All B/R update speculation.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

My friend, I think mana Drain would become a staple of Blue control behind FoW and BS and the undisputed "engine" of control. We might Not longer ask: do I run terminus, discard, counterbalance, explosives? No, all would Run drain (and side them out vs. Tempo), counter a Turn 3 Knight of the Reliquary, and hardcast SFM+Batterskull on turn 4 etc. Drain allows such splashy plays that i'm sure ist would be kill most of the other blue Control strategies.

Btw I never commented Griselbrand in any Post before. I just mentioned the repeating comparison between S&T with Tinker. Is tinker the stronger Single Card? Probably. Does ist have Anything to do with Legacy? No, that's the Point i endlessly repeat. I did Not comment S&T's strength in Legacy in any way so don't put words in my mouth, thanks

You know that we had mana drain's unbanning as well as S&T's banning as topics here lately, that's why i picked up both sperately before.

A thumb up @ Dark Ritual being able to differ 1-Card-combos from 2-Card-Combos ;P

So what? Who cares if there's a good blue control deck? Mana Drain was legal in 1.5 and it was fine, and that format was way slower. The only good argument against unbanning Mana Drain is the money issue, but MD isn't even on the reserve list. Print it in another set.

And yes, you did in fact defend the fairness of SnT compared to cards like Mana Drain so I'm going to bring up the dissonance.

[Lemnear]

I'm in totally agreement with you Joe. I felt the format was terrible, I was bringing up the point to Lemnear about the interaction of Snapcaster and MM.

I totally got it but it's WotC's fault to design and release a Card like SCM right after an expansion with Free-mechanics and into the eternal metagame build around 1cc-spells. Moreover, Snapcaster should have been costed RR, period.

The idea of Misstep was indeed a good one, we can obvious discuss about the execution. I'm not kinda nostalgic about a card barely legal for 3 months.



@IBA: i still have no idea where I should have discussed Mana Drain and S&T in the same sentence and compared them.

I did pick up the often repeated "S&T is like Tinker" as well as the claim read here that "mana Drain is safe for Legacy". I revealed why i disagree with both statements. I did Not even mention/discuss Griselbrand like you intended before.

If I say "S&T is weaker as tinker as a card" it has nothing to do with my opinion that Mana Drain would Significantly impact legacy's Control decks with it's power to counter a threat and respond with your own the Following turn with mana Open instead of draggin the Game forever to have like 6+ lands to achieve the same. My thesis is that in that scenario it's more "appealing" to overpower your opponent with mana drain instead of just answering again and again.

That's all i did say



Btw. Why you bring up a another format to discuss Legacy? I said 2 Pages ago that this makes no sense at all. Shall i start Proving points with the help of the time while 20x Black Lotus 40x Lightning Bolt was a legal Deck? Mishras Workshop was legal in 1.5 too btw. Does this mean that it's save with all the artifacts of today? Lol

[edgarps22]

I think Misstep could see a return at some point. Cavern of Souls exists now and is being run in the aggro decks that Misstep hurt the most, and that is a huge swing. I think it could reopen the floodgates to playable archetypes due to that fact alone, it would then no longer be able to counter most creatures you really want in play. It would certainly shake things up again, Reanimator would be worse off, as would RUG for sure, even though both of those would also run Misstep it would dilute their deck a bit more with an added counterspell. Maybe I am not seeing everything right, perhaps Snapcaster + Mental Misstep would be too powerful, maybe it wouldn't due to Cavern helping creature strategies survive in that metagame. I'd be up for Misstep era 2.0.

[Leftconsin]

The huge problem of what could come off is the fact that on average less than two cards are unbanned per year. And most of those are the obvious unbans that don't do anything to the format. Relatively recent bannings like Mistep and Survival aren't coming off until we have Earthcraft, Vice, and probably Twist off.

[rxavage]

I think Misstep could see a return at some point. Cavern of Souls exists now and is being run in the aggro decks that Misstep hurt the most, and that is a huge swing. I think it could reopen the floodgates to playable archetypes due to that fact alone, it would then no longer be able to counter most creatures you really want in play. It would certainly shake things up again, Reanimator would be worse off, as would RUG for sure, even though both of those would also run Misstep it would dilute their deck a bit more with an added counterspell. Maybe I am not seeing everything right, perhaps Snapcaster + Mental Misstep would be too powerful, maybe it wouldn't due to Cavern helping creature strategies survive in that metagame. I'd be up for Misstep era 2.0.

Reanimator did quite well in the Misstep era and ran it as well. I don't know how well the deck would fair with Snapcaster in the format now but I know it would help out SneakShow a little. Misstep on Spell Pierce, StP, pitching to FoW and Misdirection etc.

[Ignithas_]

So what? Who cares if there's a good blue control deck? Mana Drain was legal in 1.5 and it was fine, and that format was way slower. The only good argument against unbanning Mana Drain is the money issue, but MD isn't even on the reserve list. Print it in another set.

And yes, you did in fact defend the fairness of SnT compared to cards like Mana Drain so I'm going to bring up the dissonance.

Mana Drain was fine while the control/slow tempo decks didn't have so cheap game winning cards. When your two drop gets countered and you face an oposing Jace with one mana open and an Brainstorm ability to get the counterspells/removal he needs is opressive. Same goes with a hardcasted Batterskull.
And Mana Drain makes the Miracle cards much more powerfull, because of the possibility to hardcast them is getting much higher with 4 Mana Drain.
Plus it creates again situations where you will have several disadvantages only because you don't play U and don't have free counterspells. And you can't do anything against it, not even play situational cards.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Speculative nonsense. Honestly, cards are banned for much more material reasons than they might enable a turn 3 hardcast Jace or Batterskull. Show and Tell enables a turn 2-3 Emrakul.

And I'm not sure if there's a good reason to ban Mishra's Workshop. What's been printed since then that's so busted? Forgemaster and Wurmcoil I guess? I'm not particularly swayed. Workshop could be unbanned for all I care.

The only power card of 1.5 that's gotten significantly better is Bazaar.

[DragoFireheart]

Talk about banning Brainstorm here.

I'd rather no one talks about banning Brainstorm. I've yet to see a single good argument beyond "It's too good!"

The only power card of 1.5 that's gotten significantly better is Bazaar.

- I'd rather not see Dredge abuse that card in Legacy was well. It can stay banned in Vintage land.

[bruizar]

I'd rather no one talks about banning Brainstorm. I've yet to see a single good argument beyond "It's too good!"



- I'd rather not see Dredge abuse that card in Legacy was well. It can stay banned in Vintage land.

Besides dredge, I could see Vengevine making waves again with Bazaar unbanned. That, and perhaps some worldgorger dragon build.

[DragoFireheart]

Besides dredge, I could see Vengevine making waves again with Bazaar unbanned. That, and perhaps some worldgorger dragon build.

Except the dragonis banned.

Vengevine loses to graveyard hate pretty easily. Veggies is dead for now.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Speculative nonsense. Honestly, cards are banned for much more material reasons than they might enable a turn 3 hardcast Jace or Batterskull. Show and Tell enables a turn 2-3 Emrakul.

And I'm not sure if there's a good reason to ban Mishra's Workshop. What's been printed since then that's so busted? Forgemaster and Wurmcoil I guess? I'm not particularly swayed. Workshop could be unbanned for all I care.

The only power card of 1.5 that's gotten significantly better is Bazaar.

Yeah because Legacy is ready for reliable turn 1 3Sphere, turn 2 Wurmcoil. That is a totally fun format i can't wait to play...

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

And I'm not sure if there's a good reason to ban Mishra's Workshop. What's been printed since then that's so busted? Forgemaster and Wurmcoil I guess? I'm not particularly swayed. Workshop could be unbanned for all I care.

4x Trinisphere sounds like a good enough reason.

Edit: D'oh...beaten to the punch.

[DragoFireheart]

Yeah because Legacy is ready for reliable turn 1 3Sphere, turn 2 Wurmcoil. That is a totally fun format i can't wait to play...

- Oh yeah, forgot about sphere.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/met...e&fecha=2012-7

Yeah, let MUD stay in Vintage.

[Shion]

Responding to nedleeds here from this Post.

So you don't feel Legacy needs anything. You are fine with how it is and you present your opinions clearly (below). I respect that and at least you gave me something interesting to read.

I actually do believe legacy needs some stuff, Red needs good spells and good efficient non-tribal creatures, Black just needs some better creatures.

I think no one is inaccurate, there are plenty of players who care one way or another that Brainstorm is around. There are people who feel it should be banned, others who claim they would quit if it were banned.

It enables almost all strategies (tribal and non-Magic decks like dredge or belcher excluded) which is something hardly any other colored card can boast.

I honestly believe that the haters and defenders of brainstorm are outliers. Most of the people who have publicly stated they would quit Legacy if Brainstorm were banned are not defending the card itself, but rather the idea that cards in legacy, especially really old format staples, don't need to be banned in an eternal format.

They believe that banning of cards are mostly unnecessary, and that to do so would diminish this format and cater to the minority of players who think color diversity is the only diversity, or those who just hate blue.

Gush is
a) a fun card
b) a skillful card
c) a card that doesn't win by itself
d) a card that makes your other cards better

You like brainstorm and then you roll out 3 other attributes of the card that many banned cards share. Why is brainstorm exempt? If anything I have to commit less deck building space to brainstorm than I do for something like Gush. Brainstorm is so easy to fit into anything not tribal playing island and not planning to cast chalice on 1.

I don't actually "like" brainstorm, It doesn't get my rocks off when I cast it. However, I also do not wish to play in either a watered down format or a broken format. Legacy walks this line. It's the formats goal as an Eternal format.

The difference between Gush and Brainstorm is a HUGE difference in power. 3 card filtering alone at 1 mana is really good, but it is not card advantage. It is also definitely not comparable to free card advantage. Gush is a whole different animal, and while it's subjective, most people agree that Gush is on a whole other level than brainstorm.

It's a large part of why they can keep bad hands and still win. Which something like b/w or g/r can never do. Canadian Thresh can play a mathematically absurd mana base with 6-8 actual colored lands.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...2&iddeck=64894

Again opinions, but I feel like a deck like this is only navigating ~10 rounds on the back of brainstorm. Brainstorm is so format warping you can play 6 lands that make colored mana. Again fetchlands exacerbate this ... but I'm of the opinion that dual lands and fetchlands are a good thing for legacy.

What you have here is an intrinsic misunderstanding of the deck design for Canadian threshold. The whole deck has been designed to function on 2 lands. The consistency does not rely solely on brainstorm, but being built around 1 mana spells, fetchlands, and a extensive cantrip suite. Brainstorm facilitates this but so does Ponder, Portent, Serum Visions et al.

Why would you ever play without it unless you were just a pile of men from the same tribe, or planning on sticking a chalice on 1 at the soonest possible moment.

Because your not using Blue. This is where R&D should be focusing.

Not sure why the brief tour of legacies history matters. The card pool has shifted so much I'm not certain it matters. The decline of zoo is mostly due to Delver being a better creature then anything G/R/W can muster at 1 mana. Mistep and SFM/Batterskull hurt it also, and it fell out of favor.

That's the point. All the major shifts in the format had nothing to do with Brainstorm. For such an Ubiquitous card that you've claimed has defined and enabled strategies it has been irrelevant in the metagame shift of the Legacy format as a whole.

What cards do then? What card defines a deck that can run 6 mana producing lands and win a ten round tourney? What card allows a deck full of terrible redundant combo pieces to navigate a tourney?

Synergy defines Storm Combo and Thresh in Legacy, not any particular card. They have been built, and rebuilt, reworked and retooled until they are well oiled machines. Their consistency is not based on any one card, brainstorm only makes up a small part of their whole, it exists in them because it is both available and good.

It's the best card in the format and it's choking decks down to 56 cards. Ponder would absolutely still be played if brainstorm were to go the way of Gush, and still be a fantastic card. It still wouldn't be brainstorm.

It's not "Choking" any deck. It certainly isn't even effecting the decks not playing blue. That argument has no bearing, and no depth. It can be used on any ubiquitous card in any format. The only thing you achieve by removing Brainstorm from the format is you make decks worse, you make the card pool worse, and for a lot of people you make the format worse.

Sure, I don't hate the format. I also agree with much of the article, Delver is a huge mistake - I don't play standard so I'm not sure how he operates there (or will operate when the cantrips rotate). Griselbrand is certainly strong but unless something drastic happens at R&D I don't see them pumping out absurd EDH/Timmy fatties anytime soon. Oh and by the way ... every deck that plays Delver and Griselbrand also plays 4 ... nevermind.

Non sequitur

[Zilla]

What card defines a deck that can run 6 mana producing lands and win a ten round tourney? What card allows a deck full of terrible redundant combo pieces to navigate a tourney?

That's precisely the point. Brainstorm allows otherwise unviable decks to be viable. It's very likely the number one reason for Legacy's incredible diversity in playable deck types. And what's the drawback? You have to run Islands? So what? You have Fetchlands and Duals for that, which you've already stated you think are good for the format. The reason Brainstorm isn't a problem is because it enables every archetype equally.

[Lemnear]

Speculative nonsense. Honestly, cards are banned for much more material reasons than they might enable a turn 3 hardcast Jace or Batterskull. Show and Tell enables a turn 2-3 Emrakul.

And I'm not sure if there's a good reason to ban Mishra's Workshop. What's been printed since then that's so busted? Forgemaster and Wurmcoil I guess? I'm not particularly swayed. Workshop could be unbanned for all I care.

The only power card of 1.5 that's gotten significantly better is Bazaar.

So Turn 1 Trinisphere/Lodestone/Thorn of amethyst/Sphere of resistance/Chalice of The Void/Crucible of Worlds/whole Mirrodin Blocks is ok but a possible turn 2-3 S&T isn't ... alright. I'm amazed how you try to ignore 8 years of Magic cards printed just to prove me wrong.



More Turn 2 plays possible With workshop since 1.5:

Sword of x & y including equip
precursor golemn
solemn simulacrum
Forgemaster
Wurmcoil
Steel hellkite
Revoker
Uba Mask+Bazaar
Batterskull

[Koby]

My favorite Turn 1 Workshop play is:

Torpor Orb
Phyrexian Dreadnought

Or everyone's favorite:

Workshop -> Painter + Grindstone, LED, win the game.

[joemauer]

Anyone who has played half a game with or against vintage MUD realizes why Workshop doesn't need to be in Legacy. Quite the jump in power level there.

I do think Mana Drain would be fine(currently) in Legacy. Would need a reprint to keep it affordable but that is the only real problem with the card.

[dontbiteitholmes]

My favorite Turn 1 Workshop play is:

Torpor Orb
Phyrexian Dreadnought

Or everyone's favorite:

Workshop -> Painter + Grindstone, LED, win the game.

I still like Workshop Trinisphere. Unless you are playing the mirror or Dredge with Bazaars the win % if it lands is probably around 90%.

[Koby]

I still like Workshop Trinisphere. Unless you are playing the mirror or Dredge with Bazaars the win % if it lands is probably around 90%.

16% of the time it works 90% of time, everytime!

(~40% chance of seeing any given 4 of in an opening hand*)

* including a mull down to 1