have to GSZ for exact. Watch out for Spell Pierce too.
Death and Taxes
Play: Vial
Draw: Phyrexian Revoker
Deed is our best card here. We know and they know it, and Revoker is their answer to it. Keep an eye out for Mangara, too....don't let that happen if you can avoid it.
MUD
Play: Grim Monolith
Draw: Forgemaster
Take this with a grain of salt....if you're on the draw and they lead like Seat of the Synod -> Voltaic Key, or just 1-mana land pass, you still name Monolith. Monolith is the most dangerous card in their deck, with Metalworker as a close second. If you can take away their fast mana, the deck tends to implode on itself a lot.
Hope that helps.
As far as Forked Bolt goes, if they Forked Bolt 2 Strixes, or like a Strix and an Oracle, you don't care. You've already 3-for-1'd them. Sure, it makes Goyf huge, but we aren't really scared of Goyf. He dies easily or gets chumped all day. RUG doesn't run that many Forked Bolts anyway, and if they're leaving them in postboard, there's 2-3 more cards in their deck that don't do much to you. If they're spending that mana on being aggressive, that means they aren't filtering their deck or deploying another Goyf (or an Ooze, god forbid). It's also one less mana that they have to Spell Pierce your Deed next turn.
And no problem RE support -- that's what the thread is here for. I'd very much like to see this thread as one of the best places for discussion on the Source, and building an environment where debate can be fostered is an important step in that process. I'd much rather see people posting frequently here than just lurking and watching 2-3 people actually work on the deck. The whole is improved by the few.
Also, I actually think you have a better shot of winning with this deck than you do with any of the "mainstream" ones. This deck has a very serious rogue factor going for it...especially the blue version. People will have sideboard plans for, and extensive testing vs, RUG/maverick/Griselbrand. This deck is powerful enough to keep up, but it's under the radar and not given the respect it deserves....people won't know wtf you're doing, which will give you a huge edge that you wouldn't get by being just another sheep.
As for negate, it does sound better in the late game than mana leak, but really, how much more does negate do than mana leak? Most legacy decks are not going to be equipped to pay for mana leak, nor is any deck going to be like "Its nic fit! They run counters in sideboard!". Mana leak hits creatures as well. That can and will be very relevant in many games, like against maverick, RUG, and so on. There will be situations where mana leak will suck because they already have like 10 lands, and if they already have 10 lands, so do you. You won't need a mana leak nor negate at that point because you will have the resources to fight otherwise. IMO, the only case where negate beats mana leak is against High Tide due to the nature of High Tide itself. If we are playing High Tide at that point, then we already are bringing in the flutterstorms and the FoWs in. Adding negates to that mix or even mana leaks does dilute our deck alot more than we would like. I'll stick with mana leak for now.
@Arianrhod: I like your list, but I did the following changes:
- Kokusho (I think he is mostly just Win-More.)
- Fierce Empath (Just Sun Titan to target...)
Maybe -Phyrexian Arena (Never had a situation where I wanted it or I wanted out to play it out of my hand...just with Confinement PB, but there I can tutor for Nightmare and go in a loop with Witness)
+ Darkblast
+ Kitchen Finks (Best drop under cc4 imo)
+ ? (Innocent Blood? Maybe without Finks and another Blood)
Also I'm thinking about cutting Pulse or Vindicate for another Blood
What are your experience with this cards?
Team aYb
Selling my Japanese Legacy Collection. PM me what you need ;)
My mcm-account. Selling overseas
RE: Therapy Guide
I agree with pretty much everything Arianrhod said except one. I think the first name in the Nic Fit mirror on the play should absolutely be Sensei's Divining Top. It's probably the single most important card in the mirror since whoever has a Top out the longest is heavily favored to win. This is the grindiest matchup ever and the card selection is of the utmost importance.
I can agree with that, HoneyT. The only question is that I'm not sure if the G/B stockish lists run Top or not. I know Europe has a much, much higher density of Nic Fit players, which is why I included it on the list at all....and I also know that almost all of Europe's players run G/B or GBw with Swords and Titan as the only white cards. Stuff like the BUG version or, outside of one or two examples, Red versions are pretty much much unheard of. I've also never heard of a Rector version from Europe. So I tried to base my Therapy call around that meta information. I haven't actually looked at the lists on Council.es enough lately. Top is probably still right though, because even if they don't have it in their deck, you're fine with them not having it. I still say GSZ on the draw though.
@Windux -- while I disagree with cutting Kokusho (which then leads to disagreeing with Empath), Darkblast is pretty sweet, especially if there's a lot of elves in your area. Finks is less exciting, since it persists. You actually usually want things to straight up die in this deck, due to Nightmare. The fact that is has persist can mess up Nightmare loops. Innocent Blood is a card that has a lot of support in the thread. I think it's a little more situational as opposed to just the nuts, but it's a solid option. I'd also consider a Fleshbag Marauder, since it's an innocent blood with legs which is also Sun Titan-able (and can sac itself, so you can literally Blood every turn with Titan). Cutting Arena feels terrible. It just wins games...especially control mirrors with BUG and Stoneblade. Like, if you're playing vs one of those two decks, you literally bee-line for Arena, and then you win the game. It can be a little dangerous sometimes, but it's just a really good card.
@Windux Replace Finks with Thragtusk and you're good to go
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