Nedleeds please take your whining to the appropriate thread.
It's uncool to hijack someone's thread to beat a dead horse.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ation./page191
I won't lose any sleep either way. I'd prefer some more unbannings first, then when it becomes obvious what the enabler is (as if it isn't already) deal with it then. But as I state in my post, unbanning certain cards would just see them land in Brainstorm decks.Originally Posted by wcm8
I think combo TES/ANT/SneakShow needs Brainstorm more than control. Control is looking for redundant defensive spells to survive early (FoW, Pierce, Snare). They can afford to Ponder to fix mana and pass the turn. Combo (at least in Legacy) is filled with redundant cards that are awful in multiples (Sneak Attack, Show and Tell, Hive Mind) ... or ... cards that you need later (the TES deck searching early for protection or discard and then abusing Brainstorm later on the stack). Combo also can't afford to have a 3 land opener, at least without a fetch and a Brainstorm. Control decks are often looking to build mana past 4 or 5. Starting with 3 lands a Ponder, a Jace, a Swords and a Force is probably a fine control hand (i.e. they are fine with playing lands for the first 4-6 turns).
Aggro only needs Brainstorm more because they made the best aggro creature blue. The articles author puts much of the blame (for various formats) on Delver. I think an 18 land (14 color producing) deck without 4 x Brainstorm would have a tough time getting through 8-10 rounds without getting what it deserves for such a nutty mana base.
The article is about what legacy needs. Thanks for your insightful and fact filled response.
The author specifically asked for people to not derail his thread...
This particular topic has been beat to death. There is no point in discussing it further.
You aren't changing anyone's mind. I'm surprised your posts haven't been moderated.
Format diversity in my estimation would be not having 80% of the top 8's at every major event having a play set of a non-land card. Most other cards that met that criteria were banned (see SotF, see Mental Misstep, see Gush)
- There's half of your problem. Stop assuming your estimation is fact.
I'm pointing out how Brainstorm limits design space (see Targeted Discard as a format helper, or Miracles). I'm also advocating unbanning(s) before more bannings. But keep following me around and not actually reading or comprehending what I'm posting.
Reading. Is. Fundamental.
That's why I didn't say something like ... "Format diversity is defined as follows" this is a giant thread of opinions, started by an article which is an opinion piece on what legacy needs. WTF don't you understand?
Why you blatantly disregarded Zilla when he was completely right. There is such a thing as wrong opinions.
What you are complaining about is that some cards are very good staples that prevent other cards from being good. Yeah, my Tarmogoyf is going to overshadow someones Werebear, but that doesn't make the Tarmogoyf a ban worthy card.
You clearly don't want to read. You just bark one sentence responses with no content.
You don't even acknowledge that I advocate unbannings before bannings. You just see brainstorm somewhere in a post and you and/or your roommate snap_keep just blurt a brief pointless reply of something along the lines of, "you're a whiner", "you suck at magic", "pillar of the format", "skill intensive", "go play modern".
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=709621&pp=100
SnapKeep has 70 posts. All 8-10 word semi hostile replies with little or no content, usually involving white knighting brainstorm.
So I think it's time we just go on each others ignore lists. I am pointing out THE staple that crosses all archtypes of the format. Giving players a reason to not play it is "WHAT LEGACY NEEDS" in my opinion. Right now players largely (80% according to results) don't have a reason not to play it.
Tarmogoyf versus Werebear has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Tarmogoyf isn't played in the best combo deck, the best aggro deck and the best control deck.
There is deck diversity in legacy, more so than in any other format. Decks in Legacy aren't defined by what's in them, they are defined by what they do. There are no "Brainstorm Decks" in this format. There are only decks that include brainstorm. You just fundamentally disagree with the common perception that others view the format with.
No one cares that Brainstorm is around because it doesn't define strategies.
Brainstorm is
a) a fun card
b) a skillful card
c) a card that doesn't win by itself
d) a card that makes your other cards better
It is not the reason that Canadian Thresh or UW Miracles, UW/b Stoneblade or any combo decks are good decks.
History clearly shows this, since brainstorm has been legal since the beginning of the Legacy format, all we need to do is look back in time.
Landstill played 4 Brainstorms, but that didn't stop it from being pushed out of the format.
Threshold wasn't able to consistently beat Goblins before Tarmogoyf was printed, regardless of having brainstorm.
Early combo didn't run over the format because they had access to Brainstorm, and they are not doing it now.
Stoneblade wasn't a deck without stoneforge, Jace and batterskull, so clearly Brainstorm isn't an "enabler" here either.
UW Control likewise hasn't been good in quite some time, until Miracles were printed. Sure Brainstorm interacts with Miracles, but so does Top and Jace, and just ripping them off the top. Again this deck exists not because of brainstorm, but because of other cards.
Similarly, so called "Brainstorm Decks" weren't enough to stop Zoo when it was big, nor Merfolk (the curious non-brainstorm blue deck).
I would say that my honest evaluation is that the format is diverse not in spite of Brainstorm, but because of Brainstorm.
Brainstorm is just one tool in blue's arsenal, that while good, doesn't define the decks in this format, other cards do that, Brainstorm fills only a support role because it's the best support card, it's not as if ponder doesn't see heavy play as well.
With that said, I think we would all appreciate it if you'd direct your rhetoric to the correct thread and cease derailing this topic.
And to address the topic, I agree completely with the article, Griselbrand and Delver are some of the biggest mistakes that wizards have ever printed. However, Legacy has adapted, and this format's ability to adapt never ceases to amaze me.
- Oh the irony.
- Because that point isn't relevant in regard to me talking about your opinions on Brainstorm.You don't even acknowledge that I advocate unbannings before bannings.
- What the hell are you talking about?You just see brainstorm somewhere in a post and you and/or your roommate snap_keep just blurt a brief pointless reply of something along the lines of, "you're a whiner", "you suck at magic", "pillar of the format", "skill intensive", "go play modern".
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=709621&pp=100
SnapKeep has 70 posts. All 8-10 word semi hostile replies with little or no content, usually involving white knighting brainstorm.
- Yes, it's a good staple. People like to play good cards. Competitive players will gravitate towards the good cards. That's not necessarily bad at all. It's only bad when the result is less variety in decks. That's not the case.So I think it's time we just go on each others ignore lists. I am pointing out THE staple that crosses all archtypes of the format. Giving players a reason to not play it is "WHAT LEGACY NEEDS" in my opinion. Right now players largely (80% according to results) don't have a reason not to play it.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/met...y&fecha=2012-7
Goblins, Merfolk, and Maverick are three viable non-brainstorm decks.
Among the "brainstorm" decks, each deck that uses it is significantly different from the next. So deck variety is not an issue.
Again, stop pretending that a widely used card means that the meta is unhealthy.
- You're assuming that Brainstorm being a widely used staple makes it bad for the format. Please stop making that basic assumption for your arguments. I might give longer posts if you do so.Tarmogoyf versus Werebear has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Tarmogoyf isn't played in the best combo deck, the best aggro deck and the best control deck.
I would just like to echo the paying the same cards not making decks the same thoughts. I play a blue zoo deck that shares about 40 cards with the average RUG delver deck. It actually plays significantly differently in spite of that.
So you don't feel Legacy needs anything. You are fine with how it is and you present your opinions clearly (below). I respect that and at least you gave me something interesting to read.
I think no one is inaccurate, there are plenty of players who care one way or another that Brainstorm is around. There are people who feel it should be banned, others who claim they would quit if it were banned.No one cares that Brainstorm is around because it doesn't define strategies.
It enables almost all strategies (tribal and non-Magic decks like dredge or belcher excluded) which is something hardly any other colored card can boast.
Gush isBrainstorm is
a) a fun card
b) a skillful card
c) a card that doesn't win by itself
d) a card that makes your other cards better
a) a fun card
b) a skillful card
c) a card that doesn't win by itself
d) a card that makes your other cards better
You like brainstorm and then you roll out 3 other attributes of the card that many banned cards share. Why is brainstorm exempt? If anything I have to commit less deck building space to brainstorm than I do for something like Gush. Brainstorm is so easy to fit into anything not tribal playing island and not planning to cast chalice on 1.
It's a large part of why they can keep bad hands and still win. Which something like b/w or g/r can never do. Canadian Thresh can play a mathematically absurd mana base with 6-8 actual colored lands.It is not the reason that Canadian Thresh or UW Miracles, UW/b Stoneblade or any combo decks are good decks.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...2&iddeck=64894
Again opinions, but I feel like a deck like this is only navigating ~10 rounds on the back of brainstorm. Brainstorm is so format warping you can play 6 lands that make colored mana. Again fetchlands exacerbate this ... but I'm of the opinion that dual lands and fetchlands are a good thing for legacy.
Why would you ever play without it unless you were just a pile of men from the same tribe, or planning on sticking a chalice on 1 at the soonest possible moment.
Not sure why the brief tour of legacies history matters. The card pool has shifted so much I'm not certain it matters. The decline of zoo is mostly due to Delver being a better creature then anything G/R/W can muster at 1 mana. Mistep and SFM/Batterskull hurt it also, and it fell out of favor.History clearly shows this,
<list of decks that have used brainstorm>
Emphasis mine.Brainstorm is the tool in blue's arsenal, that while good, doesn't define the decks in this format, other cards do that,
What cards do then? What card defines a deck that can run 6 mana producing lands and win a ten round tourney? What card allows a deck full of terrible redundant combo pieces to navigate a tourney?
It's the best card in the format and it's choking decks down to 56 cards. Ponder would absolutely still be played if brainstorm were to go the way of Gush, and still be a fantastic card. It still wouldn't be brainstorm.Brainstorm fills only a support role because it's the best support card, it's not as if ponder doesn't see heavy play as well.
Sure, I don't hate the format. I also agree with much of the article, Delver is a huge mistake - I don't play standard so I'm not sure how he operates there (or will operate when the cantrips rotate). Griselbrand is certainly strong but unless something drastic happens at R&D I don't see them pumping out absurd EDH/Timmy fatties anytime soon. Oh and by the way ... every deck that plays Delver and Griselbrand also plays 4 ... nevermind.And to address the topic, I agree completely with the article, Griselbrand and Delver are some of the biggest mistakes that wizards have ever printed. However, Legacy has adapted, and this format's ability to adapt never ceases to amaze me.
A reminder that we have a ban thread for going in circles about whether Card X deserves the axe or not. Keep this thread about Carsten's article, which is about new set designs.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Would Natural Selection ever see play? I wish that card wasn't reserved.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
If it also drew a card, yes. A green Ponder/Portent could see play.
No, since it doesn't draw anything.
In addition to what others have said about it not drawing anything, you'd rather have Top in the decks that could run this because then you get to Select whenever you want. Actually, Sylvan Library functions in much the same way and already sees play as a 1- to 2-of in some decks.
As for library manipulation in other colors: we've already seen what red and black get, and one of white's things is not getting it (because of the color pie). I could see green getting something like:
Are You Pondering What I'm Pondering?
G
Sorcery
Choose a creature you control. Look at the top X cards of your library, where X is that creature's power, and put them back in any order. You may shuffle your library.
Draw a card.
Or something for black that's not as behind the curve as Night's Whisper or Sign in Blood:
Ouchies Ponder
B
Sorcery
Look at the top three cards of your library. For each card, you may pay two life. If you do, put it into your hand; if you don't, exile it.
The fact that blue's cantrips are both one mana and fairly unconditional to use is what sets them far ahead of the current manipulation options in other colors. It's worth noting that the non-blue library manipulation that does see play is either a form of tutor (GSZ) or provides recurring card advantage (Sylvan Library, Dark Confidant), which is not really comparable to the stuff blue's rocking.
@nedleeds
Responded in in the banned list speculation thread
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post665196
On topic, I don't think giving Library filtering to every color is necessarily the best way to go about it. GSZ is the kind of design that other colors need, something that increases consistency but is still in color.
I think they really need to push looting for Red.
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